Talk:Legal education in the United States
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[edit] JD versus LLB
Irishtimes 02:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)--Irishtimes 02:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC) The JD is regarded as a graduate degree in American universities -- of this there is no doubt. But to suggest that the JD is academically superior to the British LLB is another matter. The basis for this claim is that the JD requires a degree for entrance, whereas the LLB is undertaken in the UK from the age of 18. Note that medical education for doctors in the UK also begins at age 18 -- and, similarly, British doctors graduate with a Bacheolor of Medicine (MB) degree rather than a Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree. In the UK, the MD is a higher degree (a clinical doctorate) requiring research and a dissertation (and requires both medical degrees and professional clinical qualifications, plus experience in practice, for admission). --Irishtimes 02:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
- I have been in a Bachelor of Arts program (languages) (B.A. 1972), a Ph.D. program (German and linguistics), a J.D. program (J.D. 1981), and a community college program (24 semester hours).
- There is a difference. All graduate programs are taught at a substantially more intense level. Undergraduate programs can't be taught at that level because almost no undergrad could handle it. More material is taught in a shorter time, the material is taught more in depth and the student is required to perform to much higher standards. Master's level courses are taught at a more intense level than undergraduate courses and doctoral courses are taught at a more intense level than Masters. Here are two examples:
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- I attended the Ph.D. program at City University of New York (CUNY) Graduate Center for a year. CUNY has a number of campuses throughout the five counties of New York City. One of my classmates wanted to take a course at a different campus. It was the same course number but was listed as part of that campus' master's degree program. He was told he could take the course under three conditions: (1) The professor had to be someone who taught in the doctoral program; (2) the course had to be listed as an available course in the doctoral program (i.e., if Post-WWII German Poetry was offered in the master's program but not the doctoral program, it would not qualify) and (3) in addition to all the course requirements for the master's program he would have to do an additional paper.
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- When I attended law school, my landlord was studying for his Bachelor of Nursing degree. He said that the same class was listed as three different courses, under three different course numbers: (1) an undergrad Biology course, (2) an undergrad Nursing course and (3) an M.D. program course. He said the only difference was the grading. The Nursing students were graded harsher than the Bio students and the M.D. students were graded hardest.
- I can tell you from personal experience that the level of performance required for coursework in a Ph.D. program at a major American university is nowhere near as stringent as an American J.D. program. Several of my classmates who had done substantial coursework at the Ph.D. level said the same thing. Entrants to a J.D. program are expected to already have the writing and analytical skills and well-rounded educational background of a top-level college graduate, whereas Bachelor's programs, even in law, endeavor to create those skills.
- Another thing to consider is that the American system has no choice but to be better because there is so much more competition. The American legal system allows lawyers to handle cases on a contingent-fee basis. If someone gets hurt in an automobile accident, he doesn't need to have money to hire a lawyer, and if the lawyer recovers nothing there is no legal fee. As a result, America has about ninety percent of all the litigation in the entire world. I'm not going to get into the pro's and con's of that arrangement, but it does mean that there are far more lawyers, so there are far more highly-trained people examining a problem from every little angle. In the U.S., pretty much every lawyer is now a specialist. In an area where most of the lawyers are generalists, a Bachelor's level of knowledge is sufficient. But in an area where almost everyone is a specialist, the starting level needs to be much greater.
- Keep in mind that the real goal is learning to "think like a lawyer". That requires about 18 months of full-time legal study, regardless of the person's previous education. Although an American lawyer fresh out of law school with a J.D. would be more qualified than a British solicitor straight out of school with an LLB, later on at the same age the solicitor would have 3 years of additional experience. Also, the reality is that most law is learned after law school. Five years after graduation, either one of them probably would know about the same amount in their field(s) of practice.
- RickReinckens 06:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A note to whoever changed graduate to postbaccalaureate:
A postbaccalaureate degree is a second baccalaureate. Historically, a law student would attend a four-year undergraduate program culminating in a LL.B., a baccalaureate degree. In the U.S. this is no longer the case (see Juris Doctor). A J.D. is not considered to be a baccalaureate degree, rather it is a graduate degree, which students embark upon only after completing an undergraduate program.
- I'm reverting the article back to say "postbaccalaureate". A Juris Doctor was a vanity term (putting it bluntly) introduced in the U.S. to replace the identical credential, the Bachelor of Laws degree, to recognize that LL.B. degree holders had more or less the same time invested in education after high school as M.D. degree holders. Even before the change to J.D. (and likewise after the change), the LL.B. or J.D. program (regardless of its name) was a three year program following a bachelor's degree in another discipline (or 2 or 3 years study towards same). However, neither the Juris Doctor nor the M.D. are graduate degrees. Graduate medical studies begin after the M.D. degree with residency training and possibly M.Sc. and Ph.D. studies. Likewise, the degree LL.M. follows the J.D. Some universities will allow J.D. and M.D. students to join the university's Graduate Students Society out of courtesy even though not graduate students. Some universities call the J.D. and M.D. degrees "professional degrees" to recognize the aggregate study time involved compared to bachelor's degree programs directly open to high school graduates.
--Aquarius rising 00:16, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Be careful not to clump US and UK law training into one bunch. UK law training is at the undergraduate level and leads to a bachelor's degree in law (LL.B), whereas US law training is a three year graduate program leading to a Juris Doctor (J.D.). The Canadian LL.B may be superior to the UK LL.B, but it is still a bachelor's degree and can be entered into after only two years of undergraduate study. The US rightly considers its law program far superior to that of other countries. I think you will find that all U.S. Universities consider the J.D. to be a graduate degree. Here Berkeley clearly states that a J.D. is a graduate degree & all Law Schools in the US consider the J.D. to be a graduate degree.
Unless you can site some authority that maintains the Juris Doctor is a vanity term for a bachelors degree, please allow this article to refer the the J.D. as a professional or graduate degree. I understand that from your POV the Canadian LL.B and the American J.D. are remarkably similar. From my POV there are important differences between the two degrees. In any case, US universities and law schools consider the J.D. to be a graduate degree. This article is about education of lawyers in the US, so it only seems prudent to use US terminology. The UK LL.B is clearly a bachelors, the Canadian LL.B shares many similarities with the J.D. degree. If you want to start an article about Canadian POV regarding the J.D., I think it would make for an interesting read. I don't think, however, that this is the appropriate article to espouse Canadian POV that conflicts with US degree naming conventions. An M.D. is not a bachelors degree, a J.D. is not a bachelors degree. A Medical Doctor (M.D.) and a Juris Doctor (J.D.) are professional degrees of the graduate level.
To be perfectly clear, graduate programs are those which require a person already have obtained a bachelors degree before they begin. Baccalaureate programs are embarked upon solely at the undergraduate level. Postbaccalaureate programs are those which are embarked upon by graduates even though they are available to undergraduates.
The degree of Bachelor of Laws (LL.B) in most common law countries can be embarked upon by those who have only completed a high school level education. Generally, the LL.B is equivalent to a B.A., B.S., or B.F.A. in terms of education (4-5 years undergraduate study). In the US many schools offer a Bachelors of Arts in Legal Studies. LL.B stands for Legum Baccalaureus in Latin. The J.D., on the other hand, is only available to those who have already completed a baccalaureate degree in another subject. J.D. stands for Juris Doctor in Latin. A Juris Doctor is a graduate degree in law.
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- It is not true that "many schools offer a Bachelor of Arts in Legal Studies". Name ten. Yes, some do. Degrees with similar titles are paralegal degrees, not law degrees.
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- The J.D. degree does not require completion of a baccalaureate degree in another subject. Neither does an M.D., a D.V.M. or a D.D.S. that is a common misconception. All of those degrees only require three years of undergrad coursework. (about 90 semester hours) Check the Education Code of various states.
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- Regarding "graduate degree in law", we are "talking apples and oranges". A J.D. is a "graduate degree". It is not a "graduate degree in law." It is an "first-professional" doctorate, which means, yes, it is a graduate degree. It is not a graduate degree "in law" because it requires no prior education in law. An LLM and a JSD are graduate degrees in law. Check the definitions in the New York State Education Code at the link I added in References.
- RickReinckens 06:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I’m not saying that the J.D. isn’t a valuable credential. I agree that, like the M.D., D.D.S., etc, the J.D. is a first-professional doctorate. What I’m questioning are the assertions that the J.D. or for that matter, an M.D. or a D.D.S. degree, is a “graduate” degree.
For example, the Yale University law school site [1] is pretty specific that graduate degrees in law are the LL.M. degree and higher. The J.D. degree offered by Yale is not included in the list of graduate law degrees.
As well, for example, Harvard University law school’s site, University of Chicago’s law school’s website and University of Michigan law school’s site are consistent with Yale’s in this regard, i.e., that graduate degrees in law start at LL.M and don’t include the J.D. degree as a graduate degree in law. See: [2], [3] and [4].
By the way, the website of University of California at Berkeley is mentioned in support of a J.D. being a “graduate degree”. However, I took the next logical step and looked on the site of UC Berkeley’s law school itself. Unfortunately, UC Berkeley’s law school doesn’t seem to offer any LL.M. or higher law degrees, so I couldn’t compare against Yale, etc. in terms of how what the law school considers a “graduate degree” in law.
In light of the Berkeley site versus the Yale, Harvard, Chicago and Michigan law school sites, I submit it can be safely said that U.S. universities themselves are not in consensus as to whether a J.D. degree is or isn't a "graduate degree in law".
I'll be revising the article accordingly. --Aquarius rising 01:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
The reason the J.D. is absent from these lists is that in order to undertake a "graduate law degree" one must be a "graduate" of law school.
To be eligible to apply for the LL.M., S.J.D., J.S.D. etc., one must already have obtained a J.D. or foreign equivalent. That is why these degrees are called graduate law degrees; one must have already graduated from law school to apply. The J.D. is indeed a graduate degree in law, it is not however a graduate law degree (implying one already has a J.D.).
US News & World Reports list law schools as graduate schools.
Kaplan lists law school as a graduate program: look under graduate programs.
I understand that in England that the training for lawyers in general is different for the training of lawyers that practice in the court room. The training for the lawyers that actually represent people in court is conducted at a considerably higher standard. Can someone please go into some detail here?
To avoid the type of confusion you have with a graduate program after a graduate degree some schools simply use the term Post-Graduate. The reason that many schools simply call these post-J.D. degrees "graduate degrees" is to reflect the fact that these programs are available to foreign applicants without graduate degrees.
Here, here, here, & here you see lists of undergraduate and graduate programs, and like Berkeley they list the law school as a graduate program. All universities list law school as either a professional program or a graduate program. I can find no exceptions to this rule.
In the United States, professional degrees refer to graduate degrees that are specific to a particular vocation, or profession. Law school, medical school and architecture school are all examples of institutions where professional degrees can be earned. It is simply a fact that law schools in the United States are considered graduate programs, or if you like, graduate level professional programs. Some law schools and universities in the United States refer to the J.D. by the Latin, Juris Doctor; however, many use the English translation, Doctorate of Jurisprudence. The only level of degrees conferred by U.S. law schools are master and doctorate level degrees.
I suggest we resolve our differences by simply omitting the POV distinction of graduate school vs. professional school from this article.
I'll be revising the article accordingly, I hope this meets your satisfaction.
There are no longer any references to graduate school in this article.
- It would be useful for the article to retain the NPOV distinction of graduate school vs. professional school. Otherwise, someone else (without knowledge of this discussion) will come along and assert that a J.D. degree is a graduate degree.
--Aquarius rising 02:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Is the following language neutral/informative enough to suit you?
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- A law school is usually an autonomous entity within a larger university and is generally considered to be a professional school program. Some universities categorize their law schools as graduate programs but most opt to refer to them as professional programs.
[edit] Proposed Merger:
Bear in mind that the Juris Doctor degree is not exclusive to the United States. Graduates of Canada's University of Toronto law school receive a J.D. as well. However, it is the only law school in Canada to do so, to my knowledge. (posted by user Nmarritz)
It is correct that the University of Toronto is currently the only Canadian school that offers a Juris Doctor degree but other Canadian schools are considering it. Western University, for example, recently had a reforendum and the students voted in favour of offering a J.D. Some prominent Australian universities also offer students the option of recieving a J.D. (examples include Bond, Beirne and Melbourne). (posted by user Turtleneck)
Isn't "Education of Lawyers in the United States" pretty much synonymous with American law school? Also, the bar exam is not part of legal education; it is about accreditation following law school. It seems to me this article should be merged into law school & bar examination. I can't see any reason for it to exist on its own, unless it was changed into a simple explanation of the process of becoming a lawyer with links to the various stages. (posted by user Laerien)
- I think this article should remain separate from law school, but I agree that you have a point that some of this information could be transferred over there, and law school and bar examination could become "subarticles" of this article (because at least as currently composed, they are strongly American-focused). Maybe the article title should be changed to Education and training of lawyers in the United States. That would be more in compliance with the Manual of Style guideline that only the first word and proper nouns should be in uppercase, not all nouns. --Coolcaesar 11:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree with merger but agree with Coolcaesar I DavidKinnen did make a mistake in the name and it should be changed to a more appropriate title. I created this article to tidy up the huge Lawyer article, which is expanding yet again. Certainly hive off parts to law school and bar examination and make this the main page on Education and training of lawyers in the United States. Davidkinnen 10:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with merging Juris Doctor into Education of Lawyers. The Juris Doctor article is already quite lengthy. Merging it into something else will only make things worse.
The Juris Doctor article mainly deals with matters that are tangential to "Education of Lawyers", e.g., other degrees that might be confused with the J.D., the history of the J.D. degree specifically, how society and academia view a J.D. compared to a Ph.D., proper use of titles such as Doctor, Barrister, etc., for someone with a J.D. degree. I have already added Paraprofessional Degrees and Executive Juris Doctor degrees to the JD article, as well as a lot of other info.
The "Education of Lawyers" article needs to be broken up. It contains a lot of good material but is too long and a lot of the material really stands on its own. For instance, "Lawyer Credentials, prestige and career paths" should be separate but what would the title be as an article?
RickReinckens 07:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the merger. The Juris Doctor degree is not synonymous with Legal education in the United States. Other degrees are awarded by American law schools (e.g. the LL.M.). I do think a title change is a good idea, however, it might be better to remove parts of the article that are redundant with "J.D." and "Law School" before the name change.
I am by no means an expert as to any of this (simply another kid working on a J.D.), but it seems to me that the problem you are all falling on is the simple fact that each country/jurisdiction (as far as procedural issues go)/AREA, use both different nomenclature for similar levels of study as well as different relative measures, in terms of years of study, for a given degree. In order to acheive any amount of clarity it seems that the best course of action would be to separate the descriptions of legal study by country, or in the alternative, if there are multiple definitions within a single country, by area or jurisdiction. We are obviously trying give multiple entities the same name here. This won't work, we are running into a wall in dealing with the different variations of the same word/title. That is all.
- Strong disagree with any mergers to Admission to the bar in the United States, Law school in the United States or Juris Doctor (as currently appears on top of the article. I have made separate arguments on each on their talk pages, save for JD which I will simply say has more than enough info to keep on its own. --Bobak 21:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This could be a much better resource
Much of the information here does overlap with the "Law Schools in the United States" page, but nevertheless provides a good overview of legal education generally. I think this could be cleaned up a lot. Fortunately, some of the tone has recently been changed -- much of it sounded cynical and smacked of bitterness, but that seems to have changed a bit. A lot of the information could be better organized, and a number of links could be added.
Some additions and expansions might include: - The differences between clinical education and doctrinal education - Clerkships as a source of education - Continuing Legal Education (CLE) requirements - Law school education and law review - Interdisciplinary changes in legal education
There's probably too much info about salaries and firms for an entry about legal education -- so maybe some of the info here could be grouped with "Law Schools" and the rest made into "Legal Jobs" (law firms, salaries, public interest, etc.)?
- I agree, there's very little about the actual legal education process, the information deals mostly with what law school students between semesters and after they finish school. Much work is needed. Bjsiders 12:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discuss: Moving "Admission" section to "Bar_admission"
The Admission information on this page duplicates that on the Bar_admission page and its progeny. I suggest we eliminate it from this page and simply link to that page rewinn 22:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discuss Focus of Article
- Legal education would seem to include CLE, LPOs, paralegals, citizen law education (e.g. Law Week) et cetera.
- If article is only about pre-practice education of lawyers, it would need retitling ...but probably not be very interesting.
- Much of the content seems related to how the legal profession relates to credential, what it's like working in mega-firms, et cetera. These are all interesting but .... the article seems scattered. What is its focus?
- Admission to the bar in the United States already deals in detail with admission, so I deleted most of it here. Let me know if you think otherwise rewinn 05:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Upper Echelon
I agree with Peyna that there is "no need to turn this into a list of the top 50 univeristies in the country." However this section currently only lists the top 6 law schools. Although experts like Brian Leiter consider these schools to be clearly superior to the rest of the top 14 or 20, the article should mention the concept of T14 or T20. Although it's possible to get a big firm job from lower-ranked schools, many people/firms recognize the top 14 as placing well nationally at prestigious firms. See the corresponding section in Law School Rankings. Redkern 17:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Since it is covered in Law School Rankings perhaps we shouldn't bother listing any schools here and just direct the reader there, since otherwise it would be difficult to make any kind of NPOV decision about which schools to include without including them all. Peyna 20:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree that it's not necessary to list schools, and think they could be taken out and replaced with a link to the Rankings page. However, I think that either the upper echelon section or the rankings page needs to list the top 14 schools to show which schools are being talked about when discussing the top 14. Whether or not the concept of the top 14 has validity as a measure of success or quality, the Rankings page has enough citations to show that it is a common way of defining the top law schools. Since the top 14 is used as a definition of both the upper echelon and the highest ranked law schools, I think discussion of the top 14 should be retained on both the rankings page and upper echelon section regardless of whether the top 14 schools are named in both articles. Redkern 17:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "Most legal professionals (judges, practitioners, or professors) rank the University of Chicago, Columbia, Harvard, NYU, Stanford, and Yale in the top echelon of American law schools." This is incorrect. I have examined USNWR reputation scores from judges/lawyers and academics for the past 8 years. In the past 8 years, NYU has never ranked higher than Michigan in reputation scores by lawyer/judges or academcis. The list should be Chicago, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Michigan.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.61.158.236 (talk • contribs).
- Unfortunately, I can only see the top two listings completely on their website. Do you have anyway that we can verify your claim? Peyna 13:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- I went to the library and dug up the back issues for the past 8 years. I'm not sure there is any place online that would have that information since it is copyrighted with US News.
- You are looking at the "peer ranking" scores, and not just the overall ranking, correct? Peyna 21:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- I went to the library and dug up the back issues for the past 8 years. I'm not sure there is any place online that would have that information since it is copyrighted with US News.
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- Yes, correct. For example, in 2005 Michigan's lawyer/judge score was 4.6, and NYU's 4.4. Peer (academic) scores were the same for the two schools, 4.5. In USNWR overall score, NYU was ranked higher (5th v. 8th I think).
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[edit] The large firm environment
I would like to explain my changes to this section. First, the title "Length of typical workweek at megafirms" is only appropriate to the first sentence and does not accurately include the content of the remainder of this section. Second, although some associates work 80 or more hours a week, this is not the average at large firms. That this is not just personal experience is independently verified by the two citations. The first shows that the average associate hours per week (not just hours billed) range from 49 at Chapman and Cutler to 71 at Wachtell. The second examines how one bills 1800-2200 hours per year. Third, I removed the quotation marks from "megafirms" because the use of quotation marks was inconsistent and distracting. Redkern 14:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merger with Law school in the United States, redux
I propose taking the section on school rankings and credentials (law review, etc.) and merging them into Law school in the United States. They're duplicative here and as a comment on Talk:Law school in the United States noted, they have more to do with the school rather than education. I suppose a section on judicial clerkships can stay, since they've already graduated law school. Wl219 07:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bias in some sections
Some sections of this article are clearly biased, such as the Lawyer credentials, prestige, and career path section. It sounds like a disgruntled law student wrote it. Other sections have some POV. If someone could find references for more information in this article and reduce the bias, that'd be great. ~MDD4696 16:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)