Talk:Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path

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[edit] Archives

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[edit] western

This new version of the article is 100 % western, I don't like it. ~August

You're welcome to change it. For my part, I don't see any information on the usage of the terms in the east in the old article that isn't in this one. -Didactohedron 21:03, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

The focus now is on self vs. collective. That is western. Eastern is yin and yang style, passive/active, the quick easy way or the way of strife and effort, intuition or logic, kundalini or hatha yoga, nerves or muscles. ~August

It would be nice if someone that knew anything about the eastern thinking on the left hand path could write a section on it. I myself have only knowledge about the western view on the left hand path. I'm sure they are both ways of thinking that exist seperatly, and they most likely put different meanings to the same phrase. It will simply take someone with knowledge of what the eastern left hand path is to add that information.
-kooR deR
I'm sorry, but I don't follow your reasoning August. Could you please try to explain it differently, or make the necessary additions to the article? I'm very happy w the article as it now stands, BTW, great work Didactohedron! Sam [Spade] 03:15, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Again. This is absolutely brilliant work. I appreciate keeping the list of religions in either column, as it preserves some of the original article and is a good primer for the belief system these words are a part of. Re- August, the focus is now on fact, which is the m.o. here. db 09:25, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to Sam and db for the praise. I updated the article with some information about the usage of the terms in Tantra. Better, August? -Didactohedron 06:30, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)


Is Vajrayana really Left-Hand Path? I have been practing at one such center and it sure does not seem to be the case. I do not deny the existence of LHV, but it is certainly not the only variety, and probably isn't even the most widespread. Similarly, I don't think Mahayana Buddhism qualifies as LHP either, although by definition Hinayana would. Luis Dantas 17:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Reply to Luis Dantas: Specifically, Kargyu and Nyingma, both parts of Vajrayana, are definitely LHP - and Tatar Lamaism (or Shamanism) is also LHP and quite different from Tibetan "Buddhism" despite its being lumped in with it and despite the two people often sharing temples in the USA where some of both groups immigrated. In the Tatar Buddhism/Lamaism, for example, warriors and war lords (such as Temujin "Jenghis Khan" and Amursana) are given the status of Khutukhtu (Living Gods). There are absolutely no prohibitions against eating anything, especially meat, or drinking anything, including kumiss - a beverage that makes 100 proof Vodka seem tame. Social customs do not infringe on the religion at all. There are laws, not taboos. A law breaker faces jail, very practical. A law breaker may be an Adept. It doesn't matter. LHP is the way of yin, of the inner or hidden. RHP is the way of yang or outer path. From T. Jantsang

I respectfully (but emphatically) disagree. In fact, this article as a whole displays some rather surprising opinions about Buddhism. I guess LHP-RHP distinctions do not really apply neatly to that religion. In fact, I wonder if they apply to any healthy religion (or for that matter, any healthy practicioner) at all. Luis Dantas 17:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
The more I research, the more certain I am that LHP-RHP are a western (and modern) invention. Are there ANY sources documenting the supposed LHP nature of some oriental and/or ancient religions? Luis Dantas 10:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
How ancient? Shamanism is quite old, likely predating most other religions in some form or another, but generally qualifies as "LHP". Maybe the problem lies with the definition, and also with this article's slant towards cults and satanism. --Thoric 06:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I never heard of anyone calling Shamanism LHP. Luis Dantas 22:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

If LHP and RHP are both different paths leading to the same enlightenment whereby the RHP is through strict adherence to religious institutional norms and ethics, and where the LHP is through deviation from social norms, then Shamanism appears to qualify for LHP when compared to mainstream religions. The shamanic way involves self discovery, as opposed to following a set of strict and established rules. The shaman strives to obtain altered states of consciousness to communicate with spirits through ritual, singing, chanting, dancing, fasting, psychoactive plants, inducing pain, etc, as opposed to reading bibles. --Thoric 21:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
My point exactly, thanks; the LHP-RHP distinction depends on an artificial dualism that does not really apply to traditional or healthy religions, including Shamanism. Religions are NOT supposed to demand such a foolish choice "between" self-discovery and adherence to rules. The very idea that there _is_ such a thing as a "LHP religion" or "RHP religion" is just glorified prejudice, attempting to compensate real or perceived abuse by confronting it (usually by creating further abuse heading to a different direction). Trying to find ancient examples of such a modern (and misguided) concept is simple naive crypto-revisionism that only leads to further confusion. Luis Dantas 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

please read "At the left hand of God" by Robert.E Svaboda" to understand the left hand path.

That, alas, is not a readily available book. Would you like to comment on the author's ideas, either here or in the article proper? Luis Dantas 17:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doubtful paragraph

Removed from the article:

In recent practice, Gnostic Master Samael Aun Weor introduced the term "sex magic" in explicit reference to tantra in his 1950 publication of The Perfect Matrimony: Tantra, The Door to Initiation. Although he does not refer explicitly to the Right Hand Path (RHP) or Left Hand Path (LHP), it is clear from his over 50 books that "white sex magic" (without spilling the semen) and "black sex magic" (spilling semen) refer, respectively, to the RHP and LHP. (Samael Aun Weor advocates "scientific chastity" in tantra and abstinence from alcohol, but does not require strict vegetarianism. A limited form of animal sacrifice [i.e., consumption] is necessary to perform the Gnostic Work of white tantric sex magic; and cannibalism is not allowed!)

Problems:

  • This probably doesn't belong in the section on Hindu tantra, since it deals with a 20th-century Colombian neo-Gnostic writer. My guess is it belongs in the article Samael Aun Weor.
  • It isn't clear to me that this Weor personage is saying anything particularly original on the subject. He certainly did not invent the term "sex magic", given that Aleister Crowley and others were using it long prior to 1950. False claims such as this cast doubt on the rest of the paragraph.
  • If Weor "does not refer explicitly" to LHP / RHP in his work, who is it who thinks that he's talking about them?

--FOo 04:55, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with this being removed so long as you merge it elsewhere. Example (talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • This seems like a fan of this Samael Aun Weor person trying to fit him into a subject in which he does not belong. It should be moved to the Samael Aun Weor article. --Solar 02:58, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • The paragraph is not correct. Left Hand Path is spoken about in the Perfect Matrimony. Should be rewritten. Fubar, what you say is true but exoteric works about sexual magic written prior to 1950 do not exist. For example, if you understand Dion Fortune, Levi, C. W. Leadbeater, M., Alchemical works, etc., Sexual Magic is spoken of in many areas but they always covered in esoteric code. Additionally, Samael Aun Weor speaks at length on Aztec and Mayan occult mysteries which I have never seen even touched by anyone else. -- Paul Stone
  • It is true that as far as I have seen Crowley did not use the literal term 'Sex magick' but instead talked of OTO grades and Elixirs etc. However Austin Osman Spare did 'explicitly' refer to sex in a magickal context in his books and went into great detail about his concept of self-love. Crowley was also involved in Spare's book 'Now for reality' which is again very explicit in its discussion of sex and magick. The concept of sex and magick is not new and is referred to in witchcraft literature as early as the 1500's without the veiled techniques, which were used by the alchemists and occult schools. It seems that although Samael Aun Weor may have used the actual term sexual or sex magick early on, he is not considered by most modern writers on the subject to be an important contributor to the concept. It would seem that the terms history and usage today derives more from the 1970's and its use by Israel Regardie as well as lesser known writers including, Louis T. Culling and John Mumford. The concept was also popularized by practitioners of Chaos magic and Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth again in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. I would recommend that if there is strong opinion from more that one user for this person then he should be added with a statement something like this: ‘Sex Magick, a term which may have originated with Gnostic writer Samael Aun Weor in the 1950’s but was popularized in the 1970’s by a range of writers’. I think most feel that to give Samael Aun Weor credit for his contributions over someone like Spare, Crowley or Regardie would be inaccurate and even unfair. I would also recommend that we begin a Sex magick page. --Solar 16:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discordianism

Can discordianism really be defined as left-hand path religion? There is a goddess. Also note the things said about the pentagon in the picture description of the sacred chao in the discordianism article. Are they factual?

I was wondering about the same thing. I don't know an awful lot about Discordianism, but it's inclusion here struck me as rather odd. 80.203.115.12 22:57, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article seems to be POV

I'm not sure if it's just me, but this article seems to be a little POV in the sense that followers of the "left hand path" are portrayed as self-absorbed satanic occultist nutjobs, and followers of the "right hand path" as kind, loving, good people.

The left / right hand path division has far more to do with deviating from social norms than moral issues. Followers of the "right hand path" tend to view deviation from social norms as immoral, but that does not make it so. Likewise (as mentioned), followers of the "left hand path" tend to view followers of the "right hand path" as closed-minded sheep. --Thoric 23:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That is a very interesting questioning. How about suggesting some changes to make the article more NPOV? If you would rather not change the article outright, you may always propose those changes here in the Talk page. I personally think that it IS just you - AFAIK only the "nutjob" part does not really apply to LHP'ers. Neither do I really see how the difference between LHP and RHP could have more to do with social norms than moral issues. Luis Dantas 05:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
If Aleister Crowley is going to be the a prime example of a follower of the LHP, and use examples such as The Church of Satan for LHP religions, then how could this article not seem to be potraying followers of the LHP as a bunch of nutjobs? My suggestion would be to focus a little less on new age occult religions and cults, and to focus a little more on long established LHP religions. Most true LHP religions do not condone what they consider immoral activities, but their activities would certainly go against social norms. --Thoric 15:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK the LHP and RHP concepts _are_ a recent, western invention, so there _are_ no long established LHP religions. If there are, the article should make an effort to leave that clear. Thelemites and others often make claims related to ancient cults, but to the best of my knowledge that is just a marketing strategy with little or no substance.

And of course a LHP religion would not condone what _it_ considers immoral activities; _that_ would be the mark of a nutjob (more technically, a schizophrenic) belief. Luis Dantas 05:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hah, pretty much. Crowley gives the names of various people he calls members of the A.'.A.'. or members of the opposing Black Brotherhood, but none of those people verifiably used the name for themselves. Dan 18:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Islamic Taboo against touching religious texts with the left hand"

I'm a Muslim and i've never heard of a taboo against touching religious texts with the left hand.

It's something related to not touching it with the same hand you wipe your butt with as far as I recall.
I have heard of that, but in the context of India and/or Hinduism. It should be noted that quite a few Indians are muslims. Luis Dantas 05:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah -- most of Pakistan
Them too :) But even after the creation of Pakistan, Islam has quite a few practicioners in current India. Please see Islam in India. Luis Dantas 23:58, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

There are several hadith urging believers to "clean" themselves (so to speak) with the left hand and identifying the left hand as an "unclean" hand. The Qu'ran (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong) contains a directive to not eat or touch holy texts with "unclean hands" this I believe is the source of the "taboo" mentioned in the article. However, that is original research and honestly I could be wrong, is their someone with a better knowledge of Islamic taboos/laws that we could defer to? -Anymouse

[edit] Slight rewording

Atheists often also see this as a false dichotomy, and they (obviously) do not partake in any religion. I've reworded it slightly to reflect this.

I am a firm atheist that considers my religion to be Dark Sprituality. My strong belief that God does not exist does not mean I do not partake in any religion. I also consider the dichotomy to be valid as it is a similar if not the exact same dichotomy my religion makes as well. I realize that what I consider to be a relgion, many others would not, though there are plenty of recognized religions that do not require a belief in a transcendant God. -kooR deR 22:12 18 November, 2005 (UTC)
Not _that_ obvious. Quite a few atheists follow religions. Belief in God is not nearly the prerequisite for having a religion that most people think it to be. Luis Dantas 05:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Heh, yes, sizable precentages (30%?) of British Anglican priests are agnostic or atheist. SaTAN 23:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crowley's usage

I just corrected a minor mistake in this part of the article. Crowley did, in fact, use the term "Left-Hand Path" in isolation (namely, when writing on his copy of Mein Kampf), according to Lawrence Sutin. Dan 18:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a chapter called left hand path in "Magick without tears" Crowley goes into the subject quite extensively and it is nothing like the presesnt article. He also discusses LHP through the chapters on magickal schools. Just trying to help. Here is a link to a pdf for those that do not own a copy of the book. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt_contents.html Rev. Michael S. Margolin 07:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern View:

To my knowledge, the eastern view is that on the wheel of eighty four (administered by Kal Niranjan) there are those who assist in bonding souls to the material plane. They do this by slight of hand, Left Hand Path sociaties being a prime example. For this they are given material recompence (this being the lowest plane.) Each plane is dual in nature and has either dual gardians or dual aspects of a guardian (Kal and Shiva in the case of the material plane) An important aspect to note is that Brothers of the Left Hand Path cannot ascend above the material plane and are doomed to return to the wheel over and over until they eventualy become Brothers of the Right Hand Path (as has been documented) Also I would like to say to seekers, do not worry overly about what the eastern view on these things is because the Eastern View would be that "WHEN THE STUDENT IS READY THE MASTER APPEARS" an Eastern and Western occult truth.

Eritus sicut Deus, scientes bonum et malum (Ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil)

Deus Malum

[edit] Origins

The usage of the term "left-hand path" is centuries older than Blavatsky, so to credit her as the originator of the phrase is incorrect. The root of the term is in Hindu Tantra, and Blavatsky and Crowley certainly first took the term from there. --Snowgrouse 09:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What the left hand is used for

"Much of this has been contributed by the practice in many cultures of using the left hand to cleanse oneself, thus making the hand "unclean"." That bit makes it sound like using the left hand to cleanse oneself is some kind of ritual exorcism of evil spirits with the left hand or something. But I always thought the reason why desert tribes had this left-right hand thing was because there was no toilet paper in the desert? I think we can remove the quotes around unclean.

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