Talk:Lebanon/Archive 4

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Contents 1 British English in Etymology 2 Requesting two citations for the History section 3 Photos 4 POV in Current Situation 5 GA nomination on Hold 6 Matn vs. Metn

British English in Etymology

Why is the comment about the British English term "The Lebanon" in the Etymology section? Etymology is the story of the origin of words. The British English term for "The Lebanon" seems more like a piece of trivia. Thoughts? George Saliba 18:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed...--Xtcrider 16:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the Encarta Dictionary (2006): "An etymology often shows the different forms the word has taken in passing from one language to another, and sometimes shows related words in other languages." Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. According to this definition it would not be wrong to include the different forms of the word Lebanon. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 17:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Encarta definition seems more like an example of the use of etymology than a definition. According to The Consise Oxford Dictinoary, 8th Edition (1990), etymology is "the historically verifiable sources of the formation of a word and the development of its meaning". Using the Oxford definition would support George's point. For example, the etymology of the word "Canada" would not take into account, or acknowledge, how it is prounounced or used in arabic. Personally, I think it should be moved, but in the grand scheme of the article itself, it's a minor detail...--Xtcrider 18:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In general it just seems to be out of place to me. For instance, I don't speak Arabic (sadly), but I would suspect that Arabic-speaking nations may refer to Lebanon as al-Libnan, or something similar, but I don't think that that falls under Etymology either. Furthermore, is there evidence that this is true? I'm a native American English speaker, so I can't speak for British English, but I've never heard or seen this before. I have seen some of the other countries listed used with the definitive article before however, such as the Ukraine, the Netherlands, and the Congo, so I can't say for sure. I'll leave it alone for now, but if someone can do some independent research on both the appropriateness and the factual accuracy of this I think it would be helpful. If it's still in use, does it belong in the first paragraph instead of having a paragraph to itself in Etymology? Something like: Lebanon (sometimes referred to as the Lebanon), officially the Lebanese Republic... George Saliba 21:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In Arabic you don't add the "al" even though it's done for many other countries. I say remove the information if you want to. Adding it as a footnote or between parenthesis is a good idea. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 13:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting two citations for the History section

There are two piece of information I left in a particular paragraph in the History section that I'm not able to verify.

1. That Lebanon entered into the 1948 Arab-Israeli War only after taking logistical support of the Arab Liberation Army, versus entering the war earlier, then taking over logisitical support as a party already in said war.
2. That Lebanon accepted an armistice agreement with Israel "immediately" after (or as a result of) the defeat of the Arab Liberation Army in the Battle of Sasa.

I'm unable to readily verify these two points here or elsewhere (Google seems to just return other websites which index older versions of the article itself), so if anyone can find factual sources of these points it would be much appreciated. George Saliba 18:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Photos

It says on the to-do list that you need photos for Lebanon. I actually live there. What kind of photos do you need? I'l try to get some... If you want. 195.69.210.3 16:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)Some random guy

Any photos relating to Lebanon's culture (traditional clothes, wedding, etc...) would be helpful. Be creative. Please list the images you upload here so they can be included in the expanded section later on. Thanks. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 11:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

POV in Current Situation

I'm going to provide reasoning for each of my deletions here:

• Following Israel's failed aggression against Lebanon to cripple Hezballah in July 2006, the Lebanese population are now left with legitimate fears that Christian militias and other supportive forces opposed to Hezballah may now be forced to arm themselves and defend their country vis-à-vis a possible coup by Hizballah. This may be further escalated by regional and international conflicts and may lead the country to an elongated and bloody civil war.

The repeated use of "may" alone tells you that this paragraph doesn't belong in an encycolpedia. It is nothing but speculation. See What Wikipedia is not for more information on publishing opinions on current affairs.

• Ten days ago, Al-Qaida threatened to topple Premier Fouad Saniora's government. [1]

The same cited source says: "...it was impossible to verify the authenticity of the message... Information Minister Ghazi Aridi cast doubt on its veracity Monday." The Al-Qaeda threat's authenticity is largely debatable, and the article should reflect that debate. However, using an entire paragraph (in order to present all opinions on the issue) to document an event which is most probably is fake (and insignifcant) seems to be completely unjustified when a section like the Ancient History section (documenting 4000 years of history) spans just one paragraph.

• "[...]after pro-Syrian Hezballah threatened to overthrow the government and after anti-Syrian politician Samir Geagea predicted, a week ago, that the pro-Syrian camp would resort to assassinations in order to bring down the government. [2]"

The first point (that Hezbollah is trying to overthrow the government) has already been mentioned (the coup d'état). The sentence, and their positioning right after the assassination news, seems to be solely intended to highlight the theory that Syria is responsible for what happened. In Simple English, this translates to "Gemayel was killed just as Geagea predicted that Syria would starting killing people."

Everyone please try to add only events documents in the coldest way possible. Use simple informative sentences and try not to make speculative connections (especially those held by one party against another). Lebanon is going through a tough period right now and I believe it is always the media that start wars. We will have enough time later to argue a better presentation. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 07:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed--Xtcrider 00:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

GA nomination on Hold

Hi,

This article has a good start on its references and has pretty comprehensive coverage of the topic. I put many {{fact}} tags on it. Please note that I did not put them everywhere that they are needed; I just put them in places that would give you an idea where they belong:

• In general, any time you mention a specific number (2 million this; 15% that) it should be cited (except perhaps in the lead; and then it can be skipped there only if the fact is repeated and cited later).
• Any time you make a statement that "the government did this; a famous person said that" you need a cite.
• Any time you make a strong generalization (most people believe this; most people do that) you need a cite.

I only saw one POV problem: the word "ignominy". I may have missed others. But just describe the situation and let readers conclude for themselves whether or not it is ignominious.

I'm putting this article's GA nom on Hold for 7 days. Drop me a line if you have q's. --Ling.Nut 19:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. I'm seeing hard work by dedicated editors — which doesn't always always happen after a GA review — and that is a Good Thing. Kudos.

• This is a pretty long article, and getting all the citations in will take a nontrivial amount of time. Fortunately, GA isn't FA. You don't need to get everything done in order to pass GA. Just put in some good hard work (as I see you are doing) and try to get something approximating 80% of them. [The more the better, of course]. Look for long stretches that have no references. Look for words like "estimated" and "approximately". These are the types of thing that catch peoples' eyes and attract {{fact}} tags. Also be aware that when you go for FA, they will ask for even more citations — among other things :-). So it's a good idea to just get a head start and do as many as you can now.
• Some sections are looking a little list-like. Some reviewers frown upon that. I have always had mixed feelings; sometimes lists are kinda unavoidable. But bear this in mind.
• One section is marked "dubious." Mmm, that might fly for GA, but please try to get that resolved via consensus as soon as you can.
• Watch out for POV. POV problems are the third rail; they will fail you for both GA an FA. In general, adjectives are the culprits. try not to characterize the situation as good or bad; let the facts speak for themselves. Also try to provide "both sides of the story," of course, whether you agree with both sides or not.
• GOOD WORK!
• --Ling.Nut 16:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey there Ling.Nut, thanks so much for your comments.

• I'm going to do my best to get all statements referenced; other editors working here are also doing a great job. I don't think we'll be going for FA status soon, so we'll just stick to 80% for now :).
• We'll certainly be seeing what consensus we can reach regarding that dubious sentence, but to be frank I haven't read that section yet (despite my 3 months of working on this article), because... well... I'm afraid of what I'm going to see in there. Lebanese politics is just so sensitive, it will take significant work to reach NPOV with it. But we'll do our best.

Toodles for now, maybe I'll add more comments later. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 19:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• If you can't get consensus.. maybe a "both sides of the story" solution would work.. so long as both sides are taken from verifiable secondary sources. Later --Ling.Nut 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, I'm confused by the sentence marked dubious. I guess I'm not sure what the other side of the story would be. The sentence in question is: This arrangement is part of the "National Pact" (Arabic: الميثاق الوطني , al Mithaq al Watani), an unwritten agreement which was established in 1943 during meetings between Lebanon's first president (a Maronite) and its first prime minister (a Sunni), although it was not formalized in the Lebanese Constitution until 1990, following the Taif Agreement. I've found a reference that backs up this statement[3], so I'm replacing the dubious tag with this reference. If this reference doesn't sufficiently resolve the dubious nature of the statement, please re-apply the tag. Thanks. George Saliba 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, a search in the referenced article[4] for (Norton 1991, 461) should take you to the relevant paragraph. George Saliba 00:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again,

Just dropped by to see how things are going.

I do appreciate the excellent work being done here, as I said earlier.

I hope you'll make it very, very easy for me to PASS the GA nom by knocking out some more of the "citation needed" tags (by supplying references).

If that's done, then I will read it one more time for any potential POV phrases. If you go for FA one day, I suspect they will go over every sentence with a fine-toothed comb to look for POV problems. But GA is not FA, and if I see good faith effort to maintain NPOV, and if I don't see anything that just jumps out at me as a clear POV, I will pass the article.

If more of the references aren't supplied, however, you'll put me in a tough position of needing to make a difficult judgment call.

Thanks for your time & trouble!

--Ling.Nut 06:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Matn vs. Metn

Lcnj and myself disagree about the proper spelling of the Matn/Metn district in Lebanon, and I was hoping we can hold a discussion here to try to reach a consesus on the issue. Lcnj favors the spelling Matn, while I favor the spelling Metn. I'd like to start by listing the reasons I prefer Metn:

• The more common English language spelling appears to be Metn. A Google search for Metn, Lebanon returns 65,000 results while a search for Matn, Lebanon returns 15,000 results. (Google in fact suggests Metn, Lebanon to correct the spelling when using Matn, Lebanon)
• The spelling 'Metn' appears to be used by international organizations, such as the UN[5], World Bank [6], and the UNDP[7].
• The spelling 'Metn' appears to be used inside Lebanon on English-language sites, such as the President's site[8], Byblos Bank[9], the Naharnet site[10], and Lebanon.com[11]

I don't make any claims to exclusivity of use of the term Metn, just more common usage than Matn. I'm hoping Lcnj can add his reasons for preferring Matn here as well. Does anyone know if maybe Matn is the more common French spelling? Does anyone have any input on which is the more common spelling locally? Thanks. George Saliba 05:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you George. Our healthy dispute should help us get it right. My strongest justification is that this is an Article about Lebanon and, in Lebanon, Al Matn (Arabic قضاء المتن) has a fat'hah over the M (م) not a "kasrah" to justify the pronunciation Metn. While many non-Arabic authorities (including my beloved friends at Google) erroneously use Metn and it is used a lot, it does not make it linguistically correct to a Lebanese or any native Arabic speaker or an Arabic Linguist. Ergo, the Lebanese in Lebanon, and many Lebanese around the world, do not typically use Metn in English, they use Matn (North Matn, Higher Matn, etc... ). AUB, a highly respected University in Lebanon, uses Matn not Metn [12]. The same applies to Matn University in Jdaideh (the capital of Al Matn) [13]. Furthermore, Al Jazeera English - Archive uses the correct spelling Matn[14] Lcnj 05:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to yield to other people who look at this article with regards to which is more accurate to the original Arabic as I, sadly, cannot speak it. I would like to point out however that the same AUB site sometimes uses the spelling Metn[15]. Do you have any thoughts on if Matn (or Metn) may be left over from French rather than English? I'm not sure what the district would be called in French personally. Hopefully we can get some feedback from others on this issue over the next few days. Cheers. George Saliba 05:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that explains things to me. Your name is as Lebanese from Lebanon as they come and I was a little surprised that you would even dispute the spelling Matn as any native Arabic speaker can easily recognize that Matn has a Fat'hah over the M not kasrah to justify Metn. To answer your question, in this case, French does play any role as the accurate pronunciation comes from the Arabic "Al Matn". Ergo, in French it is also spelled Matn. For levity, if you really.. really want to hear the sound Metn (more like Mitn) spoken in Lebanon you have to go the small villages and listen to friendly and charmimg peasants and shepherds with litlle education who speak with a very interesting dialect. Lcnj 06:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I'm ethinically Lebanese, not natively Lebanese. I'm not sure that I agree that the fat'hah translates to an English 'a' however. I did a little reading and it sounds like the fat'hah can be either a short a or short e in English, like a in hat or e in net. If the e was pronounced like an e in net, then Metn still makes sense to me (and would be less likely to be mis-pronounced than Matn, which native English speakers would likely pronouce as a long a, like Maatn). Also, I think a kasrah would end up Mitn if translated to English, not Metn. I'd be quite surprised if so many businesses, governments and interantional organizations would spell it incorrectly so consistently. Hopefully we can get some input from others. Cheers. George Saliba 06:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

George, I applaud and encourage your efforts to learn Arabic. The Fat'ha (or fat'hah) فَتحَة is ALWAYS pronounced ONE way in Arabic with an "a" (´) sound never an "e" sound as in "Al-Matn" المَتن or "Watan" وَطَني (My Country). I am as surprised as you are as why so many spell "Metn" the incorrect way and would love to know the origin of this erroneous spelling. On thing comes to mind is the "erroneous" pronunciation by so many non-French speakers of "femme fatale". They pronounce it "'fem" while the ACCURATE pronunciation in French is "'fam". Lcnj 18:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. For whatever my two cents are worth...I would go with a)what the Lebanese government uses, and/or b)what is most commonly used (in that order). While I am not a linguist by profession, there always seem to be anomalies when translating from english to arabic...which is why I think we should defer to official government sources when there is no authoritative answer (like the "Oxford Dictionary of Arabic Words in English")! All that to say that I agree with George. --Xtcrider 22:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems reasonable to me. It's a bit hard to find official Lebanese websites, but here's the best I could do: The Lebanese Government Portal for Information & Forms. A search for Metn returns a dozen results including Municipalities > Metn District, Public Schools > Metn, Urban Planning Bureau in Metn, General Security Bureau in Metn, and others. A search for Matn doesn't return any results. George Saliba 22:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Xtcrider, are you a native speaker of Arabic? Lcnj 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to offer the following reasoning and proposition, based on my understanding of the Arabic Manual of Style and our discussions so far:

• The primary transliteration is one used by "at least 75% of all references in English". While not absolute, I believe we can say that at least 75% of English references use "Metn" over "Matn" (66,100 results for the Google search 'Metn, Lebanon' vs. 14,900 for the Google search 'Matn, Lebanon', about 80% in favor of "Metn"). For instance, even though native speakers do not refer to Egypt by the exact same name in Arabic, the word "Egypt" is used in Wikipedia because it is more commonly used in English.
• The standard transliteration is used when there is no primary transliteration. The standard transliteration of the Arabic spelling, including the fat'hah, is indeed "Matn". However, even though this is the more accurate transliteration of the original word, it isn't used because a primary transliteration exists (in this case, "Metn"). Back to the Egypt example above, the standard transliteration of Egypt appears to be Misr, but this isn't use as Egypt more commonly used in English and represents a primary transliteration.
• The strict transliteration is reversible between the original Arabic. The strict transliteration is also "Matn", but also isn't the preferred name when a primary transliteration exists.

Given these, I propose we do the following:

1. Use the term "Metn" when referring to the district.
2. Add a redirect to point Matn District to Metn District.
3. Add the transliteration "Matn" to the Metn article.
4. Add something such as "Metn, also referred to as Matn,..." at the beginning of the article as an alternative English spelling.

In short, I believe you are correct that "Matn" is a more accurate English spelling of the district name Lcnj, but I believe, as per Wikipedia guidelines, we should use "Metn", in the same way Egypt is used over Misr. Thoughts? George Saliba 01:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

George, my thoughts, and please with all due respect to your much appreciated efforts, is that neither you nor Google are authorities or reliable sources on the accurate spelling of Matn. I am an authotity being an informed native speaker (I wish other native Arabic speakers come and confirm that the fat'ha is always pronounced with a short "a" as in hat). However, you seem to agree to that when you say that Matn is more accurate when it is spelled in English. I would go as to say, it is the ONLY accurate spelling as I know for sure and so do native Arabic speakers... However, this is such a small issue, and you seem to feel more strongly about this than me... So, if within the period allowed by Wikipedia, no native Arabic speakers come to the rescue of "Matn", I think I will withdraw my dispute noting all too well that Metn is the wrong spelling and we can remain friends... cheerio mate. Lcnj 02:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm hoping we can get some other native Arabic speakers here to help resolve the matter. It's not so much that I feel strongly one way or the other on Matn and Metn, it's just if the consensus is that Matn is preferred then we should update all the articles pointing to Metn currently, and if not, vice-versa. I'm more concerned with the consistency than the result, so people don't get confused why sometimes it's Metn, sometimes it's Matn, sometimes Maten, al-Matn, al-Metn, etc., and it's good if we can get it right also since we're looking at it anyways. George Saliba 02:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello there fellows, sorry for the long absence, but I live in Lebanon and you know the hell we're going through. Anyways, while I find that George's reasoning is at first glance (because I've only skimmed through the posts) more rational, I believe Lcnj is right. The only way Lebanese people, me included, (with the possible exception of some "peasant accents") pronounce the district's name is "Matn", with a very clear a, that is in no way even similar to the French sounds e, é or è. The same pronunciation is also used in standard Arabic, not only in the local Lebanese dialect. Remember that rules are blind. Oh, and I'm a native speaker of Arabic by the way. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 18:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lestat, thanks for replying. After what research I'm capable of, and talking with Lcnj, I totally agree that 'Matn' is the more accurate translation. The only real question I have is if the use of Metn constitutes a clear 75% majority of usage in English or not, which I'm not completely sure about. Similar to how the English article is spelled Lebanon and not the more accurate Libnan in English, only because the spelling Lebanon is used more often (more than 75% of the time). If Metn fails to meet this criteria, I think we should go ahead and adopt Matn. Thoughts? George Saliba 18:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lestat. I kinda missed you round here... Hope you are at least safe in Lebanon. Please would you update the current situation?... :) Also, thanks for coming to the rescuse of "Matn" as any native Lebanese/Arabic speaker would. I think George was rational for the most part and he made sense, but for a native Lebanese or an Arab, Matn is simply Matn... Although we seem to almost reach a consensus on Matn, I REALLY REALLY would like to know why on earth would anyone in Lebanon and abroad use the incorrect spelling Metn???? I can understand the situation with Masr since in classical arabic it is pronounced Masr while in the Egyptian dialect it is pronunced Misr... but sur not Matn... In any case, thanks to all who participated in thiis friendly dispute... Lcnj 19:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again and thanks for your warm words :)... I just wanted to point out something to you guys while I mull the issue over: you're quoting improper examples. Lebanon is the word for "Libnèn" in English. It is not a transliteration. "Libnèn" itself is the transliteration. Similarily, Egypt is not a transliteration but the actual English name (in this case, Misr/Masr are considered transilerations). This is acutally mentioned in the Arabic article section of the Arabic MOS, which says that Arabic articles are defined as ones carrying transliterated names rather than translated ones. While this doesn't undermine your reasoning, I just thought it was worth mentioning.

And finally, my apologies to Lcnj; I won't be able to update the Current Situation section. Updating it right now would be too hasty. Reporting news just fresh out is the job of Wikinews. I think waiting for a few days to see how things turn out would be put everything into better perspective. Plus, I'm personally involved in the issue so I already know it will be very difficult for me to escape to POV. Maybe after we pass GA I'll let myself go lol (by the way, please do your best to provide references). If you want some news, I'll be happy to provide it on your talk page. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 20:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the transliteration vs. translation makes sense, so you're absolutely right that those aren't good examples. I think Metn is a transliteration, and not a translation, so the question becomes whether Metn constitutes a primary transliteration based on the extent of its usage in English or not. And even if so, do we choose to break the rules in this case and favor Matn? I believe Matn may be a good case for us to use common sense, despite the more common spelling in English. If such is the concensus, I'll beginning updating all the links to Metn to point to Matn (probably tomorrow).

Hope everything works itself out in Lebanon and everyone stays safe! George Saliba 21:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome, Lestat... and thanks for the offer. I can get news without overloading Wikipedia. I sensed you are personally involved and you and I may disagree, but still my hope is that the Lebanese would quickly wake up and relaize that what unites them as Lebanese can easily help them do what is RIGHT by ALL the Lebanese, put aside ALL their selfisheness, corruption, petty political differences and senseless military conflicts, and enjoy living harmoniously in a beautiful small country called... "Lebnèn"... Lcnj 21:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've begun the transition from the spelling Metn to Matn, as I believe we've reached the concensus to use the more accurate transliteration using common sense. Please help by redirecting articles you see using variations of Metn, el/al-Matn/Metn, Maten, etc. to Matn District (where appropriate, of course). Be aware there is already an article at Matn, so I've added a disambiguation note at the top of that page, but other articles may be erroneously pointing to that article instead of Matn District currently. I've also cleaned up the new article a little to reflect the various spellings and transliterations. Thanks for your help! George Saliba 03:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure George... I am not sure what all that meant but I will be glad to help out if you put it layman's terms... Lcnj 04:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Lcnj: just finished reading the above thread (since my last comment) and to answer your question, I am not a native speaker of arabic. After going over it again, I think you are probably right, but I'm fine either way, for whatever that's worth...cheers. --Xtcrider 05:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Lcnj, was just saying to keep an eye out for various spellings still existing, and try to update them if you see them. I think idealy we should have links to the article using Matn, and then inside the Matn district article list alternative names, so people don't get confused and think that Matn, Metn, Maten, etc. are different places (like town A is in Matn, while town B is in Metn). Hope that makes sense. Cheers. George Saliba 05:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see we have reached consensus. Using common sense makes perfect sense here. I guess some UN official got the spelling wrong one day, posted it on their website, and it gradually became accepted—it's the UN after all. As to updating the spelling throughout Wikipedia, this seems like a job for a bot. Check if there is one for it. One thing that can make life easier for you to make sure that other article linking to Matn District is using the special page "What links here" (first in toolbox to the left). And to Lcnj, I say that I couldn't have said it any better :). Everyday I marvel at our ability to turn this beautiful small country to such a hell of politics. I hope we wake up as you say... Peace on Earth. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 07:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh absolutely... thank you for the clarification, George... will sure do... your wish is our command, mate. Lcnj 17:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Lestat... you da man!... The UN? really? They never seem to stop getting it wrong, do they!... wow... anyway, I add my voice to yours and say Peace on Earth... so that ALL the Lebanese live in dignity, peace and true love for that small country that depends on each one of them doing only what is right!... Lcnj 18:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)