Talk:Lebanon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lebanon article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

Lebanon has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

	Lebanon Portal This article is part of WikiProject Lebanon, an attempt to create a comprehensive, neutral, and accurate representation of Lebanon on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

	To-do list for Lebanon:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Add a list of syndicates and orders for engineers, doctors, drivers,... that exist in Lebanon. Most of them have websites. Provide citations for the Politics section and the Elections subsection.

Lebanon is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Geography article has been rated GA-Class on the assessment scale.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Western Asia, a WikiProject related to the countries of Western Asia.

Archives Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6: POV issues Archive 7: "Open war" debate and RfC

Contents 1 Religion in Lebanon 2 Another Population Estimate 3 Please try to keep this article NPOV 4 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest 5 Number of schools 6 Copyviolation in Culture 7 Comments 8 Conflict between Syria article and Lebanon article 9 Hello people! 10 Confessionalism 11 etymology 12 Requested edits 13 Motto 14 Hezbollah and "occupied Palestine" 15 "Hezbollah-led"? 16 FA status 17 January 26, 2007 18 green Lebanon cedar, or Lebanon cedar in green? 19 Recent events section 19.1 New gov and anti-gov protests 20 Thoughts on improvements to the introduction 21 Some moving around 22 Etymology - help to remove junk text 23 Lebanon Portal : Anybody seen the "hegemony"? 24 Dot comma 25 Improvements to the article 25.1 Lead 25.2 Etymology 25.3 Geography and climate 25.4 Administrative divisions 25.5 Demographics 25.6 Economy 25.7 Education 25.8 Culture 25.9 Politics 25.10 History 25.11 Recent Events 25.12 See also 26 Request 27 New map

[edit] Religion in Lebanon

This article fails to address the religious demographics of--and state of inter-religious relations in--Lebanon. My own great-grandmother and great-grandfather were Lebanese Protestant Christians. Most people simply assume that, because Lebanon is an Arab nation, its population is vastly Muslim. If anyone out there has the time and the knowledge of specifics to add a section on the religious beliefs of the Lebanese people, please do so. Such an addition would boost the informative potential of the article greatly. --The Berzerk Dragon 14:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The article already details the sectarian distribution of the Lebanese population in the Demographics section. The text clearly indicates that population is not "vastly Muslim". However, the reported numbers should be taken with several pinches of salt, as no official census has been conducted for over 70 years. —LestatdeLioncourt 14:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There is more to it than a simple numerical breakdown. The religious dynamics of the nation come with sociological and cultural implications that extend beyond simple percentages. --The Berzerk Dragon 14:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As well as beyond the scope of this article. Your objection was "Most people simply assume that, because Lebanon is an Arab nation, its population is vastly Muslim." Anyone reading the article will certainly be able to tell that's not true. We have many articles concerning the complexities of Lebanese culture. A simple wikisearch should suffice. —LestatdeLioncourt 10:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That was more of an example of why some more info might be good than anything else. It was by no means the only shortcoming I perceived. I just thought the article might benefit if someone wanted to address the matter in some greater detail within the article. Whether the matter is addressed in other articles is beyond the scope of my interest. It seemed sensible that Lebanese religion should be addressed in some good detail in the "Lebanon" article. You seem hell-bent on being right here, though, so we'll say you win. Bravo. Now you can sleep at night, right? --The Berzerk Dragon 16:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You kidding??? I won!!!! Yay!!! —LestatdeLioncourt 14:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi BD. I'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting, but you sound upset about something at any rate. Can you offer an example of a piece of text you would like to see added, so that we can evaluate, critique, and discuss what exactly you're suggesting? After reading through this discussion, I hoenstly have no idea what you're looking to have added to the article, beyond the religious demographics figures already there. — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It's really not worth the trouble. If someone actually "gets" what I'm talking about, that's great. Otherwise, I'm not putting anymore effort into discussing this article. --The Berzerk Dragon 07:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another Population Estimate

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/50261.pdf
Table 1: Political Dynamics
Lebanon’s Population. The following estimates of Lebanon’s population were taken from Lebanon’s Political Mosaic, published by the Directorate of Intelligence of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, NESA 92-10020, LDA 92-13537, August 1992. There has been no census in Lebanon since 1932. Not all Lebanese agree with the CIA figures cited, and some maintain that the Christian communities are understated.
Table 1. Population Estimates, 1991
Number Percent
Shia Muslim 1,140,000 38%
Sunni Muslim 690,000 23%
Maronite Christian 600,000 20%
Other Christian 360,000 12%
Druze 210,000 7%
Total 3,000,000 100%

I'd format and add to the article later. TopRank 14:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Your source quotes 1991 statistics. The source cited in the article is much more recent (2006). LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 15:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Re recent edits in Demographics. A breakdown between Shia, Sunni and Druze cites the CIA Factbook as a source but, as far as I can see, there is no such breakdown in the Factbook. This is the entry as of today, 1 February 1007:

" Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%

note: 17 religious sects recognized " Kahuzi 12:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please try to keep this article NPOV

As I've noticed there is somebody who would like to push POV . Please use pro and anti government attributes instead of pro and anti Israel, US, Syria and other countries.--Sa.vakilian 07:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sa.vakilian, I assume the "pushing POV" comment was aimed at me, which is disappointing as I try to maintain as much NPOV as possible. I believe the pro-/anti- Western, Syrian, Iranian, US are all extremely important, as this is viewed by many as the crux of the situation. Many references paint the protests as a conflict of ideologies, and I believe for us to not mention this would do the article a disservice. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There is written "the anti-government rally and sit-in showed no signs of waning, as the Western-backed government vowed to hold out against the siege led by pro-Syrian, Iranian-backed Hezbollah" .

But according to your reference " As if domestic tensions aren't enough, international rivalries are pushing the quarrel beyond Lebanon's borders. The U.S., which considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization, is supporting Siniora and accuses Syria and Iran of fomenting instability. On Dec. 2, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, called the Hezbollah demonstrations part of an ``Iran-Syria-inspired coup effort.Hezbollah, which last summer sparked a 33-day war with Israel when it abducted a pair of Israeli soldiers, opposes Siniora's friendship with the U.S. and wants new elections. "^[1]

I think this sentences are more NPOV than what is written in the article. Of course I prefer this article as a more NPOV one:Hezbollah and the Political Ecology of Postwar Lebanon--Sa.vakilian 07:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we disagree. I believe we should point out both sides, with appropriate references. Give the reader all the information available, and let them make the decision. Removing factually accurate information, however, is tantamount to censorship, which I don't view as NPOV. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Using adjectives like pro-Syrian for one group is a form of POV pushing unless we add pro-US for other group. Thus I prefer to add detailed information instead of labeling any group.--Sa.vakilian 07:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Western-backed was intended to be short for US-backed, France-backed, German-backed, British-backed. If you prefer, by all means change this to pro-Western, Wester-supported, pro-US, etc. As long as factually accurate, I have no qualms with this. It is not meant as a positive or negative label, only as a fact about a group to help the reader better understand the situation described. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added anti-Syrian, as this seems the most accurate. On one side is a group who opposes Syria and is backed by the West, and on the other is a group who supports Syria and is backed by Iran. How do you feel about this change? — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me throw my two cents in this dispute. I believe vakilian has misunderstood George's efforts to maintain NPOV yet show a balanced POV of both camps. Unless you are a "politically not involved" Lebanese or a person of lebanese descent with no political invovement yet very well infomed about that little country, you will not understand the importance of showing both sides of the equation. Hope this helps... Lcnj 08:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with a "balance of POV's" as long as I see a "balance"... but I am seeing that George is doing all he can to bring a "balance of conflicting POV's" while vakilian is pushing ONE POV. vakilian, can you give me a civil response to my question re: NPOV ? Thanks. Lcnj 00:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean "He[Nasrallah] urged supporters not to give up their demand for a unity government, and he demanded that the death of Ahmad Mahmoud should not be served as an excuse for any violent clashes. He emphasized that the protest was "peaceful, civil and civilised," and pledged that the death of a Shia opposition supporter after violence on Sunday would not lead the protesters to violence. "Hezbollah calls for more protests", AlJazeera International"? Is this POV? If so, we can quote from both sides ,Nasrallah and siniora.--Sa.vakilian 10:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure who you're talking to, or what you're talking about, but this doesn't seem very POV to me. It should be cleaned up grammatically, and summarized (as it's very repetetive, basically saying the same thing twice), but other than that seems fine. — George Saliba ^[talk] 10:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure either. I am sure George and Lestat are keeping a close eye, just like I am. All I ask of vakilian and any other Editor to make sure that he adds BOTH POV's not just his own side. This makes it easier on all of us to maintain NPOV. Thanks Lcnj 15:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest

There is another article for 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest. I propose leaving an abstract and merging details to that article.--Sa.vakilian 07:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. We have to be careful though, as not everything in the Current Situation section is related to the protests, but in general it should be moved to the main article. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both of you since the protest will be having a major impact on "current" events. The day to day details should be in the main article 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest with critical abstracts under Current Situation. All this is is surreal, to say the least!... Lcnj 08:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I did it.--Sa.vakilian 08:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Merci, agha... but, I think you removed more than the protest. Unless you or George object, I will bring back the progression of daily events with minimal info on protest. Lcnj 08:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think super fast George is already organizing and bringing back some current info to the main article. I will let him do his magic and check on it afterwards. Lcnj 08:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of schools

I have looked far and wide and I still can't find any source for the number of high schools in Lebanon. Can anyone help? LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 10:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This site[1] quotes a subscriber-only article on the Daily Star site: "UNICEF's back-to-school program helps Lebanon's 1,153 primary and elementary schools, 270 public high schools and 375 private schools that receive government subsidies. The majority of Lebanon's approximately 1,400 private schools, according to data from the Ministry of Education, have already started their semesters." I'm not sure if that covers all of them, or just the ones that received aid from UNICEF, though it sounds like the former. — George Saliba ^[talk] 21:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it does sound like the source is talking about schools in general, not just ones helped by UNICEF. In either case, thanks. LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 21:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.165.18.76 (talk) 16:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Copyviolation in Culture

The original text for this paragraph seems to have been copied from this page. I'm moving the text here so we can decide what to do with it. I have already changed some of the phrasing, but some of it is still copied word by word.

“

Lebanon has been a major crossroads of civilizations for millennia, and as a result possesses a rich and vibrant culture. Lebanon's wide array of ethnic and religious groups contributes to the country's rich cuisine, musical and literary traditions, and festivals. In general, the Lebanese society is modern, educated, and perhaps comparable to European societies of the Mediterranean. This is particularly true for the urban population and residents of Beirut and Mount Lebanon. The country serves not only as a unique amalgamation of Christians and Muslims, but also as an Arab gateway to Europe and vice versa.

”

The text was added by IP 82.110.178.63. I have posted the appropriate warning template on the IP's talk page, though I'm afraid we might be a little too late :). LestatdeLioncourt ^talk 22:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the text and reworked it into my own words adding content that I felt would fit well. I tried to be as unbiased as possible and think what I came out with fits pretty well what Lebanese culture is.

“

The area including modern Lebanon has been for thousands of years a melting pot of various civilizations and cultures. Originally home to the Phoenicians/Canaanites, and then subsequently conquered and occupied by the Assyrians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs, the Ottoman Turks and most recently the French, Lebanese culture has over the millennia evolved by borrowing from all of these groups. Lebanon's diverse population comprising of different ethnic and religious groups has further contributed to the countries lively festivals, highly successful musical styles and literature as well as there rich cuisine. When compared to the rest of the Middle East, Lebanese society as a whole is well educated, and as of 2003 87.4% of the population was literate. Lebanese society is very modern and similar to certain cultures of Mediterranean Europe. Not only is Lebanon a distinctive fusion of Christian and Muslim traditions unequivocal in the rest of the region, it also serves as the European gateway to the Middle East as well as the Arab gateway to the Western World.

”

David Jacques 3:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm blown away. Bravo! —LestatdeLioncourt 13:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Hello again,

The article is looking really topnotch! I have a few thoughts:

• Lebanon's confessional system of government is notable enough to warrant a sentence in the lead section.
• In the lead, this phrase:"...there were widespread efforts to revive the economy..." is vague & unclear. You don't want to go into great detail in the lead, but "widespread efforts" could mean "widespread help from the international community" or "efforts by Lebanon's government to revive key sectors of the economy" or.... I dunno what it means.
• I really hate to tell you this, after all the hard work you've put in, but unfortunately (and in my opinion) you're still gonna need many more citations. That is especially true in the "politics" and "recent events" (including "assassinations") sections. It is unfortunate that the situation in Lebanon is so controversial, but controversial situations are probably going to be held to a higher standard of Wikipedia:Verifiability.

But I do want to say that the work done here has been outstanding. The editors involved here are, in my opinion, a credit to Wikipedia.

Good work! --Ling.Nut 16:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict between Syria article and Lebanon article

The Syria article says:

“

The modern state of Syria attained independence from the French mandate of Syria in 1936.

”

The Lebanon article says: Lebanon and Syria both gained independence in 1943

There is a direct contradiction between independence in 1936 and 1943. Could it be that Lebanonand Syria gained independenc from each other, not from the French mandate, in 1943?

Please fix. 76.168.48.249 01:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As stated in the CIA World Factbook, Lebanon gained independence from France in 1943 however Syaria continued to be administered from France until 1946, 3 years later.

So both articles are incorrect. I am going to fix this now.

David Jacques 5:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Lebanon and Syria both gained independence in 1943, while France was occupied by Germany.[56] General Henri Dentz, the Vichy High Commissioner for Syria and Lebanon, played a major role in the independence of both nations. The Vichy authorities in 1941 allowed Germany to move aircraft and supplies through Syria to Iraq where they were used against British forces. The United Kingdom, fearing that Nazi Germany would gain full control of Lebanon and Syria by pressure on the weak Vichy government, sent its army into Syria and Lebanon.

The above text contradicts both the Syria article which states that Syria gained independence in 1936, and the CIA World Fact Book which states that Syria gained Independence 3 years after Lebanon in 1946.

I am changing it to the following until someone better decides how to more accurately include the parts on Syria:

Lebanon gained independence in 1943, while France was occupied by Germany.[56] General Henri Dentz, the Vichy High Commissioner for Syria and Lebanon, played a major role in the independence of the nation. The Vichy authorities in 1941 allowed Germany to move aircraft and supplies through Syria to Iraq where they were used against British forces. The United Kingdom, fearing that Nazi Germany would gain full control of Lebanon and Syria by pressure on the weak Vichy government, sent its army into Syria and Lebanon.

David Jacques 5:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to correct myself above, they Syira article is actually correct. It does not say Syria gained independence in 1936 but says they began negotiations for independence in 1936. The article correctly states that they won their independence in '46.

David Jacques 5:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello people!

Wow...this article is simply amazing! I am surprised at how much is now know about my country! Anyways, since this would be the first time I post anything - and I am not even sure if this is where this post should go - I would like to know if it would be interesting to add something about the different Lebanese Presidents since the day the Ottomans and the French left the country... I could write that out, I would only like to know if it's feasible... thx!

==Absolut Life 09:08, 03 January 2006 (GMT +3:00)

Welcome to Wikipedia! This is indeed the place you're supposed to post in to discuss the article. Anything you can contribute will be very helpful; this is what Wikipedia thrives on. You can make your edits directly to the article or jot down a draft right here, improve it, and then post it in the main article. I would adivse you to get a good idea of WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY, and WP:NOR before making any major edits, because they are very important policies. Believe me, they will make life a lot easier for you. —LestatdeLioncourt 20:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the encouragement! But before I actually discuss about the Presidents, I feel there is more that we can do to describe the Lebanese history, especially when it comes to Ancient Egyptians, Napoleon and the Ottoman Turks having been in Lebanon. Below is a short article about the Ottoman Turks. It would be a good idea to (obviously expand on it first!) put it in "9.1 Ancient History". The reason for the article is that leaders (including Presidents) in Lebanon, mostly got their powers when the occupational forces in Lebanon granted them the power (i.e. it was the French who put the 1st President in office after their independence). Anyways, this is (part of) the article:

"In 1861, Turkish Ottomans took control of Lebanon after the 5 surperpowers of the time (France, Great Britain, Russia, Austria and the Ottoman Empire) decided on a solution for the conflict in the Lebanese mountains. Mount Lebanon became a Mutasarifiya (an autonomous Ottoman province) administered by a Mutasarif, a non-Lebanese Catholic selected by the Empire and approved by the other European powers. By 1914, eight Mutasarifs had succeeded each other,and the Mutasarifiya was thriving. When World War I began, the Ottoman Empire joined the Axis (Germany, Austria and Hungary) against the Allies (France, Great Britain and Russia) and subsequently abolished the Mutasarifiya and delegated a Muslim Ottoman governor instead. In 1915, the situtation in Lebanon deteriorated calamatically as the Allies imposed a maritime embargo and crickets ravaged cultivated lands, leaving the Lebanese to die of hunger, while typhus and cholera epidemics spread among the region's populace. Lebanese Christians and Muslims, secretly aided by the Allies, tried to get rid of the Ottomans, who had been imposing unpaid labor and conscription. In May 1916, the Sykes-Picot agreement was reached..." (to be discussed first then expanded) Absolut Life 15:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

We certainly need to expand the history section some more. But please be aware that sections within this article are meant to provide an overview only; detail goes into the article concerning the the specific topic. So, as you develop your ideas, consider adding them to the proper articles while adding summaries (highlighting major points) to this article. I've made some edits to your paragraph (hopefully, improvements). Here are some comments:

• In transliterating Mutssarrifiya (Arabic: متصرفية), I don't believe you need to have so many double letters. The concept of stressing a letter by writing it down twice isn't applicable to English. So I suggest using the simpler Mutasarifya transliteration (there's an a vowel after the t, if you follow the standard Arabic pronunciation, which you seem to do because you're spelling the terminal vowel as a).
• You say that the region was thriving. I changed that to the Mutasarifiya was thriving, for clarity. But either way, the statement is incorrect. The Mutasarifiya seriously lacked agricultural land and trading ports and wasn't at all well-off economically. I suggest removing the underlined sentence. —LestatdeLioncourt 20:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confessionalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessionalism is a disambiguation page -- I believe the correct link ought to be to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessionalism_(politics). HasanDiwan 21:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. — George Saliba ^[talk] 21:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] etymology

i just want to add the fact that the name Lebanon is recorded in Ancient Egyptian as "RMNN", where the letters "r" and "l" were interchangeable in Egyptian.

won't somebody unlock this page at least for that?

Flibjib8 03:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The article won't be protected for long, so you might want to wait a little and make the edit yourself. Please make sure you can provide references for the information you add. —LestatdeLioncourt 08:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested edits

The last three items on the to-do list. —LestatdeLioncourt 13:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Robdurbar 17:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this Robdurbar. A few comments:

• The farms should be spelled Shebaa Farms, and should wikilink to the main article.
• The "occupied Palestine" lacks a close quote, and should use double quotes instead of single quotes.
• I believe we should get rid of the quotation marks around "act of war", as we're now stating it as a government policy rather than a quotation by the Prime Minister of that government.

Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 19:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we'll deal with these minor issues once the article is unprotected. The important thing right now is modifying the content per Jaakobou's request, to get the discussion moving. You can still request the changes if you want to. And of course thanks Robdurbar for making the edits. —LestatdeLioncourt 19:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

A very small nit to pick indeed, but I believe the motto "Kūllūnā li-l-waṭan, li-l-'ula wa-l-'alam" should more acurately be translated as "We are all for the nation, the glory and the flag" rather than "We are all for our Nation, for our Glory and Flag!". 88.113.179.51 22:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry everyone I have been very busy. Thank God for George and Lestat. My 2 cents on this issue here. You are right on one point. There is no "our". Watan وَطَن is translated country. Ummah أُمَّة is nation. عُلى is not glory but glory is good enough until someone comes up with the EXACT translation. Lcnj 07:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back, Lcnj! Would "heights" be a better translation? —LestatdeLioncourt 12:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Original poster here. Right, "watan" is more accurately translated as country. "'ula" does indeed have connotations pertaining to height, but I believe just translating it as such loses some of its meaning. 88.113.179.51 21:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What about "grandeur", or "greatness", or "magnificence"? I don't speak Arabic, but these all have some underlying size meaning. — George Saliba ^[talk] 00:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Lestat... We're getting there, folks... but no cigars!.... loftiness comes to mind... also highness (yes, it is an English word)... greatness has the exact spirit but not the correct translation. Heights seem to be a good translation but does not reflect the exact spirit. Lcnj 10:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd warn against using the term "highness", as it is far more often used to refer to kings and queens than height, and would almost definately make the motto sound like a reference to a monarch that Lebanon does not have. :) — George Saliba ^[talk] 10:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• I like "grandeur" and "greatness" (although the word is plural).
• I realize "heights" is just a literal translation. It doesn't have the required connotation.
• I agree with George that "highness" is too royal. —LestatdeLioncourt 15:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• ditto, Lestat. We should be able to get it right soon. Lcnj 04:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

This is the collection of words I got from a Thesaurus. It's a bit lengthy and drifts away from the meaning we need, but it'll provide us with many choices.

Distinction, note, notability, name, mark, reputation, figure, réclame, éclat, celebrity, vogue, fame, famousness, popularity, renown, memory, immortality, glory, honour, credit, prestige, kudos, account, regard, respect, reputableness, respectability, repectableness, good name, illustriousness, goloriousnoess, dignity, stateliness, solemnity, grandeur, splendour, nobility, nobleness, lordliness, majesty, sublimity, greatness, highness, eminence, supereminence, pre-eminence, primacy, importance, elevation, ascent, exaltation, superexaltation, aggrandisement. —LestatdeLioncourt 13:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This is really a tough one to get right Lestat... Thank you for this word collection. Sublime seems to be near perfect but it also has a Divine connotation which may be very accurate... Let me sleep on it. Lcnj

Sublime is perfect but it is just an adjective. We need a noun. Lcnj 20:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

When there is a will, there is a way... My initial instinct was correct. "Al 3ula" العُلى is correctlly translated as "the sublime". It appears that "the sublime" is an accepted noun... ^[2]. I will move to change the translation and close this debate unless someone else disputes my conclusion. Lcnj 21:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Good! "The sublime" it is. —LestatdeLioncourt 21:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I must admit, I've never heard the word "sublime" used as a noun. Nonetheless, I think it can be used as a noun. One thing to note is that the way it is now doesn't make "the sublime" sound like it has any relation to Lebanon. For instance, if I say "For Lebanon, the people and the flag!" the term "the people" tends to be associated with the term "Lebanon". However, to my ear at least, using the word sublime as a noun sounds more like if I were to say "For Lebanon, the humor and the flag!". That is, again, to my ear at least, the noun "the sublime" sounds like something not necessarily related, if that makes any sense. I don't think it's necessarily grammatically wrong however, and the meaning of the word seems to fit, so I'm leaving it for now. — George Saliba ^[talk] 02:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"al-'ula" here does refer to an abstract idea, not something related to Lebanon, so the translation "the sublime" is correct. —LestatdeLioncourt 13:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Lestat often amazes me with his brilliance and concise pinpointing of the exact issue at hand!... As for George... well... whattadmatta you?... see Sublime... read and learn!... As Lebanese, we are heavily influenced by the work of world philosophers including, but not limited to, Victor Hugo, Kant, etc... Lcnj 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you :). —LestatdeLioncourt 13:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hezbollah and "occupied Palestine"

I've commented out the references regarding Hezbollah and "occupied Palestine": Hezbollah declared that it would not stop its operations against Israel until this area and what they proclaim to be "occupied Palestine" were liberated. Neither reference[2][3] mentions either the Shebaa farms or "occupied Palestine" as a reason for continued operations against Israel by Hezbollah. Please look for such references for citation after this statement. — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Hezbollah-led"?

I'm just wondering why "Hezbollah-led" is more NPOV that "Opposition". The FPM is also a major party of the opposition, and played a significant role in the Tuesday strike. I feel it's POV to suggest that Hezbollah called for and led the protest, when in fact the opposition as a whole coordinated the strike. —LestatdeLioncourt 20:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Lestat... Here, I must respectfully disagree. It is less a POV and more a fact. Relative to Hezbollah, the FPM does not have the say in mobilizing massive demonstrations, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah does and it should be stated as such. Lcnj 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is biased about using the term "opposition"? —LestatdeLioncourt 21:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Lestat here. To state that Nasrallah called for a strike is not POV (and factually accurate to the best of my knowledge), but the term "Hezbollah-led" can be considered POV, even if true. To say it was "Hezbollah-led" can be interpretted as meaning "called for by Hezbollah's leadership" (which it was), but it can also be interpretted to mean "Hezbollah members led the rioters and caused the ensuing violence", which wouldn't be neutral. I don't believe this was the original intention, but the meaning is vague. I don't see anything particularly POV about using the term "Opposition". Just my thoughts. — George Saliba ^[talk] 01:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Then this friendly dispute is settled... I was out numbered by 2 people I respect. Opposition it is. Lcnj

I'd suggest considering adding a note about Nasrallah's speech calling for the strike in also, as it is factually accurate and makes the point that I think you intended – namely that Nasrallah called for the strike to occur. — George Saliba ^[talk] 02:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a good wording would be "the Hezbollah-led opposition" which I came across in several news reports and is a correct, neutral portrayal of the situation. I'll be making the change now. Feel free to revert if you disagree :). —LestatdeLioncourt 09:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds accurate enough to me. — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. Thank you Lestat and George for your help. God save Lebanon!... What is about to happen is unconscionable!... Lcnj 16:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Amen. —LestatdeLioncourt 17:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FA status

Great work from George.Saliba and LestatdeLioncourt Lcnj ;) on the Lebanon article and other Lebanon-related articles. Would you think about working to get this page to the Featured article status? I was going to start this project, but due to the lack of editors, I quickly quit it, plus I've been (and still) busy. CG 21:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks CG. I'm still a bit busy myself currently, but I'll try to check in when I can. Have you thought about bringing the issue to WikiProject Lebanon? If we got a subpage there with links to the FA article requirements, as well as a list of peoples key concerns with the current state of the article (gap analysis), I think that would go a long way. Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 04:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

A peer review is what you're looking for George :). Do you think it's time we had one? —LestatdeLioncourt 13:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Soon perhaps. I think we really need to clean up the current events section first. The whole thing can probably be reduced down to two paragraphs – one regarding the background of the protests and sit-in started December 1, and one talking about the violent events that have occurred (especially the recent strike), as well as efforts by the Arab League and Turkey (and possibly others?) to broker a compromise, thus far unsuccessfully. — George Saliba ^[talk] 22:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey CG... I know George and Lestat should be credited for their good work... but it is really not nice at all to ignore the work of Lcnj!.... Just kidding of course. :) Lcnj 06:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] January 26, 2007

No violence took place on January 26. The clashes reported happened on Thursday January 25th. I'm also going to delete the "snipers were captured" bit, as an official statement clearly said that the snipers have not been arrested yet.

CodeName_88 10:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] green Lebanon cedar, or Lebanon cedar in green?

This is a pretty minor issue, but I'm going through the article and trying to make it the best that I can, bit by bit. The original sentence regarding the flag stated:

The flag of Lebanon features the Lebanon Cedar in green against a white backdrop, with two horizontal red stripes on the top and bottom.

I've changed this to:

The flag of Lebanon features a Lebanon Cedar in green, set against a white backdrop, and bounded by two horizontal red stripes along the top and bottom.

I think this reads and sounds better, but it's all stylistic, so feel free to disagree. My question is if people think that "green Lebanon Cedar" denotes a different meaning to people than "Lebanon Cedar in green" – i.e., that there are different colors of Lebanon Cedars and this one is green, versus a normal Lebanon Cedar colored green. I think the "green Lebanon Cedar" sounds better in the sentence (since we could then remove the first comma – "...features a green Lebanon Cedar set against a white backdrop..."), but I don't want to change the meaning. The variation I'm considering would look like:

The flag of Lebanon features a green Lebanon Cedar set against a white backdrop, bounded by two horizontal red stripes along the top and bottom.

Any thoughts? — George Saliba ^[talk] 06:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I've actually changed the sentence back similar to how it was originally:

The flag of Lebanon features a Lebanon Cedar in green against a white backdrop, bounded by two horizontal red stripes along the top and bottom.

Pretty minor changes, but basically I changed "the" to "a, "with" to "bounded", and "on" to "along". — George Saliba ^[talk] 06:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi George... I would propose a little simplification "The flag of Lebanon features a Cedar tree in green against a white backdrop, bounded by two horizontal red stripes along the top and bottom." - I am not sure I like the word "bounded" however. Any thoughts from you? Lcnj 06:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I was initially thinking of the word "flanked", as I'd like to express that the tree is effectively touching the red stripes (by definition it goes right up to the red), without directly saying so or adding any additional words, but "flanked" generally has a horizontal connotation. Another option was "bordered", but that has a connotation of four sides usually. I'm open if people have other suggestions. Also, changing it to just Cedar is probably a good idea (less repetetive), as long as the cedar links to the Lebanon Cedar article. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, just Cedar is far better... You can link it to the Lebanon Cedar article if you want, but I don't find it necessary or even aesthetically appealing... I still don't like "bounded"... but definitely not "flanked".... I would have proposed "The flag of Lebanon features a Cedar tree in green against a white backdrop, with two horizontal red stripes along (or at) the top and bottom." but I do not want to hinder your effort to "express that the tree is effectively touching the red stripes" even though I don't find it that necessary. So, I will borrow from Lestat's techniques and introduce random Synonyms:

belted, bordered, boundaried, circumscribed, compassed, confined, contiguous, defined, definite, delimited, determinate, edged, encircled, enclosed, encompassed, enveloped, fenced, finite, flanked, fringed, girdled, hedged, hog-tied*, limitary, restricted, rimmed, ringed, surrounded, walled Lcnj 16:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"edged" might not be bad. The main flag article uses "enveloped", though that sounds kind of funny to me. I may just go back to "with". P.S. "hog-tied"? lol — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"hog-tied" is sure funny as hell... lol... I briefly noticed it but was too lazy to take it out. Anyway, Geprge... Good News!... EUREKA!... "The flag of Lebanon features a Cedar tree in green against a white backdrop, contiguous to two horizontal red stripes along the top and bottom". I think this will work!... Lcnj 01:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent events section

The "Recent events" section is overwhelming. It takes slightly less than half of the article. As all its contents are found in the Cedar Revolution, 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict and 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest, It should be shrinked to just one or two paragraphs that covers the after-Taef period (maybe one about the internal situation and one about the conflicts with isreal). It propose this draft (my English is not very good):

• After the end of the civil war, Lebanon saw a period of relative calm...with the Syrian military presence.
• former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated...demonstrations...more assassinations and bombs...withdrawl of Syrian forces...new government...Anti-government protests.
• A mention about the withdrawal of Israel from the south, the Operation Grapes of Wrath, the fightings with Hezbollah, the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.

I just realised that this is a lot of materials to be fit in 2 paragraphs. What do you suggets? CG 08:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know that we need to limit it to exactly 2 paragraphs, but in general it needs to be cleaned up and summarized. It would also be great to get more information on the other several thousand years of history. I'm not sure one short paragraph does the ancient history section justice. Do you think it better to create a subpage to start trying to collapse all this data at once, or is it better to incrementally change the existing article? — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The two-paragraphs is just a suggestion but their should be a balance between the different periods. You can't shrink the civil war, which is historically much more significant, to one paragraph and write two pages about the last few months. The same concept applies to the 4000 years of Lebanese history. And in the same time the History section should not be very detailed and should not take a lot from the article. Check some country FA's for examples. And modifying the article or rewriting in a subpage both work for me. CG 09:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Here's my initial suggestion for shrinking the Assassinations section, though I think that these sections should all be merged. I haven't put this into the article yet, it's just a first, rough draft.

On February 14, 2005, former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated in a car bomb explosion. Millions of Lebanese blamed Syria for the attack, but Syria denied any involvement. In the following weeks and months, many other prominent Lebanese politicians and journalists were injured or killed in a series of assassination attempts, including May Chidiac, Samir Kassir, George Hawi, Gebran Tueni, and Pierre Amine Gemayel.

Again, just a rought start. — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice start :) Some comments:

• I'm against mentioning the names of May Chidiac, Samir...Pierre Gemayel. Comparing to other assassinations, Bachir Gemayel and Kamal Jumblatt are much more notable. Therefore I suggest we keep the name of Rafic Hariri. In addition, some assassinations (especially that of Pierre Gemayel) and their relation with Syria are controversial, and since this article is not the place to discuss it, they should be removed for NPOV.
• Millions of Lebanese blamed Syria for the attack. It has also a little bit of POV (Lebanon is only 4 million people).

Here's my suggestion:

On February 14, 2005, the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri triggered large demonstrations and led to the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon. The following months saw a series of bombings and assassinations of politicians and journalists.

Much more compact. So we have the place to discuss the new gov and the anti-gov protests. CG 09:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds pretty good to me. I'm not really that familiar with all the various politicians and journalists who were assassinated. Also, the "millions" was just from the source that the article currently cites. I think the "and led to" should be changed to "that led to" – that way it sounds like the demonstrations led to the withdrawal, rather than the assassination (which may have, but only indirectly by way of the demonstrations). Also, maybe add "prominent Lebanese" before the "politicians and journalists" at the end, just to make it clear that they were in Lebanon, and that they weren't like local mayors and such, if that makes sense. — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds also good to me. So here's the result:

On February 14, 2005, the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri triggered large demonstrations. That led to the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon. The following months saw a series of bombings and assassinations of prominent Lebanese politicians and journalists.

CG 10:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New gov and anti-gov protests

Here's a first draft of the second part:

New legislative elections took place and a new government was formed with Fouad Siniora as Prime minister. However, disagrements and ____ triggered a series of Anti-Government protests led by the opposition.

CG 10:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

While I salute your efforts to summarize the Recent Events section, I can't help but feel that two paragraphs wouldn't be enough. I think two paragraphs for the Cedar revolution and the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, and perhaps one for the Current Events section is a fair distribution, considering the importance of these events. What do you think? —LestatdeLioncourt 14:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Lestat here. Also, with all due respect, while I salute CG's and George Saliba's efforts, I feel that George is obviuosly unfamilar with much of Lebanon's political history and people (a critical part of it is not even found on the net), let alone the delicate details and nuances. I just know that he keeps Lestat in check!... :) Also, I don't know for sure yet how knowledgeable is CG with all the intricate details of Lebanese history and political mess... So, on this issue, I am siding with Lestat... Lcnj 15:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments but I disagree. This article aims at giving a general view of the country, and in particular the history section should be an overview of the events that marked Lebanese history. There also should be a balance between different events. In its current state, the article describes 4000 years of history in one small paragraph, 70 years (mandate to civil war) in 3-5 paragraphs and one year of history in over 6 pages. I didn't say these should be proportional but somewhat balanced. While the last events are notable on historical timeline, there are also more important events that shaped the country.

As I said to Saliba, taking the examples of the people who were assassinated (from Hariri to Gemayel). They are notable, but there were more important assassinations that shaped the country (Bachir Gemayel, Kamal Jumblatt which triggered massive massacres). In the same way, the last claches that led to the death of 5-10 people doesn't compare to the thousands of death in the civil war. Also, this government wasn't the most controversial one, Aoun and Hoss triggered more international reactions. The last war wasn't more destructive than in 1982. Briefly, the article is not the place to discuss latest events even if they look important enough due to their recentism (see Wikipedia:Recentism), that's why overemphasizing recent events is a type of systemic bias and I feel that the last events should not exceed 2 paragraphs. CG 15:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the key here is to remember recentism, and just generally tidy things up. I don't think we should necessarily restrict ourselves to 2 paragraphs, or any set number of paragraphs – let's just clean it up. Lcnj is right, I'm absolutely no expert on the intricacies Lebanese politics, but CG is also right that the article currently gives undue weight to very recent events (for which there are other articles).

Rather than coming up with a set number of paragraphs, what do you all think of coming up with a general ratio of information? For instance, for every paragraph in the last 10 years of history, we aim to have one paragraph for the last 100 years, and one paragraph going all the way back to ancient times? I don't know what the exact ratio should be, or what time periods we should aim for, but I think the key goal here is to balance the history section out a bit. — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I highly suggest reviewing some of the other FA country articles, such as Turkey. They seem to be excellently balanced, and we should try to do the same, in our own way. — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

How about creating a separate section for discussing improvement to each section that needs it? —LestatdeLioncourt 13:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on improvements to the introduction

I have some suggestions regarding the introduction that I think will help better lead the article.

• I'm pretty happy with the first three sentences of the first paragraph, but the last sentence needs work. I don't think we should go into any political depth here, but rather explain Lebanon's diversity and how it has shaped the country into something unique. Think "East meets West", Arab and French intermixed, Christians and Muslims, etc.
• Next we have a paragraph that talks about Lebanon prior to the civil war, but only by 20-30 years(?). Personally I'd rather see some older historic background on Lebanon, that shaped the nation we see today. The Pheonicians, Greeks, Persians, Greco-Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders, and Ottomans mentioned later in the article. Nothing too deep or specific, but maybe some discussion regarding how some of these influcened the architecture (Baalbek, Byblos, etc.), art, literature, language (French and Turkish flavors on top of the Arabic base I would think). Then maybe finish with something alluding to the periods of violence Lebanon has seen as a result of the diversity that shapes it as a nation.
• I'd make the third paragraph dicuss the civil war. Mostly an overview of its complexity, and the toll it took on the nation and the people. Finish by maybe mentioning the Cedar revolution and the war in 2006, but only briefly (one good sentence each maybe). I don't think I'd even mention the current protests/sit-ins until we have a better idea of where it ends up going (avoiding recentism).

Just laying out some general thoughts as I start to look through this. — George Saliba ^[talk] 12:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice thoughts, according to WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize the article, and Lebanon wasn't all history and wars. Here's my proposals:

• • The first paragraph should be cut from Israel to the south. I don't feel we should waste space from the lead to describe the flag displayed right next to it. If you want we can say The Lebanon Cedar is the emblem of Lebanon
  • The second paragraph should be a quick overview of its history. barely a mention of Lebanon's relations with Israel and Syria.
  • The last paragraph should be devoted to the complexity of the lebanese society which led to its unique political system and culture. CG 15:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think these are good suggestions too. We should look to Turkey, a country article that has achieved FA, for a good template of how to balance these out I think. — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some moving around

I moved the sections of the debate that was going around with Jaakobou to a subpage because it was taking up too much space (epsecially for an inactive debate). When he decided to resume the debate, we can retrieve them from that subpage. I hope no one minds. —LestatdeLioncourt 13:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. — George Saliba ^[talk] 20:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

sounds good to me also... exams are a bitch and then a new semester starts... i hope we can get back to the orderly debate sometime before next sylvester.. *faint* Jaakobou 11:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology - help to remove junk text

How can we delete this text in the Etymology Section: "lebanon sucks lolypops and i hate the little train that could"?

When i try to edit the section this text does not appear, but for some reason there it is in the article itself.

Thanks Johnny911 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.144.94.203 (talk) 03:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

Hi Johnny911. You may want to check (clear) your browser cache. I can't see the text you're referring to anywhere in the article. Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 09:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lebanon Portal : Anybody seen the "hegemony"?

ATTENTION EDITORS-

Is anybody checking the Lebanon Portal lately? I think it is growing a bit too biased and is depicting a kind of inclination of our country to a specific political and religious group's colors... My point being: shouldn't we be responsible (as Lebanese editors) of our Portal's content and objectivity as well?

Thank you.

-- Jixavius 10:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dot comma

For what it's worth, I didn't add ".," although I did make the error of not deleting it. It came from [4] Art LaPella 19:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, it's fine. Mistakes like this happen all the time :) —LestatdeLioncourt 14:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements to the article

Just to continue CG's and George's intiative, I'm creating this section to discuss improvements to the article section by section. The main issue was length, so I guess most of what we'll be doing will involve summarization. I'll just put down the headers and see what comments you may have. I think it's best if we start with identifying the problems ineach section, and then draft some improved text. —LestatdeLioncourt 14:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. It would be a good idea to stick to the same level of indentation for all your posts under the same section. It will improve readibility a lot for long discussions. —LestatdeLioncourt 15:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

I didn't know where to insert this post, so I thought I'd add it right here within the Lead section (and as you will see in a second, it could just as well go with the Etymology section or even under a brand new one entitled Flag). In fact, I have once been told by an old connoisseur of MidEastern culture that the 4 colors used in most Arab countries' flags have a certain meaning, that were described as something like this in by the old Arabs:

• White : Bïdon kouloubouna; i.e. White are our intentions
• Green : Khodron 'aradina; i.e. Green are our fields
• Black : Asswadon madina; i.e. Black is our past (because of tribal invasions and wars)
• Red  : Wa homron mawaki'ouna; i.e. and Red are our battlefields (because they would die fighting to preserve honor and dignity)

I think this is important to note, for Lebanon has adopted these colors meaning the same thing (and that is basically what we learnt in primary school: White for peace, Green for the eternal cedars, and Red for the blood of our martyrs). Only the color Black is missing, and I think for quite a good reason: Lebanon has no history of bloody tribal wars, per se. Point being, I strongly feel the issue of the meaning of our national colors should not be ignored. We can surely look up references if other editors feel this should be mentioned in this article. Thanks. --Jixavius 17:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This fact, if it is clearly referenced and sourced, rather belongs to Flag of Lebanon. CG 18:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Thank you CG —Jixavius 12:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

This section looks fine to me. —LestatdeLioncourt 15:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed quite fine and concise. May I suggest that the numeber of times the word Lebanon (and the word Cedar if you want) has been mentioned in the old testament be mnentioned? References I found on this subject are such: [5] [6] (and this one has some nice facts to keep in mind also -> ) [7] --Jixavius 17:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestion :)... I've added it to the main article. —LestatdeLioncourt 14:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography and climate

[edit] Administrative divisions

[edit] Demographics

The Lebanese people subsection should be removed, and the Demographics subsection should be merged with it's parent Demographics section. The List of Lebanese people belongs as a See Also at the bottom of the page, if at all. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The last few sentences are about Economics, not Demographics, and should be moved. — George Saliba ^[talk] 07:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you rememeber, but I tried to that once. Lcnj thought that it should stay and I didn't think it was important enough to argue about. We should consult with him before making the change. Anyways, if we make these changes the paragraph becomes: —LestatdeLioncourt 15:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Lestat for your courtesy... I have a new name now... :) In view of the Global picture, I agree with George... Worldedixor 00:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey new-Lcnj. Hope all is well. I've gone ahead and also moved the last sentence to the Economics section for now. Also, did you intentionally remove the See also link that was pointing to the main Demographics article? I was just suggesting merging the ==Demographics== with the ===Demographics=== section headers, not actually merging that article. Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 00:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey George baby... no I must have removed it unintentionally... Please feel free to fix it... You two are doing an unbelievable job.... I have no admin ambitions... but if you or that "clinically insane" teen ager want to run, you both have my support...  :) Worldedixor 00:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

No adminship ambitions yet :), but thanks for the offer... (for future reference, I prefer "clinically insane" ;)). I have granted myself an obscene amount of liberity in rearranging the posts under this section. I already know that I'm a control freak, but I'll leave you to find a more artistic way of making that clear to me. —LestatdeLioncourt 14:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ya7oqqou Li Lestat ma laa Ya7oqqou li ghayrihi :)... Worldedixor 18:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

And the Nobel prize for ingenious niceness goes to... —LestatdeLioncourt 13:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

why... thank you Lestat... it takes one to know one... :) Worldedixor 08:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

[edit] Education

[edit] Culture

[edit] Politics

[edit] History

[edit] Recent Events

At this rate, I calculate that Lebanon#Current situation will be longer than the rest of the entire article by the end of next year. Art LaPella 17:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. This section needs to be cut down to one or two paragraphs. — George Saliba ^[talk] 22:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I would even go beyond that and suggest moving it to an independent article, and for some reasons:

• No other articles for countries contain such sections (see even: United States of America, France, and even Iraq which is witnessing an even shakier scene than ours in Lebanon)
• If you would notice the evolution of the article, it goes something like this: after the Civil War which is lightly described (or as they say in French: survolée rapidement), the Recent Events section becomes like this lengthy summary of some RSS feeds from a news site...
• So what I suggest is: move this part to another page/article in order not to waste all the efforts put in its making; so we could leave a summary here similar to the Civil War passage and refer to 2 different articles that deal respectively with a) the Martyrs case, starting Hariri and ending Gemayel, and b) the Israeli Lebanese Conflict..

The article should be eventually a definition of the country Lebanon i suppose, and much less a detailed news bulletin of what is going on since February 2005 in the country. --Jixavius ^@ 19:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There is already such an article at 2006 Lebanese Anti-Government Protest. I've been personally holding off on cleaning up this section (and the main article as well) until the protests draw to a close. Hopefully that happens sooner rather than later, but you never know. — George Saliba ^[talk] 19:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Amen, George... Lebanon has had enough already since the summer... Anyway, all this section needs is simply to be cut down to one or two paragraphs and I would like to leave it up to you to do that. Worldedixor 07:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I managed to cut down the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict to a considerably smaller size. This is just the raw text. It still needs wikilinks and references (I'll get to those later) and some more editing. Tell me if you think anything important has been left out. —LestatdeLioncourt 17:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm feeling a little crazy here, but go along with me. Would anyone mind if I cut off the whole Current Situation section out of the article and placed in a subpage pending improvement? The actual situation in Lebanon seems to be going nowhere. I don't think we can postpone working on that section anymore. —LestatdeLioncourt 17:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Good call. A lot of that information can be dumped to 2006–present Lebanese political crisis too. — George Saliba ^[talk] 17:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The Current Situation section is now located here. —LestatdeLioncourt 16:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also

[edit] Request

Please enable editing by new users. This is not good English: A Middle Eastern country, Lebanon is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the west with a 225 km coastline, by Syria to the east and north, and by Israel to the south. The Lebanon-Syria border stretches for 375 km, while the Lebanon-Israel border is 79 km in length.

This is better: Lebanon, a Middle Eastern country, is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the west along a 225km coastline, by Syria to the east and north, and by Isreal to the South. The Lebanon-Syria border stretches for 375km; the Lebanon-Isreal border for 79km. RedRabbit1983 11:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Another example: due to the fact that should be because. RedRabbit1983 12:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No official census has been taken since 1932, reflecting the political sensitivity in Lebanon over confessional (i.e. religious) balance.

This doesn't make sense. RedRabbit1983 12:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I've made the changes you requested. If you'd like to be making further changes yourself, you can request for the article to be unprotected here. I don't see what's wrong with the sentence you quote, though. In Lebanon, the issue of who's the majority and what sect has more followers has always been highly sensitive. Perhaps you feel the sentence needs more clarification? Any suggestions for improvement are welcome :) —LestatdeLioncourt 13:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New map

I've updated the map template that I added to the article some weeks ago, based on some of the suggestions and feedback I gotten. I've changed the map, and included the districts as clickable links in addition to the governorates. If anyone has any further comments or suggestions, please let me know (here, on my talk page, or on the tempalte talk page). For a reference, the old version is here. I'm also probably going to go through the district articles at some point and at this template to them (replacing the older image) Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 08:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Quick note: The map is currently included here if you want to see how it looks in the article itself. — George Saliba ^[talk] 08:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)