Talk:Laws of the Game

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Contents

[edit] New Page Added

I've created a new page (The Ball In and Out of Play), so that we come closer to completing the 'Current Laws of the Game' section of this page. Drumnbach 20:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Note: My source for the original Laws of December 1863 are from a book published in 1953 called "The History of the Football Association". A large number of websites (and some books) list only 13 original laws, with slightly different wording. I am currently waiting for the FA to confirm the laws. Mintguy (T) 08:29, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)


An email exchange regarding the above discrepency between the original LOTG as pubished in a number of books and on a many other websites and as listed on this page.

Hi XXXXXX

Thank you very much indeed for drawing our attention to this.

There seem to be a number of different versions of these rules - ours
was taken from "The Early Years"  published by the AFS in 1983.

In the FIFA library is a different version which is titled
"A facsimile of the 14 laws of the game  established in 1863"
and is this is in the FIFA Centenial Book. 

We are going to do some further research to ascertain the correct
version and I will get back to you.

Best regards

MXXX BXXXX
AFS 
18 St Philip Square
London
SW8 3RS
United Kingdom

Tel: + 44 (0)20 7720 XXXX
Fax: +44 (0)20 7627 XXXX
Email: ****@11v11.com
Website: http://www.11v11.co.uk

The information in this message is confidential information
and may also be legally privileged.  It is intended only for
the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, 
review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message, 
or any attachments to the message, is strictly prohibited. 
If you have received this document in error, please immediately
notify us by telephone and delete the original message.
Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXX XXXX [1]
Sent: 12 May 2005 10:11
To: enquiries@11v11.com
Subject: Error on site.


According to 'The History of the Football Association' pub 1954
the Laws of the Game you give for 1863 appear to be incorrect. 
There are some slight differences in wording, but the most 
significant difference is that you list 13 laws and the book
gives 14 laws. 

Regards

XXXXXX XXXX

--- Jooler 09:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Melvyn Bragg's new ITV Programme has The First Rule Book of the Football Association (1863) as one of the 12 most influential UK books. On the programme last night he showed what appeared to be a copy of the original, with 13 laws. The FA website confirms that 14 laws were written. I think Bragg's copy had rule 13 missing--luke 17:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

14 rules were posted to news:rec.sport.soccer on Friday February 26th 1993--luke 06:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you have a link to the discussion on Google groups? 11v11.co.uk did not reply any further after the email above and the still show 13 rules on their site. Jooler 13:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This is my recent request for more info on news:rec.sport.soccer. Perhaps using the word "football" more would have helped :)
news message on Original rules of soccer
The last link I gave in that news message will take you to the Friday Feb 26 7:27pm 1993 posting from Richard Coon mentioned earlier. The wording given in his posting must be from pre-December 1863 (eg see the planet-rugby link about rules IX and X). Since I don't have Geoffry Green's book, I'm still trying to track down the origin of the AFS wording (which, with one typo corrected, is letter for letter the same as the wording which Lord Bragg gives.)--luke 06:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Geoffrey Green book also lists a draft set of rules from 24 Novermber 1863 (before the Cambridge rules were brought to the table and hacking and carrying were declared illegal) - which is still 14 rules. Jooler 00:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay The Code War- ISBN 1874427658 page 18 lists the same 14 draft (pre-Cambridge influence) rules, it then goes on to say that the Association published the later (post-Cambridge influence) draft rules as a set of 13 rules. Jooler 01:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi - What's the wording of the post-Cambridge set given by Graham Williams? Same as given by the AFS? On what date were they published and who was involved? Thnx in advance--luke 00:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
He doesn't give them he just says there were 13. Jooler 02:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Here is the rec.sport.soccer link with 14 laws from 1993. Jooler 00:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. In fact these earlier November laws are the ones in the FIFA Centennial Book referred to above in the letter from Mark from the AFS, not the final version published in December at a cost of one shilling. Laws IX and X - (see The schism between the Football Association and Rugby Football) allowing hacking and running with the ball are there in the facsimile on page 20, and I think the explanation of terms shown above the laws is also from November.
Now rule 13 of the original 14 is clearly no phantom, but the notion that there were originally only 13 rules has clearly some momentum behind it, since it is repeated in The Code War - as well as by Lord Bragg and the AFS. It goes back at least to 1899. In the book Football by Montague Shearman and others in The Badmington Library series published by Longmans, Green, and Co. at page 89:-
At the meeting on Dec 8, 1863, a code of rules was drawn up which it will be interesting to recapitulate here, as showing how comparatively few changes have been made in the laws of the game since the formation of the Association, in proportion to the worldwide scientific development of the game itself. They were as follows...
Thirteen laws are then given, being substantially the same as the ones now on the AFS website
No-one has yet sent me a scan of the December laws as printed, though Geoffry Green is clearly writing with access to the minute book of the FA. I don't know if even the FA have a print copy, but if they do it would be nice to put a scan up on their website in time for the world cup.--luke 14:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The Geoffrey Green book says that the LOTG were first published in "Bell's Life" (actually "Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle"). It might be possible to obtain a facsimile of the correct edition from The British Library. See http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/newspapers/record.ASP?lngMTitle=12157. Jooler 12:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Cool - I might be able to get there in 3 weeks. Do you know if they do copies, and could there be copyright questions if we are to put this online--luke 17:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm writing this with a few scans of Bell's Life in London for 1863 now on my pc :) Reading their detailed reports about the new Football Association meetings at the Freemasons' Tavern, it seems that Lord Bragg and the AFS may have it about right after all. I spotted only some tiny inaccuracies on the AFS website compared to the contemporary report published on December 5th (eg for Law 12, 'pretext' should read 'pretence')

The meeting then proceeded to settle the proposed laws, which will have to be confirmed at the next meeting [which was to be on December 8th], and we give them now in extenso [in full detail] as they will be submitted verb. et lit. [verbatim et literatim =exact copy, word for word] for adoption, so that any non-contents [objectors] may not be able to say they did not know, and there are several very important differences from the code published last week.

The following week it is reported that the laws were made as given in this journal last week Later it is reported Mr Lillywhite having been called in, stated that he should wish to publish the rules and laws under the authority of the association, and to have pemission to print them "by authority." With regard to the charge, he considered that in a small pocket form a shilling would be the price, and a larger size, in a roller form, for club rooms could be nicely got up for 1s 6d

I wonder whether any printed copies still exist, and whether the minute book of the FA tallies with Bell's Life's detailed reports--luke 03:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm amazed you got copies of Bells life. how did you do it? Perhaps you could upload them to the Wikimedia commons. Jooler 16:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
They were sent to me. I'll need to contact the sender to ascertain the copyright status, and also whether he is happy for them to be put online. If the FA minute book may possibly be scrutinised in the near future, hopefully we could deduce more exactly what happened all those years ago. Perhaps the reports are based on the minutes--luke 17:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
--------------------
I've posted a couple of messages on news:rec.sport.soccer to try and locate a print of the laws. It would be nice to have access to a scan. If nothing is forthcoming I'll re-write some of the article to include what we've found out so far--luke 02:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Again The British Library will probably have a copy of the first publication. Jooler 09:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I think perhaps the various rules should be put in an article called the evolution of the laws of association football or some such. Jooler 09:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't write that. I'll just add what I know--luke 06:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Since the IFAB minutes from 1886 are available on the web in pdf, I'll suggest that maybe the FA could make their minute book available. Still nothing back yet on the printed laws--luke 05:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I would hazzard a guess that those PDFs are taken from a DVD published by FIFA as referenced at the bottom of this page - http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/corshamref/sub/offhist.htm. Have you tried emailing the FA or FIFA regarding this matter? Jooler 00:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well well - This has just been published - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1851243755/qid%3D1149210555/203-8223528-0491144. Jooler 01:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

wow - ur right on the mark for sure. The FA have suggested to me that putting the minute book (I asked for the years 1863 to 1886) on the web is not a high priority. They never told me about this impending book And Sky may have filmed a piece about the rules - it now looks as if it was partly as publicity for the book and the FA. Looking at the synopsis on Amazon:
..Published to coincide with the World Cup in June 2006, this unassuming little book sets out the thirteen original rules as first written down by a group of frustrated former public school men at the Freemason's Tavern in Lincoln's Inn Fields. Every rule is accompanied by images from the hand-written manuscript preserved at The FA..
and then
..As Sir Bobby Charlton explains in the foreword, the fourteen original rules embody the essence of the game..
Also
The book is officially endorsed by The FA and supported by a publicity initiative backed by The FA
lol - What is going on I wonder, and I also still wonder any printed copies of the laws are still in existence - since the synopsis seems noticeably silent about that. I guess only a print will resolve for certain whether a player shouldn't take the ball from the ground under any 'pretence' whatever, or any 'pretext' whatever :)
May I ask, will you be buying a copy? TIA--luke 05:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't intending to buy a copy. However this has now got EVEN MORE confusing! I sent an email to the person who runs the website on http://www.corshamref.net/ because on that site they use the Geoffrey Green book as a reference and in reply I got a scan of the 14 laws listed in the FIFA Centenial Book. (presumablty the same book mentioned by the AFS above) - BUT what the scan shows is the the draft rules BEFORE hacking was disallowed. So perhaps the FIFA book has it wrong and so when people quote those 14 laws they are in error. But it still begs the question where do the 14 laws described in Green's book fit into it? I'm now starting to think that maybe Green mis-interpreted the FA minute book as well. We really need to get a good contact in th FA to clear this up. Jooler 00:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
My contact is David Barber, who I was told by the Football Museum is the FA's archivist and historian-in-residence. He's aware of this discussion, and it was he who told me that putting the FA minute book on the web isn't a high priority.
And about the facsimile in the FIFA Book on page 20, I did already refer to that (see above) as being the November laws - my guess is that the AFS in fact knew this when they mentioned the facsimile in their message to you, and that they've always been aware about problems in the FA's 1953 official history in respect of this matter - assuming that Mr Lillywhite's printed laws didn't differ from those put to the public in Bell's Life in December. I'm guessing a bit, but these problems may be because the FA didn't allow the author proper access to its archives. That guess is partly based on the fact that a 'go-between' is IIRC mentioned in the preface. David Barber should perhaps be in a better position to clarify this, and maybe also Geoffrey Green or his family have notes of his work.
There is more that I could add but I'll leave it at that for now, and I'll again point David Barber to this discussion hoping that he can help to clear this up. I started out believing that Lord Bragg had it wrong, but it seems he may be right and the confusion goes back to 1953. After all, it seems to have been reported correctly in 1899 :)--luke 06:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I had an email exchange with David Barber a few years ago about a different matter. Okay, sorry I had missed that about the FIFA book. So does the FIFA book make it clear that these laws were BEFORE hacking was removed from the game? I will try to get hold of a copy of the FA 1863 LOTG book today it's quite cheap. Just to clarify and a question of yours that I didn't answer - The Code War lists the 14 pre-hacking laws the same as the AFS and the Green book. Jooler 09:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Thanks for all your help. I so envy you having a copy of the Official History, even if there may be a few errors. To answer your question..no the FIFA centennial book doesn't make this clear. Also, as you'll see the laws are in printed form, and the centennial book says they're from the FIFA library (as the AFS mentioned in their message to you.) My deduction is that FIFA don't have the December final version of the Association laws. If this final version is (like Bell's Life says it is) the same as the one in their precisely worded December 5th published draft, then it differs in several respects from that in appendix four - eg particularly the absence of "A player shall be allowed to throw the ball or pass it to another if he made a fair catch or catches the ball on the first bounce" - thus the first association football games would be significantly less like rugby football than the F.A.'s official history suggests.--luke 03:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Ebay - The 1953 Book was republished as part of a set of four, see here. This was pointed out to me by Julian Carosi of www.corshamref.net. He tells me - In accordance with 'Association Football and The Men Who Made It' (1906) Vol. 1 pages 36-39 it seems as though (following the set up of The FA in October 1863) there were 3 meetings culminating on the 24 Nov meeting were a fresh set of rules were submitted. These were eventually agreed at the 1 Dec meeting with minor changes as described in the Geoffrey Green book. As far as I know, it was always 14 original rules. I don't know where the idea of 13 comes from. I have ordered the The Rules of Association Football, 1863: The First FA Rule book from Amazon as a matter of interest." - so hopefully he might resolve it for us. The new publication wasn't in the shops when I looked on Saturday. 03:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The confusion - summary for newcommers

When this Wikipedia article was created - Mintguy put up 14 laws as the "original fourteen laws of the game" - these were transcribed from "The History of the Football Association"; Geoffrey Green; Naldrett Press; (1953) - pages 36-38 Appendix 4. According to that book these 14 laws were those agreed by the Football Association in December 1863, AFTER the Cambridge Rules had been put on the table (call them post-Cambridge). They are a revision of the another set of 14 laws that were drafted on 24 November 1863, those DRAFT laws (call them pre-Cambridge) contain laws IX and X which allow hacking (kicking a player in the shins) and carrying the ball and are shown on pages 34-35 of that book. The post-Cambridge laws removed these priviledges and set the Association laws onto the path towards the game we know today, rather than towards a carrying Rugby style game. Aside from the two significant law changes, there are some other subtle differences in the wording of the other laws in the Geoffrey Green pre-Cambridge and post-Cambridge laws.

The problem is that other sources give 13 laws as the "original laws of the game". In some cases where 14 laws are mentioned (as in the FIFA centenial book) they are referring to the pre-Cambridge laws (perhaps by mistake).

The main question is - IF, as the recent Lord Bragg and FA/Bodleian Library publications seem to suggest, there were 13 laws in the first official publication of the LOTG, then where did Geoffrey Green's post-Cambridge 14 LOTG come from? 01:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA book

Okay I've got the FA book, and of course it lists only 13 laws. Bobby Charlton's preface also says 13 laws. It looks like that are substantially as currently suggested on this page, with the exception that law 9 definitely says "carry the ball" rather than "run with the ball", there appears to be a couple of other transcription errors as well. So The Times and perhaps even Lord Bragg got it wrong here! - I have also just obtained the 4 Volume set of books on Association Football published by Caxton Press in 1959/60 edited by Geoffrey Green with lots of contributors. The section on the original LOTG was written by a Mr J.R. Witty. The layout is similar to the way the laws are laid out in the 1953 Green book. Green divided the page into a left and and right hand column and put the 1863 Cambridge laws on the left hand side an their equivalent in the FA laws on the right. He thus had the FA laws in an ecentric (1,2,3,6,5,7,4,9,11,12,10,8,13,14) order to match the equivilant Cambridge rule. The Witty pages also split the page into two columns and list the 14 FA Draft laws of November 1863, as numbered, in the left hand column and show the changes from this in the right hand column, sometimes the right hand column simply says "accepted as drafted". The left hand side does not show laws 8 and 9. 9 is understandable because that was one of the laws stricken, but 8 appears to be a mistake, the new FA book and Green include law 8. The other significant thing is that the right hand column is not numbered. So Law 8 (either version) is completely mising' from Witty's pages, both right and left, but as this was the same as the draft laws, he would have just written ""accepted as drafted" anyway. In other respects he agrees with Green's version (specifically law 5 includes the words "where it left the ground in a direction at right angles with the boundary line, and it shall not be in play until it has touched the ground.", however Green's laws 9,10,11,12 are displayed in the order 9,11,12,10 and MOST IMPORTANTLY Green's law 13 is enitirely absent. So barring the additional words on law 5 and what we might take as a few transcription errors, Witty's pages substantially agree with the new FA book . I think that both Green and Witty were probably working with source material that was not entirely clear and that some errors crept into their works (who was going to copy-edit stuff like this?). Green's law 13 was in the original draft laws (except the word bounce is substitued for bound) I suspect he put it in his book as a finalised law in error. At the end of the day we have to accept that the first laws, whatever these books say, must be defined as whatever the FA published at the time by Lillywhite's, and that players up and down the country would have played by. We have to assume that the new FA book has got it right on this one. The new book includes a hand written version on the left of the page and a modern printed version on the right. So I think we have to delete Green's laws from this page, put up the laws EXACTLY as displayed in the FA book, add a note that it appears that some authors have used incorrect transcriptions and finally add another note to say that this page has inadvertantly been displaying the laws incorrectly because of an apparent error in the source material. Jooler 12:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that it would help if I emailed some scans, or put them up on some website for you to pick up somewhere. Is your Wikiemail enabled? I have to admit that mine isn't. Jooler 12:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Just looking through the 1953 Green book again. One of the plates is a photo of the FA minute book open at a table on a page that is clearly first page of the DRAFT laws of November 1863. It looks very much like it it this page that the FIFA facsimile is taken from. However the caption reads "The Football Association Laws as accepted in December 1863, with references to such terms as 'fair catch' and 'making a mark'". This open page from the minute book is a typed or printed page, whilst the laws shown in th new FA book are hand-written. I suspect this is what happened. At the end of the November meeting that got someone to print up the draft laws. At the next meeting the Cambridge laws were brought to the table and the draft laws were re-debated and amended, but they were not printed up in the minute book in the same way that the draft laws were. Hence Green and others had some trouble working out from the minute book what was and what was not agreed. Mind you would have thouht that they would have actually looked at the original publication produced by Lillywhite's. There you go. Jooler 23:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
hey - a lot of stuff to think about for sure. If you look at my first message here on 17th April 2006, I saw what looked like a little printed booklet of the laws on Melvyn Bragg's initial programme of his series about some of the most influential world books - that was supposed to be The first FA Rule Book, but I thought even then it looked a mocked-up version. Maybe the DVD will show it more clearly.
Now a book is published called The Rules of Association Football, 1863: The First FA Rule Book with Lord Bragg's introduction, and it seems still no rule book to be seen! - but please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
After nearly 2 months, it is likely we are much closer to knowing what was actually in that first rule book Published by J Lillywhite with the FA's authority. You have wrestled with this topic for much longer than me, and I defer to you also in terms of your time on Wikipedia to understand how things are done here. I guess it would be right to give more weight to the FA minutes than to the Bell's Life version - that is if we want just one version to consider as The version in the absence of an actual print (still no luck on that point.)
Yes, my wikimail has been enabled for some time but I havent yet worked out how to customise my sig:( I'm busy during the day but if you write me I will try to reply within 24 hours. With kindest regards--luke 06:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article link

Since this article is linked from the Wikipedia start page, I will shortly remove the spurious and somewhat confusing 14 laws per the discussion above. The FA was unfailingly less than helpful in assisting to get to the truth, and incidentally their website still says (at the time of writing) there were 14 laws penned in 1863, even after the publication of their own book on the topic based on the written minutes of the decisive meeting (the link can be found above).--luke 06:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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