Talk:LaVeyan Satanism

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Contents 1 Notice 2 Sadomasochists as theologians? 3 Funeral ceremonies 4 Neutrality dispute? 5 Ayn Rand? 6 Text should be moved to Satanism article 7 Page move 7.1 LaVeyan Satanism → Modern Satanism 8 Changes 9 Change to criticsm (old) 10 Added, and would like more added to it 11 Satanic ethics 12 Copyright and Unbalanced Content 13 Magic? 14 General tone 15 Gender 16 modern satanism redirecting to laveyan satanism 17 A new criticism Section added 18 First Church Of Satan 19 Proposed WikiProject:Left Hand Path 20 Problems with article 21 Magic 22 Deity worship is seen as an intellectual weakness. 23 Satanic ethics

[edit] Notice

As you probably noticed if you're reading this, this article has been redirected to Satanism where it rightly belongs. There is nobody who actually calls themselves a "LaVeyan Satanist;" all such persons in fact merely call themselves Satanists, and rightly so. After all, Anton LaVey founded the religion, and there exist no sources whatsoever to suggest that anyone before him ever called himself a Satanist. I welcome everyone who has contributed here to continue their efforts on the article, and contribute to finally bringing reason and sensibility to this series of articles. Thank you! -Lvthn13 06:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Satanism DID exist for centurys before lavey so enough with your bullshit.

this is LaVeyan satanism and this page is exacly where it should be. Veltiis - 29/12/06

[edit] Sadomasochists as theologians?

"Both feel that man makes his own gods and is fully capable of assuming that role for his Self." This really, really doesn't apply to sadomasochists as a group. 12.222.45.85 19:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Funeral ceremonies

User:212.159.30.47 made some very welcome extensions to the article recently. I do question the last line, however:

There is not even a Satanic funeral ceremony.

I know that Satanic funeral ceremonies have been performed; it's more that they tend to be created ad-hoc for the individual in question. But one would be correct (AFAIK) in stating that there is no standardized LaVeyan Satanic funeral ceremony. - Korpios 16:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Peter Gilmore is releasing one, along with a marriage ceremony, in his book when he publishes it. ts in the final stages before it is published.

[edit] Neutrality dispute?

The entire Criticisms section seems to be from the POV of someone with anti-Satanist tendencies, as well as little sprinklings of POV all through the article. DryGrain 16:41, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hence it's clearly labeled as criticisms. Having created the article, I was pleased to see someone come along and flesh out both Philosophy and Criticisms; IMHO, they did a fairly balanced job. As for that and "sprinklings of POV", do you think you could outline exactly what your objections are rather than jump to label the article with a neutrality dispute header? I'd like to get this straightened out and have the header removed ASAP. - Korpios 17:03, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I can understand how the Criticisms section should be critical; however, the section should be written about the criticism from a neutral point of view, rather than assuming a critical point of view and explaining oneself. I'm assuming you wanted examples of the POV I noticed that was 'not' in the Criticisms section, so here goes. (If you want examples from Criticisms, let me know and I'll shw you what bothers me specifically.)

• It may be surprising to some that Satanism prohibits bad treatment of animals, whilst Christianity does not. - A hint of pro-Satanist POV.

• LaVey did not directly say that women were inferior, but he insisted on them exploiting their "femininity" to gain power and pleasure, rather than what he saw as the feminist mentality of "hating your femininity". - If he never said "Women are inferior", why is the article trying to convince the reader that that is how he felt?

• In this stress on individuality, Satanism is considered part of the Left Hand Path; most major religions are seen as encouraging dull conformity. - More pro-Satanism/anti-other-religion POV...

• ...the group worked with a combination of magick and LaVey's hedonistic, egoistic philosophy. - Seems like 'loaded language' to me; mabye some synonyms that don't seem so much like a derisive criticism would work better?

As I said, other than the Criticisms section, there are only these few sprinklings of mild POV that bothered me.

I have done this same thing on a few other alternative religion articles. I notice that most articles on non-major religions tend to be biased against the religion they describe. When reading them, I try to read it as if I were a follower of it looking for language derisive of it.

On a side note, I've had articles which were completely/mostly my creation get tagged, VfD'd, edited mercilessly, andI have noticed myself becoming defensive of them. I can completely understand how you might feel like that, and as I've had the same thing happen to me, I'd like to mention that I have no feelings of rivalry or anger towards you at all and hope that you don't either.

Thanks, DryGrain 08:27, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's more surprise and confusion; I thought tags were last-resorts after discussion failed. I absolutely don't mind criticism and edits; I just want to understand the rationale. :)

As for the points you raise:

• It may be surprising to some that Satanism prohibits bad treatment of animals, whilst Christianity does not. - You're right; this should be reworded to "Some find it surprising that this form of Satanism prohibits ill treatment of animals." Many expect anything termed "Satanism" to involve some form of animal abuse/sacrifice, but there's no point to blatantly contrasting with Christianity.

• LaVey did not directly say that women were inferior, but he insisted on them exploiting their "femininity" to gain power and pleasure, rather than what he saw as the feminist mentality of "hating your femininity". - I suppose this could use a rephrasing.

• In this stress on individuality, Satanism is considered part of the Left Hand Path; most major religions are seen as encouraging dull conformity. - The second part could be slightly tweaked, but the point should stand; LHPers do typically see "RHP" religions as conformist.

• ...the group worked with a combination of magick and LaVey's hedonistic, egoistic philosophy. - Erm, Satanists view hedonism and egoism as positive traits. :)

Thoughts so far? - Korpios 14:06, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Everything you've mentioned so far is fine with me, but perhaps we could clarify that hedonism and egoism are considered merits rather than flaws to the average Satanist? Also, the entire Criticisms needs to be gone through.If you don't mind, I'll go ahead and do that, and anything you want reverted, bring up to me here. DryGrain 15:54, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I went over the article and made further edits; how's it look now? - Korpios 09:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm content. :) DryGrain 14:47, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ayn Rand?

I'm not certain that the comparison with Ayn Rand is deserved or welcome. Ayn Rand disapproved of violence in all forms, and would have despised Anton LaVey: she opposed mysticism and mystical practices, even in jest, and she would not have appreciated the idea of 'ghettoising' the country - no uninitated force. 'Selfishness', to an Objectivist, is more than material gain and physical enjoyment: it is creation, enlightenment, understanding, and contentedness with oneself. Additionally, Rand and Objectivists believe that all wealth should be earned: $100 tithings are out.

Egoism and Objectivism are not synonymous - if there is a genuine link to or influence from Ayn Rand, I should like to hear the case. Otherwise I suggest that this reference is removed.

The article does not compare the Laveyan philosophy to that of Rand, it just says Lavey was influenced by Rand. He must have read her books, or something. Should be okay.

Selfishness can not be qualified, I'm afraid. Objectivists are rationalists and subsequently they justify their "selfish" saintly behavior as means to a utopian end. It is just as pejoratively selfish for a group of "enlightened" sorts to lobby their brand of utopia as it is for me to Satanically insist on my right to be left alone--"humanity be damned". Gladsome 06:27, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Text should be moved to Satanism article

"LaVeyan Satanism" is a misnomer. The only people that use that term are Satanists that want to differentiate themselves from Satanism as a religion, as founded by Anton LaVey. People who affiliante with the religion of Satanism as founded do not call themselves "LaVeyan Satanists", nor do journalists. The information in LaVeyan Satanism should be moved to Satanism and Church of Satan.

I think that if there is a sub-page on Satanism it should be for groups like the Temple of Set and Dark doctrines that diverge from Satanism as a religion.

Before Anton LaVey used the existing term "Satanism" there was no organized Satanic religion, only Christian heretics or small ill-formed groups. It was used as a stigma to attack people, just as the word Jew used to be and recently fascist and anti-semite.

The Temple of Set does not use the term "Satanism" anymore, referring to themselves as "Setians", though they consider themselves to be a Satanic religion.

The Dark Doctrines are insufficiently important, famous or relevant to constitute more than a short note in comparison to the Church of Satan. I am using the Wiki guides in defining it as such. It should be moved into a subsection

Church of Satan Google "Church of Satan": 48,600 Alexa ChurchofSatan.com: 114,134 links to:129

Temple of Set Google "Temple of Set": 16,700 Alexa Traffic Rank for xeper.org: 608,020 links to: 44

compare the above to the following: Dark Doctrines Google "Dark Doctrins":1,770 Alexa apodion.com: 2,364,173 links to:18

for further comparison, the ONA is defunct organization but has almost as many refrences to the phrase "Dark Doctrines" (a phrase that, in google, brings up articles NOT on SAT/TAN Dark Doctrines:

Order Of Nine Angles Google "Order of Nine Angles": 1,150 no known official webpage

If there are no objections, I will make these changes in a few days... the only thin I could think to leave here is a redirect or something stating that LaVeyan Satanism is a term used by Satanists to refer to other Satanists that are aligned with the writings of Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan. People that use this term usually have a different point of view and want to distance themselves from the prodominant view of Satanism.

I object. LaVeyan Satanism and the Church of Satan are not one and the same; the former is a religion, while the latter is an organization. An apt comparison for what you're suggesting would be to conflate Mormonism with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — it just isn't so, even if the concepts are related.

Furthermore, I know several LaVeyan Satanists who do describe themselves as such when discussing their beliefs; I know of many more individuals (myself included) who acknowledge philosophical ties to LaVeyan Satanism while simultaneously acknowledging that LaVeyan Satanism is a religion in its own right (which they do not happen to practice).

You are also wrong to state that LaVeyan Satanists — or members of any of the groups you identify — do not claim or deserve the mantle of religion, whether or not each one claims the term Satanism.

Finally, basing your findings on numerical rankings on Google is far from an objective measure of the worth of an encyclopedia article on a subject.

By the way, would you mind signing your comments in the future?

- Korpios 03:45, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

(from WP:RM)

[edit] LaVeyan Satanism → Modern Satanism

• Incorrect name was "fixed" by cut-and-paste move while adding new content. Maybe should be move, not sure. Pakaran (ark a pan) 15:43, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There was no discussion here regarding such a rename, so I'm moving the article back to its original spot. I'll address the comments above regarding having a dedicated article for LaVeyan Satanism separately. - Korpios 03:25, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ok sorry. I just saw the cut-and-paste move. If you want I can undelete the deleted revisions, or ask someone to. Pakaran (ark a pan) 03:28, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, that's okay; everything seems fine now. - Korpios 03:19, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm all for moving it. Darkahn 20:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I've done some extensive reworking of this article by eliminating as much POV as I deemed necessary. I would enjoy direct criticism on the content I've included. I am entirely sympathetic to Dr. LaVey and require informed levity from those inclined to disagree with everything that he articulated in his writings and lectures. Any criticisms of what I've cut will be considered provided they are focused on just how the omissions make this a better, more NPOV article. Gladsome 06:27, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ever since the (IMHO misguided) attempt by another user to merge this article with Satanism, I've been watching recent edits more closely; as someone with a fairly (albeit not completely) sympathetic view of LaVey's philosophy, I've been quite happy with your edits. I'd be interested in the input of someone with no sympathy whatsoever towards LaVey's perspective.

BTW, is there any specific reason you didn't sign with your Wikipedia username (albeit linking to your userpage)? It caused a slight bit of confusion.

- Korpios 03:18, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Change to criticsm (old)

Hello, I'm new to the wikipedia concept.

The changes here were made casually by me a few months back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LaVeyan_Satanism&diff=7749814&oldid=7126504

I felt that the statement was loaded, and could have been equally applied to political affiliation. The duration of membership is lifelong. Without a formal resignation, actual membership would be considered for that duration. As no numbers have ever been released, there is simply no waying of knowing how long people adhere to the tenants. As membership is also not required for people to adhere to the philosophy or practice th religion, this is simply to vauge of a statement to hold any water.

However, there is a seed of truth in the second part. By the nature of LaVeyan Satanism, youth going through the rebellious phase are likely to be drawn towards the groups image of occultism and iconoclasm, either precived or real. This is not quite the same as the religion/philosophy being a phase, but of the appeal of said philosophy by certain individuals goign through phases. These individuals hardly reflect the real religion/philosophy as thier adherence is mostly in name only, and even then mostly for shock value. Despite this latter point, it is a legitimate criticism to point out the appeal and subsequent outgrowing of the phase, so long as a destinction/disclaimer is made of thier actual degree of understanding and practice.

---

While that is a good point (second part) the CoS doesn't allow minors to join the CoS, and states that times change, and so do opinions. The fact that these kids go through this stage doesn't have anything to do with the Church (directly at least). they do nothing to attract any form of members, so It wouldn't be completely beneficial to add without pointing this out.

--Vellocet Malchickawick

[edit] Added, and would like more added to it

I added the god in satanism section (a while ago actually) and it doesn't really have meat. I would enjoy other wikers adding something useful and accurate to it. -- Vellocet Malchickawick

[edit] Satanic ethics

Hello, I'am making the nl:Modern_Satanisme page on the dutch wikipedia and I'am wondering, if I can put the ethical rules, the nine satanic statements, eleven rules of the earth and the nine sins on wikipedia. I think there can be a copyright problem an I saw you didn't put it on the page.

[edit] Copyright and Unbalanced Content

The Nine Satanic Statements, Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, and Nine Satanic Sins have two major issues:

1) there is no mention of the sourc - these are copyrighted pieces by Anton LaVey from his 'Satanic Bible' and Blache Barton's 'The Secret Life of A Satanist'; they also appear on the Church of Satan website. They should, if appearing in context, appear with the appropriate credit, as they are effectively articles reprinted in full.

2) These three pieces take up a disproportionate amount of space; they do not represent LaVeyan Satanism, only a few of the smaller aspects of it. A comparison would be an article on Christiany which used only 'Psalms' to represent the Bible. I will happily come back and re-write these sections to provide a more general overview of LaVeyan Satanism - but would it be preferable to keep these pieces intact (and create a much longer article around them) or to replace them with more representative pieces and quotes, keeping the article shorter ?

Furthermore, the 'Criticism' section, rather than providing an overview of the criticisms, current and historical, levlled against LaVeyan Satanism, actually reads as a criticism in itself. Also, it is generally more critical of the Church of Satan, which should clearly be under the entry for that organisation, than it is of the philosophy of LaVeyan Satanism, which this article puports to be about. I feel the whole section could be removed; if this is not acceptable, again, I will happily come back to re-write it.

--Euchrid9 09:34, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

As per the above, I have gone through the 'criticisms' section, and I can find no reason for its presence. For the following reasons, I have removed it:

Firstly, there are no sources or references cited. I have read a lot of Satanic literature, for and against, over the years, both in print and on the internet. I have never seen any of these criticisms before now. If the references and sources can be shown, and the entire section can be re-written so as to be unbiased and relevant to LaVeyan Satanism rather than the Church of Satan, then perhaps it can go back in.

Secondly, I can find no 'criticisms' section for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism or Christianity - why should there be one here? Even having such a section here and not on other pages on religion implies bias and imbalance.

If I get time, I will come back to work on this section a little more, and put in some more references, etc.

• Criticisms removed again, and relevant links put in its place. If someone can argue a good reason for putting a 'criticisms' section here, or can write one that does not appear biased or irrelavant, I would be happy to discuss it. Otherwise, I will check back every so often, and try and update as necessary.

Please check with Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines - the 'criticisms' section is biased (key policies no.2) and potentially offensive (key policies no.4) and there appears to be copyrighted material here (key policies no.3), which I will check out if I get time.

Anyone wishing to put the aforementioned section back again is advised to edit so that it does not fall foul of the above points. Also, please see: Wikipedia is not a soapbox and Wikipedia is not a democracy for further information which relates to my reasons for continuing to try to keep this section objective and informative!

--Euchrid9 15:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magic?

I freely admit that I don't know much about Satanism ,but I had been under the impression that the Church of Satan was materialistic and had no concept of the supernatural. However, the article mentions "magic" several times. Is this actually part of the Church of Satan? It sounds really lame and Wiccan to me. Roland Deschain

if i understand it correctly, "magic" in laveyan satanism isn't what's thought of as magic, as in supernatural power, but is purely psychological or psychosomatic. Gringo300 05:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Gringo is correct. "Lesser Magic" refers to psychology and social-engineering, whereas "Greater Magic" (-usually-) refers to rituals, which of course are merely viewed as psycho-dramatic theatre to invoke emotions in people. One can assume that part of the reasoning behind the use of the word "magic" was to help appeal to the 1960s occultists of the day. Darkahn 21:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General tone

Some parts of the article seem to push a pro-Satanism stance, and making it sound like Satanists are just out for a good time. I'll admit I' mjust getting acquainted with Satanism on the whole, but it did come off as favoring preachiness over neutrally presented information. Also, the sentence "This is as a reminder that to a Satanist, you are the most important being in the universe, and to honor your own vital existence and your life." Should probably lose the second person, but I can't do it without losing the message.

Do you see any religious article on Wikipedia not written primarily by members of that religion? The fact is that on hardly any other religious article is there a call for the primary editors to include a critical tone of the religion. I defy you to find an article on a major religion where the idea that the article should be anything other than sympathetic to that religion would even be entertained.

Part of Wikipedia's neutrality policy is respect for all viewpoints. In an article on Satanism, therefore, it is entirely neutral that the article would be written in a sympathetic tone as opposed to a critical or negative tone. I also suspect that the mere fact that the Satanism articles are specifically directed to clear up misinformation concerning the religion leads many to believe that they must not be neutral.

However, be aware that this article is on my list of article to massively improve. See my work on the article for The Satanic Bible for example to see what I think a truly quality article on Satanic subjects should be. It is unfortunate that so few editors are willing to take the time to really contribute to these subjects, especially since those that do often face massive resistance. --Lvthn13 08:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gender

I reverted the minor edit that attempted to use "gender neutral" language simply because it focused on a single section of the article, creating inconsistency. I personally dislike the idea of using clumsy (s)he and he/she him/her throughout an article and feel that the English convention of using the masculine as default gender neutral (a common convention in almost all Western languages) is sufficient, but if someone insists on doing this, it should be done throughout the entire article and not to single sentences so that the article remains stylistically consistent. --Lvthn13 08:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] modern satanism redirecting to laveyan satanism

modern satanism shouldn't redirect to laveyan satanism. laveyan satanism is NOT the only form of modern satanism. Gringo300 03:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually so-called "LaVeyan Satanism" is the only form of Satanism, and is the only religion that can properly be called by that name. Other groups may attempt to co-opt it, but it doesn't follow that they have legitimacy. -Lvthn13 03:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Werewolf says: This is more a rant about Satansim handled on Wikipedia in general.

First off, I'd like to comment that "Religious, Theistic, LaVeyan, Philosophical" are all misleading terms, really. LaVeyan is the only one that makes sense in its context, but thats rarely used by actual LaVeyan Satanists.

In general, the Satanism introductions are confusing. Anton LaVey (meaning LaVeyan Satanism) advanced first the idea that Satan is a Dark Force of nature. Yet thats listed as "religious" or "Theistic" Satanism. Why? Theistic implies a kind of God. Why not just leave it at "Theistic" Satanism as "religious" is innaccurate.

Why not call the LaVeyan article Religious (as it constitutes a religion as well as philosophy) and term the "Religious" article "Theistic." The labels are confusing and the information seems garbled.

[edit] A new criticism Section added

Seeing as the old one is gone, I have begun a new one, citing common criticisms. I've attempted to keep it actual Criticisms that are not already explained in the other sections and have tried to remain neutral. Any add ons would be helpful, in the spirit of NPOV. Maybe we can finally clean this up and make it into FA material. WerewolfSatanist 05:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Church Of Satan

The Church Of Satan (founded by Anton Szandor LaVey) is neither affiliated with the LaVeyan Church Of Satan, nor with its founder, Karla LaVey.

Karla LaVey's organization uses the Satanic Bible as its foundation, primarily, along with the Satanic Rules and Sins. Hence her church is listed as "LaVeyan Satanism" in Wikipedia. It doesn't mean that its affiliated with any other organization. WerewolfSatanist 18:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject:Left Hand Path

In order to create an organized effort, I've put on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals page a proposed Left Hand Path project to try and sort out all the problems we go through and to help properyly cite and protect things. If you're interested just go to the Project Council/proposals page and add your name to the "Left Hand Path" section. Seeing as there's been a wide variety of edit wars, it might be good to get some organization (and possibly administration to mediate conflicts). Just an idea. WerewolfSatanist 16:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with article

Far too much time is spent on what Satanism is not, reacting to presumed assumptions that a reader might or might not have. The article should directly and clearly define the philosophy put forth by the Church of Satan. No more, no less.

Possible additions might include a reference to Ragnar Redbeard's Might is Right and a more in-depth elaboration of the concept of the Satanist choosing his or her own self as God. TapestryOfFate 19:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally think the article needs to be rewritten. In its current form its not quite as detailed as it could be. The introduction is vague, Satan's role is left horribly undefined when often it was spoken of in way more detail than that one quote gives, and in general things are just short. Perhaps a more comprehensive article based more specifically on the Satanic Bible, interviews with LaVey (in which he speaks of Satan and what the symbol means), and magic. Magic is almost completely not addressed! The Black Mass seems to be the only reference to magic at all! Lesser magic is ignored completely while greater magic is limited to a mockery, and not the constructive powers of what it brings. If there are no objections I can add a section on magic.WerewolfSatanist 06:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magic

I began a magic section, though improvement is needed. Perhaps a new article could be made to govern Satanic magic? Just a suggestion, but for now sources are needed on the magic section, some of which can be found from the Satanic Bible and Satanic Witch and some which can be found on the Church of Satan website. I'll get on it though help is invited! WerewolfSatanist 22:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deity worship is seen as an intellectual weakness.

I loved this line when it was formerly in the article. Was it not from a proper source or something, or was it just taken out because it was better elaborated on in the current form of the article (which can't be denied, the article is now much more elaborate and informational than before)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.234.51.57 (talk) 17:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Satanic ethics

Satanism values tangible, real world accomplishment over intellectualization for its' own sake. Does anyone here disagree that this is relevent and worthy of inclusion? Also, the fundamental Satanic view of human beings as "Just another animal" is heavily influenced by Desmond Morris' works. Should a synopsis of his ideas be included to better contextualize the significance of man as an animal?