Talk:Latvian language
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1.5 million speakers? It is much more, I think.
- Of course, the population of Latvia is greater (close to 2,400,000), but a good percentage of the population speaks Russian, as it was the only officiel language for many years. Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 21:00, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Latvian Institute says there are 1.4 million native speakers in Latvia and about 150,000 abroad. So, the number in the article is quite accurate. We could only make it clear that the number is native speakers, rather than all speakers (which would include a fair part of Russian population in Latvia).Andris 21:08, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
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- In the section Language ans politics, it is already mentionned that Latvian is only 60% of the country's population, so I guess we could leave it that way. Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 03:47, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Closest and only?
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to say Lithuanian is its "closest and only living relative." Besides the fact that Latvian is related to all of the Indo-Europoean languages, if distantly, how can something be both closest and only? It'd be like being my favorite and only sister. The qualifier "favorite," like "closest" makes no sense if "only" is true. NickelShoe 15:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
- I modified it to say "Of the Baltic languages, only Latvian and its closest relative Lithuanian remain." I think this is what was trying to be said, that Lithuanian is the closest relative of Latvian, even among the (mostly extinct) Baltic languages. I'm not particularly happy with my use of the word "remain." Though I think the meaning is clear, I've noticed a hesitance among others to refer to extinct languages in the past tense, so in that sense all languages exist in the present, whether or not they are used. But I think saying that only Latvian and Lithuanian are "used" sounds like the others are being used in closests or church services or something, personally, where "remain" gives a clearer sense of extinction of the other languages. NickelShoe 15:50, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused by the "However, while related, the Latvian and Lithuanian vocabularies vary greatly from each other and are not mutually intelligible." Some years ago I followed Estonian and Lithuanian boards as well and found after a while that I could manage understanding Lithuanian--it didn't seem that much more "foreign" than Latgalian. Linguistically, I find it difficult to support this statement as being accurate. Peters 06:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, I think it may be too strong to say they are mutually unintelligible. Although I cannot understand spoken Lithuanian very much at all, I can at least get the gist of written Lithuanian (maybe it has to do with different accent?). I think the languages are as similar as, say, Portuguese and Spanish. I suppose it depends on what is meant by "unintelligible."--Zilonis 03:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- i speak both Spanish and Portuguese and compared Latvian and Lithuanian is FAR MORE mutually UNINTELLIGIBLE..English and German or English and Dutch would be more appropriate comparison here so yea guess that makes them mutually unintelligible..and Latgalian is a different language not a dialect,but since it's more convenient for the Latvians to clasify it as a dialect and the Latgalians don't care in the least about the official staus of their language or culture..it's considered a dialect(just for the record i find many similarities between Lithuanian and Latgalian perhaps it's just that Latgalians weren't germanized as much as the rest ofLatvia) well anyway Latvian and Lithuanian are mutually unintelligible.
- I agree, I think it may be too strong to say they are mutually unintelligible. Although I cannot understand spoken Lithuanian very much at all, I can at least get the gist of written Lithuanian (maybe it has to do with different accent?). I think the languages are as similar as, say, Portuguese and Spanish. I suppose it depends on what is meant by "unintelligible."--Zilonis 03:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Keyboard mapping
Hi,
Can anyone please write something about Latvian keyboard mapping? It might be interesting - i noticed that in Windows XP there are two options for a Latvian keyboard - one called "Latvian (QWERTY)" which is just the same as English, even without the special Latvian letters (Ņ, Ķ, ģ ...) and another one called "Latvian" which is completely different from QWERTY. I've never seen anything like - it's neither QWERTY nor French AZERTY nor Dvorak:
ū g j r m v n z ē č ž h u s i l d a t e c ´ ņ b ī k p o ā , . ļ
My wild guess is that this mapping was used on typewriters in Soviet Latvia, but any clarification would be nice.
What is the keyboard mapping in common use in Latvia? Is it possible to write the special letters with a QWERTY-like mapping? I couldn't find any way to type a ļ or a ū with the "Latvian (QWERTY)" mapping.
I think that it would be best to write the answers straight to the article - it is really a unique keyboard that deserves a mention in Wikipedia.
Thanks!--Amir E. Aharoni 23:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- No, that is Latvian ergonomic keyboard. It was invented for computers (in 1992 ?). Latvians usually use qwerty keyboard. (Actually, I think that no one manufactures Latvian keyboard.) Diactrical marks are inserted by pressing one of keys that has no letter on them (I have used ~ and " so far) before you type letter that must be marked. As for Latvian (qwerty) - try Ctrl+Alt, maybe that will do. Maybe it would be better if someone would add this to keyboard layout rather than this article -- Xil - talk 19:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Thanks for the answer (liels paldies, right?).
- RightAlt-letter works for me. Īt'š ģreāt fūņ tõ wŗītē Ūņīčõdē! Now it is certainly going to help with my Baltic studies course.--Amir E. Aharoni 07:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think another approach that might work for users of QWERTY keyboards and U.S. or English versions of software would be to program a macro function for one's word processor, so that one could write Latvian in "Internet style", using 2-character combinations that are unlikely to appear in Latvian to represent the ones with diacritical marks (as described by user Xil), then run the macro as a post-process to substitute the appropriate Latvian Unicode character for each 2-letter combination. This should work as long as one has the appropriate printer and screen font files installed. Microsoft Word has a feature called "correct as you type", which I usually disable because I find it so annoying when the computer "corrects" things that don't need correcting. Perhaps this could be put to use, so, for example, if one typed ~n, it would "correct" it by substituting ņ. --QuicksilverT @ 00:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
With Windows XP latvian characters is gotten by right alt + character. Right alt + c = č Same with wowels right alt + a = ā.
[edit] Comma/cedilla
Although the Unicode names for these characters specify them as having cedillas, they are properly printed as commas instead. See [2] and [3]. — Ливай 
02:47, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Livonian substratum
Quote from the article:
- "The Livonian dialect was more affected by Livonian substratum than Latvian in other parts of Latvia."
What is the "Livonian substratum"? Is it the Finno-Ugric Livonian language? The paragraph does not make this clear. ---Alexander 007 05:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- And if it is referring to the Finno-Ugric language, I'm not sure if we can call it a "substratum". May be more properly called an adstratum, I'm not sure; depends on the historical details. Alexander 007 05:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I ment Livonian language. My source named it substratum and said that influence of Livonian language in this dialect is grather than in Latvian language general. What it means is that ancient Livonians lived in Courland and then baltic tribes arrived to the area and slowly replaced/merged with livonians. Thought in Latvian two different words are used to name Livonians and inhabitans of Livonia, I don`t understand what isn`t clear to you - you couldn`t mean that estonians, livonians, germans, balts and other nations living in Livonia could be one substratum, then you could as well say that latvian substratum means i.e. Latvian and Russian, because russians live in Latvia -- Xil/talk 11:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Okay, I wasn't sure that the Livonian language was being referred to, it should have been linked in that sentence; these articles should be written for the outsider as well. About Livonian being a substratum or adstratum, I won't deny that it can be referred to as a substratum, but from another perspective, it is an adstratum. Consider this: the substratum of French is the Celtic Gaulish language, definitely; but what about the Germanic Old Frankish language that came much later and also left a large impact on the French language? Should that also be referred to as a substratum, or a later adstratum? It may be a matter of choice. The same case in the Romanian language: the true substratum of Romanian is a Paleo-Balkan language, but after the 7th and 8th centuries AD, Old Church Slavonic became a great influence, due to not only the Slavonic literature but also because Slavs were absorbed by Romanians. In the case of the Livonian dialect of Latvian, the fact that it is a dialect of Latvian and didn't become a very different language shows that when the Livonians were absorbed, all the major features of Latvian were already formed, and one may thus call Livonian an adstratum. But the term substratum is fine for the article. Alexander 007 12:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- I refered to livonian language in general description of dialects, I thought that it was sufficient, maybe this section needs clean up to avoid confusion between dialects and languages. As for substratum/adstratum - I`m not completely sure if I understand terms correctly, but if I got it right from my dictionary and your explanation it appears to be substratum - Latvian itself has finno-ugric substratum, these dialects just were impacted more than other, althought we could say that these dialects were firstly impacted by substratum and then by adstratum -- Xil/talk 18:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, I wasn't sure that the Livonian language was being referred to, it should have been linked in that sentence; these articles should be written for the outsider as well. About Livonian being a substratum or adstratum, I won't deny that it can be referred to as a substratum, but from another perspective, it is an adstratum. Consider this: the substratum of French is the Celtic Gaulish language, definitely; but what about the Germanic Old Frankish language that came much later and also left a large impact on the French language? Should that also be referred to as a substratum, or a later adstratum? It may be a matter of choice. The same case in the Romanian language: the true substratum of Romanian is a Paleo-Balkan language, but after the 7th and 8th centuries AD, Old Church Slavonic became a great influence, due to not only the Slavonic literature but also because Slavs were absorbed by Romanians. In the case of the Livonian dialect of Latvian, the fact that it is a dialect of Latvian and didn't become a very different language shows that when the Livonians were absorbed, all the major features of Latvian were already formed, and one may thus call Livonian an adstratum. But the term substratum is fine for the article. Alexander 007 12:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Germanic Old Frankish language is a superstratum in French, but this is not relevant in regard to this specific article. -- Janis
Livonian (Finno-Ugric) influence on Latvian are fixed stress (on first syllable).
[edit] Problems in Modern Latvian
Quote from the article:
- "Purists feel that they are fithing barbarisms, while many Latvians describe purists as barbarians, they are accused of raping and killing the Latvian language."
Some very confusing language throughout this section, including this sentence which seems to pun on the word barbarism. I can't rewrite this, as I still don't understand the problems. Verylongnile 20:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- One thing that may help: "fithing" apparently should reading fighting. The sentence you quote is clear to me (also clearly silly the way it's phrased), but it should elaborate on the situation. Alexander 007 10:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- That section needs to be rewritten, I just wanted to note the fact, and somehow illustrate spirits in general public (yes, latvians use phrases like "rape and murder of language"). Writting isn`t my strongest point, it was a typo -- Xil/talk 11:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I realized that Latvians probably often do refer to it as a raping and killing, but I called it "silly" because I would not expect such an extreme metaphor in Brittanica or Columbia encyclopedias. But it's not a big deal, and I withdraw calling it "silly", since this is Wikipedia :-) Alexander 007 13:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- Acctualy I`m quite surprised that no one had done anything with that section - I was to radical. Well, as I said I just wanted to remind about fact and I`m still not sure if this is the best way to describe the matter - some expansion and explenation why exactly these are problems is needed -- Xil/talk 18:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- I realized that Latvians probably often do refer to it as a raping and killing, but I called it "silly" because I would not expect such an extreme metaphor in Brittanica or Columbia encyclopedias. But it's not a big deal, and I withdraw calling it "silly", since this is Wikipedia :-) Alexander 007 13:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree, the language is bad, and it's unclear what the point of the section is. 惑乱 分からん 14:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I wrote the section to note two proceses that more or less impact the language. On the other hand, since you see no point, maybe it would be better to write a section called "changes in Latvian" an include those topics there (if someone could find something about other changes). And, please, stop pointing to my language - I simply am bad at writing (even in my native langugage) and fact that English is slightly diferent from Latvian isn't helpfull. -- Xil/talk 20:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I added some examples.--Zilonis 03:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wrote the section to note two proceses that more or less impact the language. On the other hand, since you see no point, maybe it would be better to write a section called "changes in Latvian" an include those topics there (if someone could find something about other changes). And, please, stop pointing to my language - I simply am bad at writing (even in my native langugage) and fact that English is slightly diferent from Latvian isn't helpfull. -- Xil/talk 20:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, the language is bad, and it's unclear what the point of the section is. 惑乱 分からん 14:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
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Gimalajiešu lāčiDelate that nonsence.
[edit] Phonology
This page describes Latvian phonology and gives sound exemples for popular phrases http://www.ailab.lv/ai1/fon/fonetika.htm since I have no idea how to writte IPA someone else could gether information there (for those who don't speak Latvian - this image ilustrates all phonemes). BTW template says there is no official regulation, but Law of State language states that 22.pants. (1) Speciālajā mācību literatūrā, tehniskajā un lietvedības dokumentācijā lietojama vienota terminoloģija. Terminu veidošanu un lietošanu nosaka Latvijas Zinātņu akadēmijas Terminoloģijas komisija (turpmāk - Terminoloģijas komisija). Jauni termini un to definīciju standarti lietojami oficiālajā saziņā tikai pēc apstiprināšanas Terminoloģijas komisijā un publicēšanas laikrakstā "Latvijas Vēstnesis". (2) Terminoloģijas komisijas nolikumu apstiprina Ministru kabinets. 23.pants. (1) Oficiālajā saziņā latviešu valoda lietojama, ievērojot spēkā esošās literārās valodas normas. (2) Latviešu literārās valodas normas kodificē Valsts valodas centra Latviešu valodas ekspertu komisija. (3) Latviešu valodas ekspertu komisijas nolikumu un latviešu literārās valodas normas apstiprina Ministru kabinets. (exuse me for not translating that and have fun interpreting which can be called regulator)- Xil/talk
Regarding phonology and orthography, the article says: "Four letters are modified versions of G, K, L and N. The modified letters are called mīkstais letters, and represent palatalisation of the unmodified sounds." I think some mention ought to be made of the fact that ģ and ķ are not modifications of the g and k sound, but rather of the d and t sound, right? I don't know IPA very well; are the IPA symbols consistent with my understanding?--Zilonis 03:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- pilnīgs bullshits.no mention ought to be made at least in the article you quoted.IN LATVIAN (and the article refers to the modification principles OF LATVIAN) the Ģ and Ķ are palatalized (or some other modification) G and K.could i make it any more obvious than this for example ģeoloģija which probably derives from German Geologie (i assume..i really don't feel like verifying this right now)which is pronounced (i assume) Gheh oh 'loggy..blah blah..so IN LATVIAN Ģ and Ķ is certainly a modification of G and K.well it's another kettle of fish if you talk about the actual pronunciation (especially from a point of another language)but that article is not about how other languages could perceive Ģ or Ķ.
- OK, as far as orthography is concerned, Ģ and Ķ are obviously modified g and k, but the section also discusses phonology (which in this context is effectively equivalent with pronunciation, in my opinion). Clearly, Ģ and Ķ have no english equivalent. To describe the sound of Ģ and Ķ in english, I have had much more success teaching english speakers correct pronunciation by describing it as palatized d and t. I suppose various ways to describe Ģ is to say that it is between d and g, or a palatized d, or an advanced g. Similarly for Ķ. Pujāte and Sosāre describe Ģ as being like "dew" and Ķ as being like "tune." [4] But I think the original was confusing (which said only that Ģ is a palatized version of the unmodified sound). Zilonis 63.226.250.78 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the section "Pitch Accent" is talking about, but I know its not giving correct examples. "Loks" does mean arch or bow, but window is "logs." I'm guessing green onion is not "loks" either, but as Latvian is not my native language, I'm not sure what a good translation would be. Maybe someone with a better grasp of the topic could take a look into this.
- Although "logs" is spelled so, pronounciation is actually closer to "loks". Green onion and maybe some other similar vegetableas are "loki" (singular:"loks")(green onion particulary would be "sīpolloks"). -Yyy 09:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is appropriate for a discussion page but I just came up on my comment and actually I wanted to apologize, calling someone's (ie Zilonis's) point "pilnīgs bullshits" is just too rude even if it is erroneous.
[edit] Ģ and Ķ
Ģ Ģ and Ķ are palatized versions of D and T? I've always thought that they are palatalized versions of G and K.
- See my comment in phonology above, stating the reasons for my description as palatized d and t. Zilonis
- In some words ģ and ķ are palatalized versions of d and t. For example, kaķis, which stands for kat'is (Curonian katis/katē 'cat') and not kakis as in new Latgalian. Curonian doesn't have d'>dž>ž and t'>č>š changes, therefore dj and tj are sometimes in quick speech pronounced as Latvian ģ and ķ, for example, katis [katis] 'cat', but katja [kacja] 'of cat'.
Ģ and Ķ stands for dj and tj also in many loanwords like ķurķis rus. 't'ur'ma', soģis rus. 'sud'ja', ķieģelis, ger. 'tēgel' etc. In theese cases it would be more correct to write kaţis, soḍis, ţieģelis, but because of introducing two characters for representing one phoneme would not be reasonable, changes g'>ģ and k'>ķ, as also d'>ḍ and t'>ţ are represented only with characters ķ and ģ. Roberts7 12:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gender
I assume that Latvian uses the more usual masculine/feminine system rather than something more exotic like common/neuter—this should be in the article. — Hippietrail 07:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] History
I'm curious about the "oldest known examples of written Latvian are from a 1530 translation of a number of hymns made by Nicholas Ramm, a German pastor in Riga" reference—I thought the earliest example was the Lord's Prayer from the Cosmologia Universalis. I'll have to dig up my references at home... —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- And there are earlier examples of Latvian written in runic form (as opposed to the transliterated to Germanic form), for example, engraving on Latvian zither (kokle), so we need to be clear about exactly what the earliest instance is—in this case the more accurate description (whether it's the hymns or the Lord's Prayer) would be the "earliest example of Latvian in printed form" (book). —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I changed "number of hymns" from 1530 to "a hymn" because this apparently refers to one hymn by Ramm that is published in a Latvian psalmbook of 1615. In that psalmbook it is actually written that Ramm made that in the year 1530. It is of course possible that Ramm translated several hymns in that year, but apparently they have not survived or at least it is difficult to date them. Furthermore it is somewhat dubious whether the extant, printed text is exactly same as the original translation since it is 85 years younger. Therefore, I think it would be better solution to say that Lord's prayer in the 1550 version Cosmographia is the oldest text in Latvian. I think that existence of ancient runic texts in Latvian is not generally accepted by the scientific community. 213.216.208.231 10:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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- The Cosmologia Universalis editions ranged from...
- in German between 1544 and 1628;
- in Latin between 1550 and 1559;
- in Italian in 1558; and
- in French in 1575,
- so I'll have to check if it appeared in the very first German edition or not (and/or double check other sources). —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Cosmologia Universalis editions ranged from...
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- I think that it appears first time in the Latin edition of 1550 (BTW, I still think that the book is called "Cosmographia universalis"). It is interesting that, as far as I remember, the title of Latvian Oratio Dominica says that it is in "lingua livonica", i.e. in Livonian language although it is in pure Latvian. There is also an old version of Lord's prayer that is written in the first part of 16th century that is in some Baltic language, but it is debatable whether it is in Old Prussian, in Latvian or in somekind of mixed language.213.216.208.231 10:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Orthography
...And while I'm at it, I'll dig out one of our old family bibles and put in the correct equivalent for the old (Germanic) orthography, as what's there now is the Lord's prayer in transliterated Germanic form from the early 16th century. It's still fine as a transcription of the original (partial viewable here). —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kursenieki: Is their language Latvian dialect ?
That article states that they spoke Latvian, article Curonian language says it has evolvoved from Curonian language, sientifical writings, that I could find - one states that it's kind of creole or the other - that given that it was deaply impacted by other languages and politicaly seperated from other Latvians it is a Language (such argumentation would make any dialect, especialy Latgalian, a language), finaly the popular view among Latvians is that it's a different Language (thought - most Latvians consider nationality and native language to be same thing and Kursenieki are different nation) and when speaking about Latvian language it is usually overlooked. -- Xil/talk 15:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I am going to rewrite this
I feel that this article is unclear and uninformative, especialy for forgeiners, and thereby needs to be rewriten, I think I'll have time for that next week. My plan roughly is to:
- Classification: incorporate information of balto-slavic here and try to explain why Latvian linguists don't include this in classification of the language
- Dialects: make a map, include kursenieki language, reffer to dialects in Latvian to avoid confusion with languages
- Grammar: expand
- Orthography: divide in three or more subsections - standart ortography, historical variations, Latvian and computers
- Phonology: expand, maybe explain Latvian traditional phonetical transcription
- History: merge these sections in history section: Problems in modern Latvian (Gimalajiešu lāči and Linguistic purism) and Language and politics. Divide in subsections - prehistory, 13th century - 18th century, 19th century - early 20th century, interwar period, soviet period, moder development
If you have objections, suggestions or questions about something in this plan please say that here -- Xil/talk 17:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
