Talk:Languages of Iran

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[edit] Iranian Languages redirect to Languages of Iran

I'm removing the redirect from 'Iranian Languages' to 'Languages of Iran'. There's a big difference between the two, and they should be separate articles. Iranian languages is a specific language group, like Germanic languages (eg. Icelandic). Languages of Iran is the languages found in the country of Iran, like the languages of Germany (eg. Upper Sorbian). This article is about the languages of Iran (eg. Azeri), not Iranian languages (eg. Pashto). --jonsafari 03:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


Important note: Discrepancy in figures!

  • Total sum: 72,423,703
  • Population: 67,503,205
  • Discrepancy: 4,920,498 The sum of the figures is almost 5 million more than the population despite the fact that many languages are still unknown! What a mess! What a research! Kiumars


Important note: Khoikhoi

  • Total sum: 72,423,703[citation needed] Answer: Just take a calculator and add them up yourself!
  • Population: 67,503,205[citation needed] Answer: See the first line of *Ethnologue report for languages of Iran that these figures came from; it says Islamic Republic of Iran, Jomhouri-e-Eslami-e-Irân. 67,503,205.
  • Discrepancy: 4,920,498[citation needed] The sum of the above figures is almost 5 million more than the population despite the fact that many languages are still unknown.[citation needed] Answer: Just subtract the two above figurs! All it needs is a calculator!Kiumars

Ok guys I have been told that we cannot take a calculator and add up the figures on this article because that is counted as Original research! Well, I just don’t know what to say! I need time to digest all these! Kiumars

The thing is Kiumars, Wikipedia is supposed to be based on reliable sources. You and I unfortunately do not meet that criteria. We have to find sources that are verifiable. Khoikhoi 08:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Khoikhoi 08:16, 3 February 2007; I think you are pulling my leg. We all can use a calculator to add up a few figures based on simple arithmetic (i.e. addition and subtraction!). Do we need reliable sources to confirm this kind of mistakes and discrepancies for us? I am simply checking the figures and proving their inconsistency and inaccuracy. It will be too silly if I have to find someone else to confirm a simple arithmetic mistake, don’t you think so? If Wiki is like that then I am wasting my time here. Kiumars
Yes, pointing out the discrepancy, something that you apparently thought of on your own, is indeed original research. If there are any other publications that note this, then please provide them. Khoikhoi 08:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Adding new unsourced information to an article is WP:OR. Pointing out an internal logical consistency is not. However, the interpretation of the figure as an internal logical inconsistency is original research, and unjustified given that many people speak multiple languages. Stephen B Streater 09:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Stephen B Streater 09:41, 3 February 2007; Farsi is the official language of Iran and everybody speaks the language either as mother tongue or as the second language; as education is in Farsi and so are almost all (I dare to mention a figure but I think saying over 95% is very safe) books and News Papers and other publications and Radio and TV are in Farsi. So if we take your point that some people speak more than one language (which I agree with) then the number of the people who speak Farsi as their first or second language must be close to 67 million in the report. The list does not simply add up no matter how one tries to read it. Kiumars

According to Persian language there are 71m Persian speakers in Iran, so I think your population figures may be out of date. If people speak an average of two languages, this allows for 140m total. The current total is much less than this. What is the exact problem that you have with the figures? Stephen B Streater 14:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok guys, how about changing it with : It is worth noting that adding up the figures given by Ethnologue (see the list above) does not correspond with the figure that Ethnologue reports for the Iran’s population and there is a significant discrepancy between these two figures which is not explained by Ethnologue article. Kiumars

I can't see your explanation of why you think the figures should add up to the same value. Stephen B Streater 14:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephen B Streater 14:15, 3 February 2007; I think you only read part of the sentence! It actually says “ According to CIA World Factbook, based on old data, there are 71 million native speakers of Persian in Iran [1], Afghanistan [2], Tajikistan [3] and Uzbekistan [4] and …” i.e. in several countries (not only Iran!). Iran’s population according to Ethnologue itself was (See the first line of Ethnologue report for languages of Iran that these figures came from; it says 67,503,205.) at the time (and that corresponds with Iranian center of statistics and UN and World Bank and CIA).
So, as for your question asking what the problem is; firstly I am arguing on the opposite side to what you think! I am saying that if Ethnologue report is based on the total number of people who spoke a language then the total number of people who speak Farsi in Iran must be much higher (probably very close to the total population of Iran), am I expressing myself? Am I getting thru?
Stephen B Streater 14:32, 3 February 2007; Ok, let’s be more specific. We have two ways of looking at the figures; one way is to say that the figures show the number of people whose mother tongue is xx and the second way which says all people who speak a language (as first or second language). The first case also corresponds to ethnic composition and must give a total equal to the population. The second case is far more complicated because in Iran most people speak at least 2 (and some 3 or 4) languages. I personally speak Farsi, Kurdish and some Azeri; in addition to a bit of English, French; German and Spanish but I would not put these on my resume!). So if we look at the number of people who speak different native languages in Iran it must be well over 200 millions! But the discrepancies of Ethnologue are only 5 million (indicating that they are talking about those whose mother tongues are a specific language). Is it clear now? Kiumars
Yes - I understand now. Your English is very good. The figure of 22,000,000 looks low to me given that it is the official language. The next step is to find other sources of information to cross check. Do you know where we might find these? Does the Iranian government publish this sort of information on their website? Stephen B Streater 15:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephen B Streater; Iranian Government does not believe in language or color or race or nationality or manmade borders; according to Islam we are all the same (and I do not disagree with that and I believe that people have more in common to link them than separate them); but for the sake of argument on this article we must stick to logic and reasoning more than relying on official data (and that seems to be a hard work here!).The only thing we have is provisional statistics (which can be a bit confusing because Iran is a very mixed country and people have mixed and migrated a lot) but it still can be an indicative factor. I recommend you take a look at the Talk:Azerbaijani people and read my posts and alidoostzadeh’s posts on that article; also read the archives especially Archive 4. (PS: I bet you didn’t expect it to be such a hard work! But I appreciate your efforts). Kiumars

Khoikhoi; It may be a silly question but how do you add items to the References on the article page? Kiumars

See Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to cite sources. Khoikhoi 19:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Khoikhoi; the numbers of people who speak certain languages are still “unknown” according to this list.[citation needed]. It is what the list says itself! so the list/source is the citation itself! Kiumars

[edit] Sources

There seem to be a number of sources for ethnicity in Iran, each giving different figures. There are apparently very few sources for languages spoken. I suggest people who have been following this debate list the sources here in the talk page for both language and ethnicity. Given the few sources available on language (perhaps only one), it would be helpful for the article to list this, but also the information on ethnicity, which has more sources. If no reliable sources can be found, then we can't really dedicate an article to this, but if information relating to this is available, we can write an article about something. Stephen B Streater 19:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

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