Talk:Land of Israel

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[edit] Question

Is Eretz Yisrael really modern Israel + West Bank + Gaza Strip? It's a strange coincidence if a term that has been used for more than 2000 years so exactly match up to what some modern people consider "the land of Israel" when the borders have changed so many times. :) BL 03:13, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)

"Eretz Yisrael" is somewhat like "Palestine" - it meant (slightly) different things to different people at different times. In its most widespread modern usage (more or less since the 1920s, when the borders of the British Mandate of Palestine were formed), the term corresponds to what used to be Mandatory Palestine, and now is Israel + WB + GS. No strange coincidences here. uriber 12:55, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nile

The Great River of Egypt is undisputedly the Nile. There was a 19th century dispute based on ignorance amongst Christian Biblical commentators over whether the "brook of Egypt" is the Nile. This results from the mistaken translation of Hebrew nachal as "brook" implying a small stream. While in later Hebrew nachal tended to be used for wadis or streams, in Biblical Hebrew it could also mean river and even the Euphrates is called a nachal. Jewish tradition was always that it was the Nile. One commentator specifically identified it with the easternmost branch of the Nile delta. There is also enough evidence from its usage that it refers to the Nile, e.g. it is equated with the Shichor which is equated with and is in fact a Hebrew translation of Egyption Yaor (dark/muddy river) which is undisputedly the Nile. Moreover the name Nile, is ultimately derived via Greek Neilos from Semitic nachal so the expression Nachal Mitzraim is probably best translated as "Nile of Egypt". Kuratowski's Ghost 10:28, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Land of Israel = Promised Land?

I have no problem with the definition in the first paragraph: "The Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל Eretz Yisrael) refers to the land making up the ancient Jewish Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The term has been used by Jews and Christians throughout history." But most of the article is devoted to the religious belief in a "Promised Land" covering a much larger area. The "land making up the ancient Jewish Kingdoms of Israel and Judah" is not the same as the "Promised Land" extending from the Nile to the Euphrates. So I want to move the latter to its own article "Promised Land (Biblical)". 24.64.166.191 05:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Everything that was promised to the Jews by God in the Torah is called the Promised Land, which is the land of Israel. Guy Montag 06:38, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Passages

These don't look like any standard translations I have ever seen: "from this desert and Lebanon"???? Kuratowski's Ghost 1 July 2005 00:24 (UTC)

[edit] Anon comments 1

Obviously some people have a difficulty with reading or will use any argument to justify their views. the issue in dispute is in the highlighted paragraph below. Exclusion of a view with which you disgaree is just as much a breach of the NPOV rules as stuffing your article with propaganda...

Except the criticism below is nonsense. There is a difference between explaining how the term is used - which happens to relate to Jewish and Christian religious belief - and stating that the belief cannot be challenged. The article makes no claim that one must accept either Jewish or Christian belief it merely presents the information about the belief. Similarly if an article states that Sif was the wife of Odin and presents a quote from the Eddas as evidence this would not mean that the writer expects you to start worshipping Odin. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't get your point. This is not a dispute about mythology but about the use of the term "Land of Israel" in modern Israel - about who uses it and why. You refuse to even let that discussion be referenced. Then you refuse to allow anyone to know about your censorship. You are abusing the encyclopedia.

You are asserting that only members of one particular political ideology uses the term in Israel today when this is not the case, anyone discussing the area defined in the article uses the term regardless of their political beliefs. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
To carry on the analogy, I might also add that if one were to edit an article about Sif the wife of Odin and state that the name Sif is only used by a group of extremist neo-pagans in modern times, it would be reverted because anyone discussing the subject of Norse mythology uses the name not only a small group of neo-pagans. Ok not a perfect analogy but you get my point :P Kuratowski's Ghost 22:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

This page is being maliciously edited by people determined to present only one view of what the meaning of "Land of Israel" - namely those who regard the definition of it as a Biblical gift to the Jewish people as a fact that cannot be challenged. Repeated attempts to place the use of this term in a contemporary political context - particularly important given the events of the last week or so - are being stopped by those who clearly are adopting a pov postition incompatible with producing an encyclopedia. it's a disgrace and it has to stop.

No this page is being maliciously edited by people who insist on falsely potraying the name as something only used by rightwing extremists when it is a term that Jews and Christians of all political persuasions typically use for the region defined by the Biblical passages listed in the article. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:36, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that I dont understand any of this.. I really have no opinion as i am not of any religious faith, however I would like to say that this hole site has not been much help at all, and the people on this "comments" page are not really adding any thing of value, any real information, or opinions that would make a difference.

[edit] Anon comments 2

The issue here - for me at least - is the need for this article, if it is to be full, to include a reference to the fact that the zionist right (eg Netanyahu) are seeking to make the issue of the "land" of Israel central to Israeli politics. Those zionists who are committed to an Israeli state in the "land of Israel" are in conflict with those Israelis who - such as Sharon - support the withdrawal from Gaza and those zionists on the left who support a Palestinian state in some or all of the West Bank. I cannot see it as anything other than a failure to live up to the values of Wikipedia if this use of the term "land of Israel" is not even allowed to be discussed. I am happy to enter into dialogue with those who disagree with my interpretation of the debate within Israel but i refuse to accept that we are not even allowed to discuss it - especially when a dispute about the "land of Israel" has now split the ruling party in Israel. That sort of censorship just isn't on.

Do you have any encyclopedic references indicating that this is relevant and significant? Jayjg (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
How about the fact that the phrase appears in the published political platform of the Likud Party?Brian Tvedt 03:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Can you elaborate? Jayjg (talk) 03:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
For example, in the Peace & Security chapter we read
Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel.
Clearly the use of the term is not just a reference to the Bible, or the British Mandate boundaries. It carries with it an implicit assertion that the entire region belongs to the Jewish people and not to its current residents (in the case of the West Bank and Gaza). Brian Tvedt 02:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This is not a different usage to the Biblical. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you deny that there are political implications in the use of the term? Brian Tvedt 11:12, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The term itself has no political implications. The Likud and other parties may have a political stance on the Land of Israel, this does not give the term political implications any more than a policy on water consumption makes "water" a term with a special political meaning. Kuratowski's Ghost 13:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Brian, who (aside from you and the anon) assert that this usage is a special political meaning of the term? Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The usage by the Likud or Netanyahu (hardly what I would call rightwing, but whatever) is not a different usage to that already described in the article, they distinguish between the Biblical Land of Israel and the state of Israel and this usage is not unique to them. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why this article is not NPOV

The article pretends that Eretz Israel is a simple geographical denotation with no political implications. In fact everyone knows that nearly half of the people who actually live in the region in question would angrily deny that they live in the "Land of Israel". The use of the term in a modern context is every bit as politically charged as using "Palestine" to refer the same region is. Just as many Jews read in use of the term "Palestine" an implicit threat to drive them into the sea, so do many Palestinians read in the term "Eretz Israel" a threat of ethnic cleansing. Indeed there are some fanatics who use it in just this way, as this example shows:

Eretz Israel means "the Land of Israel." Meaning the land of the people called Israel. Precisely as Moab was the land of the people of Moab and Edom that of the Edomites. The concept, the logical concept of a land, is that it serves as the home and the receptacle for a people to lead their own unique and distinctive life style. It is not the geographical area that defines the person, it is the person who controls the land. No non-Edomite was ever a citizen on Edom just as no non-Philistine was a citizen of Philistia or had any say in its national concerns or character. So, too, with Israel - the Jewish people. The Land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel. It is they who control it, define it. It is their vessel, their territory in which to create the society of Israel, the Torah society of G-d. Only Israel, only the Jew, has a proprietary interest in it.

Note that Kahane is not just expressing here an opinion about the Land of Israel. He is explicitly saying that the term carries in itself support for his program.

Even in the narrow terms of usage within mainstream Zionism, the anon is completely correct: Eretz Israel is used nowadays mainly by the Right. The term is much less used by the peace movement, and when it is it is mostly as a rejoinder to the Right. Consider this editorial that recently appeared in Haaretz:

However, the ethos of Eretz Israel that the followers of the Greater Land of Israel and the Jewish residents of the territories have appropriated for themselves is not their exclusive property. It is the ideological source of the Labor movement as well as of other sectors of Israeli society. The difference between them is that the latter, sooner or later, realized that the rebirth of Israel can be carried out only within the framework of a Jewish state, and that that state can be realized only in part of Eretz Israel. In the case under discussion here, 80 percent of it is involved.

Note that it is understood here that the term Eretz Israel has heavy connotations—it has an "ethos" associated with it. Although the Medinat Israel/Eretz Israel distinction is acknowledged, it is in the context of understanding a concept historically important in Zionism. In the here and now, the settlers are described as living in "the territories", not Eretz Israel. Brian Tvedt 03:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The quote from Haaretz shows that it is indeed not an exclusively rightwing term btw so I still don't know what you are getting at. Its your perception that it is rightwing, find a published analysis that says that the term is rightwing and we will accept it, otherwise it sounds like your original research. If you want to point out that the rightwing emphasize the standard Jewish teaching that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews then that is fine, it doesn't make the term inherently rightwing or mean that it has some different meaning now than what is has meant before. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  1. If the article was solely about traditional Jewish religious teachings, there would be no POV issue.
  2. However, the article is not solely about tradional Jewish teachings,. It describes the use of the term Land of Israel to refer not to any exact region described in the Bible, but to the exact region defined by the British Mandatory boundaries, a peculiar, 20th century usage.
  3. This peculiar, 20th century usage definitely has political implications. The Haaretz editorial confirms this: the term has an "ethos" associated with it, it is an "ideological source". One can argue whether the political implications are the same for Labor Zionists as for the modern day Greater Israel Zionists. What is untenable is the position that the word has no political implications.
  4. As to the narrow question, whether the word is now associated specifically with right-wing Zionism: The Haaretz editorial asserts that the term has been "appropriated" by the settlement movement. I have produced a quotation from an indisputably right-wing figure, Kahane, in which usage of the term is crucial. I doubt you can provide a single quotation from any modern left-Zionist group (such as Peace Now) that uses without irony the term Land of Israel in the sense described in this WP article.
  5. As to the broader question, whether people "of all political persuasions" use the term in the sense described in this article, obviously that is not true. The Palestinians, for example, do not call the region the Land of Israel. They call it Palestine. That at least ought to be mentioned.
Brian Tvedt 01:44, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] merge

There is a discussion at Palestine (region) about merging "Land of Israel" with "Palestine region" as they both share a lot of content. I think redirecting "Land of Israel" to another merged article would be unacceptable to many people, but that that doesn't neccesarily have to happen. It could redirect to the Israel (disambiguation) page and this article's content could also be distributed to other articles such as Kingdom of Israel and Israel - Or not. --Yodakii 09:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"Land of Israel" is a concept with a long and varied history in Jewish thought and Christian thought as well. The concept goes well beyond the issue of borders and geography. (Which unfortunately seems to have become a major focus of this article, but changing that has nothing to do with a merge or a redirect. More will be added with time in the wiki way, including "Land of Israel" as opposed Babylon and diaspora, and "Land of Israel" in mediaval and modern Jewish thought.)
So no way to a merge. The historical concepts of "Land of Israel" and "Palestine" obviously overlap geographically, but only out of ignorance could someone identify the concepts and try to merge the articles.Dovi 10:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree. In addition "Palestine" has been used at different times in history for significantly different shaped regions within the Land of Israel but never for the entire region defined by the Biblical passages cited in the article. And lets face it, the idea of merging with Palestine is yet another lame attempt to suppress mention of the word "Israel" while promoting the term "Palestine" offensive to many Jews. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I strongly agree and have said so there. As Dovi says, LoI has religious aspects which are not sufficiently weighted here imho too. KG, you should look at the discussion there, that is not the motivation or history. I don't think Palestine being strictly within LoI is entirely accurate even. (The southern Negev, probably/perhaps no, no?) I've tried to be neutral, objective and practical in my comments there. For instance Humus is OK with merging, but insists the merged article to be LoI, which would be offensive to many others. There is now a copied section from this article there, which in my opinion does not belong there, although the attached map, probably replaced with a better focused one is appropriate enough. I would welcome your and Dovi's input there.John Z 12:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eretz Yisrael/Erets Yisrael

Erets Yisrael is a better transliteration then Eretz Yisrael, i think it should be the transliteration of ארץ ישראל. Toya 05:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, Eretz is much more widely accepted. Google test is not perfect, but it shows under 1,000 for Erets and iver 260,000 for Eretz. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 05:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
But Erets is more correct. T and S create a צ, but T and Z not. Toya 06:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
To an English speaker a t followed by an s looks like two separate sounds especially at the end of a word (because it looks similar to English plurals like cats, hats, boats, while tz as in the English word waltz (borrowed from German) is recognized as a single sound. (Although for some reason when writing Japanese words like tsunami, ts seems to be more popular.) Kuratowski's Ghost 16:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Also listen to the way English speakers pronounce the word cats and the surname Katz for example - tz in the surname Katz is always a single sound while ts in cats when spoken slowly and carefully is a separate t sound followed by a separate s sound. Kuratowski's Ghost 16:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Why is there a map at the top of the State of Israel today? How is that relevant to the topic of this article? I think the map at the top ought to be the one of the traditional boundaries of Eretz Israel. Later, in the section on The Land of Israel and the State of Israel, we can have a map of the British Mandate. john k 16:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Topic sentence(s) for this article

I think this article would greatly benefit from a more precise definition of what it is about and (accusations notwithstanding) believe that some progress was being made in the discussions above titled "Why this article is not NPOV" and "merge"

Perhaps some of the chief contributors could comment on the following:

This article concerns the "Land of Israel" in Jewish [and Christian] thought from its Biblical sources to the present day. The history of the area that is now the State of Israel and the occupied territories is treated in [Reference to other articles].


This definition, or one like it, does not unduly restrict the scope of the article (for example, it would be perfectly appropriate to discuss biblical or post-biblical ideas about the geographical boundaries in this context).

I'm not sure if there are modern aspects to this subject that are not subsumed within Zionism, but that question doesn't have to be answered for a helpful definition of the article.

Perhaps the article should be further restricted to Jewish thought only, since there is very little in here about Christianity now and that is actually a significant topic in its own right (one would want, for example to examine the sigificance of this concept during the crusades and to modern Evangelical christians in the United States.)

In light of the potential controversy about anything having to do with this topic, I'm reluctant to follow wikipedia's dicate to "be bold" and would prefer to reach some sort of consensus here first. --Sjsilverman 16:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds ok, be bold. Im gonna be bold and remove the State of Israel sidebar. Kuratowski's Ghost 17:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I like it for a topic sentence (made one slight adjustment). I also don't think the State of Israel template needs to be here. The only connection between the two needs to be how the traditional idea played out in modern Zionism (there is already something on that in this article anyways).Dovi 18:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] River of Egypt

Dear KG, the "River of Egypt" is most definitely not "unanimously" understood as the Nile, so please don't pretend that it is. AnonMoos 01:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The term Nahar Mitzrayim used in Genesis 15:18 _is_ unanimously understood to be the Nile, there is some debate still over Nachal Mitzrayim used in other passages. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Dude, I'm fully aware of the fact that you think that the Nile is the One True Interpretation, and that other views don't even deserve a hearing (hence your inappropriate use of the word "unanimous" to describe something which is far from unanimous) -- but unfortunately for your position, many people disagree, including a number of somewhat recently and somewhat scholarly sources (as I detailed on the Talk:Brook of Egypt page, where you chose to high-handedly dismiss them).
However, Wikipedia is not set up to give you a forum to exclude all views opposing what you consider to be the One True Interpretation, and it's not particularly appropriate to unilaterally impose one interpretation when many respectable sources disagree (however wrong you may think that they are). Furthermore, your current edit is even more unfortunate when it mentions Iraq -- I would greatly appreciate it if you would give a citation of one single scriptural passage which more or less unambiguously includes part of Iraq (and just citing the single word Prat won't do the job). AnonMoos 19:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Well it does do the job if you look at a map of where the Euphrates is. There was in fact a map included in a earlier version of the article that clearly showed this. Kuratowski's Ghost 19:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
There's no need to superciliously condescend about the geographical location of the Euphrates. I'm perfectly aware of its location -- and also quite aware that the Upper Euphrates in northern Syria is quite different from the Lower Euphrates in Iraq. Unless you have some specific citation of some Biblical verse (other than the general vague occurrence of the word "Prat") to support your claims, then I would kindly appreciate it if you were to keep Iraq the hell off this article page. Unless the "Bead Artzeinu" map cites a specific Biblical passage (other than the general vague occurrence of the word "Prat") then its map represents purely extremist fringe political rantings, which has nothing in particular to do with the Bible, and so doesn't belong on this page. AnonMoos 01:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
"Vague occurrence of Prat"?? Whats vague about it? Its there. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it's there. So what? A reference to "the Euphrates" doesn't immediately translate itself into coordinates of longitude and latitude of boundary lines on a map -- unless you know what part of the Euphrates is referred to, and what role it plays in determining the boundary. That's where interpretation of the occurrences of the word Prat comes in. There's no simple "Prat"="Iraq" equivalence, because the Euphrates also flows through Turkey and Syria. 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
It means the Euphrates, the whole Euphrates not some segment of the Euphrates as you seem to be implying. If it meant up to some point on the Euphrates then that point would be mentioned. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but that's simply outright nonsense. Canada could still have its motto "From sea to Sea" (A Mari Usque Ad Mare) even if the only two Canadian coastal cities were Vancouver and Halifax. According to your line argument, Canada isn't entitled to its motto unless it owns ALL of both the ocean coasts, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, and from Tierra del Fuego to Greenland!!!
Furthermore, a highly relevant historical fact which colors the interpretation of Genesis 15:18 is that the Bible records that Solomon had a trading outpost at Tiphsah on the UPPER Euphrates in northern Syria, but the Bible says absolutely nothing about any Israelite sovereignty or quasi-sovereignty of even the most tenuous kind in the area of modern Iraq (whether on the LOWER Euphrates or elsewhere), or anywhere even very near the area of modern Iraq. AnonMoos 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Reality check: a text refers to "river of Egypt", this is (a) the Nile, the river that Egypt is most famous for and the only significant river in Egypt? or (b) an insignficant wadi lying in a desert miles to the east of what was called Egypt in ancient times? Lets get real people. Yes there was confusion over the past few centuries about the geography of the Exodus because the ancient easternmost arm of the Nile delta had dried up, but lets not be silly and suggest that reinterpretations based on this confusion are what was meant in the ancient text. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Dude, the Wadi el-Arish may be insignificant from your point of view, as you view large-area maps in your atlas with majestic detachment from the comfort of your armchair, but from the point of view of the ancient Israelites, it was a lot closer to where they were living than the Nile was. AnonMoos 19:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't change the fact that Genesis 15:18 says Nahar which does not apply to wadis. Nor the fact that before anyone ever came up with a claim that the border was wadi el arish that Nachal Mitzrayim was always translated Nilus in Aramaic, nor does it change the fact that long before KJV and its "brook" translation, Rashi noted in his commentary on the word Shihor in Joshua: "From the Shihor: that is the Nile the same as Nachal Mizraim." Kuratowski's Ghost 19:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
That's nice -- that's your interpretation. Many other people (including scholars in the field) have different interpretations, and the purpose of Wikipedia is not to give you a personal playground to suppress beliefs which you happen to disagree with. AnonMoos 01:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jordan

The circuit of Canaan in Numbers 34 doesn't include the territory of the modern state of Jordan at all, which is presumably why Jordan was left off of earlier versions of the list in that section. Please try to remember that the purpose of this page is reporting on accepted Biblical interpretation, not collecting a series of extremist ultra-right Zionist irredentist fantasy maps. (Funny how the extremist ultra-right Zionist irredentist fantasy maps seem to coincide with Arab propaganda claims!) AnonMoos 01:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You are forgetting the territory east of the Jordan. Half of Manasseh, Gad and Reuben lived east of the Jordan [...] Kuratowski's Ghost 01:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No, I'm not forgetting that -- I drew every single Bezier curve bounding the pink area in image Image:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea.png by hand, and agonized to some degree over almost every little indentation or protuberance.
What I am doing is calling attention to the fact that there seems to be an unfortunate creeping tendency in the evolution of this article to increasingly define the land of Israel syncretistically, combining the most expansive features of several different definitions given in the Bible, even though these different definitions actually are conflicting in many cases. You take some parts from the circuit of Canaan in Numbers 34 (even though this doesn't include any territory east of the Jordan river), stitch it together with other parts from the descriptions of the territories allocated to the twelve tribes (even though those territories don't go anywhere near the Euphrates), etc. etc., and try to cover up any remaining geographic gaps with a vague hand-waving appeal to Genesis 15:18, and then screw in the neck-bolts, tell your assistant Igor to turn on the electricity, and scream "IT'S ALIVE!".
If this article is to have any integrity, then it should stick more or less closely to one Biblical definition, or should present clearly the conflicts between the different Biblical definitions. What it should NOT do is eclectically and quasi-arbitrarily pick and choose different bits from different Biblical definitions, and then present the result as supposedly being THE Land of Israel. AnonMoos 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[...] and if you accept Genesis 15:18 as a defining passage it goes all the way to the Euphrates, that certainly includes Jordan and parts of Iraq.
Does it?? The circuit of Canaan as defined in Numbers 34 goes a long way into Syria without including any territory in modern Jordan, while the empire of Solomon included a trading outpost at Tiphsah on the upper Euphrates in northern Syia without remotely approaching near the territory of modern Iraq. 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Aaah ok I see where you are coming from. The way I see it, well not me alone, this is basically the way it was taught to me, is that the borders are indeed stitched together from all the vague references. Numbers 34, deals explicitly with the division of land amongst the 9 1/2 tribes and ends off with only a very vague definition of the land on the east of the Jordan. You understand Numbers 34 to be the main defining verse, while I and others see Genesis 15 as the main one. The area allocated to the tribes is indeed a smaller area than what one gets from Genesis 15 and the other verses. And as the article points out the land finally settled does not actually match the land allocated in Numbers. Ok all this needs to be clarified in the article. The Talmud has some terminology relating to this, borders of the patriarchs and borders for those coming out of Egypt. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
You are also ignoring the fact that irredentists base their irredentism on the Biblical passages, they dont make up maps based on nothing. Thats why their maps are relevant to the article regardless of their political beliefs. Kuratowski's Ghost 01:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
That's nice -- the irredentist maps could possibly go on this page if they were presented alongside a relevant political discussion which would place them in the proper context, and provided that they were not presented in such a manner as would confuse their interpretations with the mainstream scholarly consensus. Unfortunately, the manner in which you referenced the irredentist maps in the article accomplished neither of these two goals. I don't know that I'm excessively impressed by the way that you insist on applying alleged strict rigorous scholarship with reference to the identification of the "River/Brook of Egypt", and yet then turn around and devote space to arguments between ultra-rightist rabbis about how much territory the "Land of Israel" includes around the Shatt-al-Arab area (a debate that to my mind closely resembles the debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin).
Next I expect you to start repeating the Arab propaganda about how the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Euphrates and the Nile, and how there's a map of the Israeli Egypt-to-Iraq conquest plan on the wall of the Israeli Knesset! AnonMoos 02:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Well the Arab propaganda matches what the irredentists say because both are based on looking at the verses in the Bible! I'm picking up a vibe that you are very sensitive about what is said in the article because of how the statements relate to modern extremist politics. Unfortunately its only the extremists who ever seem to discuss the issue and draw maps, if you can find maps that are purely scholarly it would be most welcome. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't have enough of a bee in my bonnet about this to revert, someone who cares, please step in. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic/Arabic Name

Since the land of Israel is a religio-historic name, I think that if we are to include Arabic names, they should be from the Hadith and Koran. A simple google search of Koran and Land of Israel gives me this quote (of course I am not expert on this and it took me five seconds):

"And thereafter Allah said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

As far as I can tell, it uses Holy Land and Promised Land but no Filastin. Comments?

Guy Montag 22:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Palestine is not a term for this concept; it is a secular term for the region. Stating that Filastin is the Arabic translation of Eretz Israel is misleading. —Aiden 15:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Correct. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. Why is "Land of Israel" ok to be in the intro of Palestine but not vice versa?--Andrew c 03:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, Eretz Yisrael is a historical and Biblical name for the region based on Torah, while Palestine is a secular name given by the Romans. "Filastin" is not an accurate Arabic translation of this Biblical concept. —Aiden 19:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] going through the history

This edit, at least to me who doesn't know that much about the topic, seems to explain the concept in much clearer terms. I like how the geographic location is explained, and it seems much less vague and overly concise as the current intro. Why were these revisions deleted? Is there any way some of the helpful information can be restored, or is it inaccurate for some reason? (Kuratowski's Ghost (talk • contribs) did the revert citing rv to last version with factually accurate and neutral intro)--Andrew c 13:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly its not known as "Palestine" in English its known as the "Land of Israel", duh. Palestine in modern usage refers to the PA autonomous regions. It was not known as Canaan, as one will see when reading further Canaan referred to a particular area within the Land of Israel lying strictly west of the Jordan. Reading further the modern states listed in the intro also did not accurately reflect the entire region defined in the Bible. It also missed the most important aspect the religious nature of the concept. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning...?

Nowhere does the article state what the name Yisrael or Israel means. Would someone who knows kindly put it in.Angrynight 23:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I am kid in 5th grade wondering...........

i am a kid in 5th grade wondering when Joesph had a dream they were all bowing down to him, Jacob said. "You expect me and my wife and you're brothers to bow down to you?" who was his new wife? It can't be Leah of course, since she was with Esao. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.131.179.66 (talk) 10:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Leah was with Esau? I must have missed that episode :D Kuratowski's Ghost 14:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You've got all mixed up. Jacob had two wives - Leah and Rachel, and two concubines - Bilhah and Zilpah. There is a Midrash which says that Leah was supposed to marry Esau, who was an "rasha" (evil person), so she cried her eyes out, and that's the reason her eyes were dim. Of course, she married Jacob, although only through her father's cunning. Eliyyahu 15:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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