Talk:Land Rover

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[edit] Rhinos

Removed:

Rhinos are often associated with Land Rovers - specifically Rovers being charged by rhinos. This is mainly due to the popularity of Land Rovers in Africa. The reason rhinos charge Rovers is not because they're angry, but because they're trying to mate - the vehicle is about the right size, and rhinos have very small brains!

Is this really true or just a cute piece of marketing? --Robert Merkel

From what I understand, this is actually true. Changed to "it is said..." and copyedit and reinsterted. --User:Justfred

LOL There is no evidence that Land Rovers will get charged more than any other vehicle, what complete tripe. The likelyhood of getting charged has to do with the inclination and temperament of the Rhino at hand and how sensible the driver of the vehicle is and diddly squat to do with the marque of vehicle. For instance Black Rhinos are very much more aggressive and bad tempered than White Rhinos and require much more caution. I live in South Africa and travel very frequently thorought Southern Africa and have heard no special association of LR with Rhinos. Oh and Rhinos are rather rare in Africa especially black rhinos. Most are in Southern Africa.

The popularity of the Land Rover in Africa is a myth. True, you see a goodly few in Kenya but in most African countries the Land Rover is outsold by the Toyota Land Cruiser which is ubiquitous, especially in the more remote areas. Indeed in some countries, such as Botswana and Namibia Land Rover is practically a swear word! There are hugely more Toyota Dealers in Africa than LR dealers making parts and back up much easier. Go check the respective websites for LR and Toyota in Botswana, Namibia, Mosambique, Zambia and see what I mean.

Same thing in Australia, you only see Land Rovers in any numbers in town driven by urbanite yuppies. In the outback it's literally mainly Cruisers because Cruisers outsell all other marques, including LR.

None of the aid agencies use Land Rovers, UNHCR, UN Medicines Sans Frontiers its mainly Cruisers with the occassional Nissan Patrol.

>According to some estimates, 80% of all Land Rovers manufactured (since 1947) are still in use< I think this is a myth, an urban legend. I've heard this many times but I'd yet to see a reliable source?

>They are also used by military forces worldwide. < Not true, they are used by military forces in many countries that were part of the British sphere of influence, such as Botswana. However it is notable that in the UK armed forces the very expensive Pinzgauer is appearing increasingly in the roles formerly occupied by the Land Rover Defender.

BJS - 11th Sep, 2005: LR's are actually used quite extensively around the world, and are currently enjoying a renaissance of sorts. The author of this article obviously has a bent towards Toyotas. LR's last. That's why they're used. Many countries still under British inlfuence still use LR's. The negative tone of this article is simply without merit or justification.

This section: "Challenge of Japanese makes" does appear to be oddly biased towards the Toyota Land Cruiser and not entirely relevant to the article. One of the reasons you see these vehicles as opposed to Land Rovers is simply because they are cheaper. There are some tasks that the Land Rover Defender (because of the low-down torque) can undertake that other vehicles cannot. So people use them. I've often seen Land Cruisers being winched out of ruts by Land Rovers, but if I was writing a piece on The Toyota I would not not necessarily mention it.

"Many of the service problems can be traced to the obsolete power train of the Discovery and Defender models. Produced under license by Land Rover, the Discovery's and Defender's engine was designed in the late 1950s by General Motors for Buick. Buick stopped production of the engine in the early 1960s because of faulty head gaskets, which remains a major problem today."

I would like some source to support the above assertion that the current and recent V8, TD5 and TDI engines are derived from General motors or Buick power plants. By far and away most Discos and Defenders sold in the UK are diesels and I don’t think the previous TDI and current TD5 powerplant has any connection with GM whatsoever.

It therefore follows that this would make the quoted paragraph erroneous because hardly any of the problems with the LR marque in the UK in various Which/ JD Powers etc surveys (and one recent one from JD Powers in Germany I've just noticed not yet quoted in the Land Rover ‘hall of shame’ list) would relate to the ‘obsolete power train’ derived from a GM product.--Nick-in-South-Africa 17:05, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Please pardon my mistake, I was only referring to the petrol Land Rovers (diesel Land Rovers are not imported to North America). The petrol V8 engine is GM/Buick engineered [1], and is an absolute nightmare in terms of reliability (as a Land Rover service advisor, I observed that almost every engine needed at least some major work in the lifetime of the vehicle, as opposed to more reliable makes.) I am not downplaying other service issues such as the common air suspension faults or electrical/computer issues, these should probably become more satisfactory once Land Rover is more integrated with the Ford/Jaguar product line. --"DICK" CHENEY 19:09, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Dick interesting that you are a service advisor so you have a powerful anecdotal handle on the problems in LR, I will qualify your remarks for the US market. Also didn’t mention the problems with the Softroader Freelander which has the Td4 Diesel engine, this is essentially the same engine as in the BMW 3.2 which I don’t think you get in the US but is very popular in Europe, the UK and South Africa.
All that said Defenders and Discos from my anecdotal experience, are rife with QA and design quality issues, many not related to power plants. One example they pop half shafts under tough conditions all too easily. I’ve toned my comment way, way down and not mentioned a massive catalogue of anecdotes because I am well aware of the problems with anacdotal evidence. So I have only referred to published surveys to keep the entry very NPOV, however this list is still not complete. I do hope that Ford can pull the thing together, they have done pretty well with other niche players such Jag, Volvo and Aston Martin. However they have their work cut out - BMW execs according to Fortune magazine described the Rover Group as 'the English Patient'; a rare piece of Teutonic humour.
After going over my edit, I think it would be best if I did not edit this article further. Since my knowledge is very specific, and North America centric, I think obtaining the information from an Internet source rather than first hand experience would be more NPOV. However, since pictures aren't biased, I will take some for this article. --H CHENEY 02:50, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think you are too harsh on your self, if you know about Land Rovers and their history you should write stuff, for instance I dont know what deignation of the US petrol engines are. Oh one point your comment 'picutures arent biased' is definitely a subverted support fallacy, some of the most misleading propoganda is pictorial :). But Im most certainly not saying you shouldnt post photos, I think that,s a great idea --Nick-in-South-Africa 04:39, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Defender 147"

Please add reference to the Defender 147" as well

[edit] Birmabright?

The article says "their most distinctive feature has been their bodies, constructed of a lightweight proprietary alloy of aluminium and magnesium called Birmabright (being rustproof, this contributes to the vehicle's longevity)", but aren't they nowdays made of orinary steel? // Liftarn

I believe Series / Defender models have always been aluminum-bodied. I don't think all other models have been. Experts? —Morven 20:47, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

The Defender is still made with an aluminium body with external rivets. The Defender is no longer sold in the US, its still however available in the UK, Australia, South Africa and other territories. The Disco, Freelander and Range Rover are of a conventional pressed steel construction--Nick-in-South-Africa 05:53, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Could this be regional variation Nick?

Older Range Rovers (Pre-2002) and Disco 2's here (UK) seem to be aluminium skinned and a magnet, examination of accident damage or a typical internet search will confirm this. 'Some' - but not all - Range Rovers do appear to have steel bonnets and tailgates.

Range Rovers 2002 onwards are extensively boron steel (rather than conventional pressed steel) with doors, including frames, impact beams and skin, bonnet and front wings in aluminium. http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/L/landrover/rangerover02-/rangerover02--factfile-1.html

Typical internet reference for Early Range Rover - "Body panels are aluminium" http://www.lrm.co.uk/archive/Range%20Rover/buyingrangerover.html

This is what I have for the Disco 3 "The bonnet, a characteristic Land Rover clamshell design, is aluminium upper and lower tailgates are made from lightweight aluminium. All four doors are wide and provide easy access. Made of steel, they have boron steel-reinforced side intrusion beams to improve impact performance. Alloy structures, which are inherently corrosion resistant, are treated to prevent electrolytic interaction with adjoining steel components.

Significant use is made of high-strength steels, while enormously strong boron steel is used for the A- and B-pillars, for added strength in front and side impacts." http://www.carpages.co.uk/land_rover/land_rover_discovery_3_structure_25_06_04.asp

--Daedelus 10:54, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bodies

All 'Defenders' are and always have hade aluminium alloy bodies. Prior to the current all aluminium construction Range Rovers had a 14 guage steel chassis with an aluminium alloy bodies. The resulting corrosion resistance is part of the reason why after nearly sixty years over half the Land Rover ever built are still running. —Daedelus

Daedelus Please quote a reliable source for this 60% if all Defenders ever built are still running story. Ive heard it often, sometimes the percentage are different. Regardless, it looks suspiciously like a myth, Ive never seen one reference on this 'factoid' that is not itself a mere assertion. By reliable source I mean a proper sampling study in all key markets to back this up, not a mere assertion by LR Marketing or such like. Personally I think it a tad of a questionable claim to say the least as it rather contradicts the attrition rate I see in the Defender living in Africa. I will delete the reference to this in the article if this is not forthcoming. Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence and this is an extraordinary claim and an assertion does not a supporting case make --Nick-in-South-Africa 16:00, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nick-in-South-Africa. It's difficult to produce a NPOV on this without having the complete systematic registration records of every Land Rover produced. Even so many old Land Rovers are used off the public roads and therefore off the records and untaxed or uncertified. I've quoted and linked to some sources - which is generally the convention in scholarly work - and I'll add a disclaimer - but obviously the information that you say is mandatory would require in-depth document searchs of the government records of over a hundred countries and collation and inspection of approximately million separate vehicle records. At that level almost any comment on this Wiki (including the whole Land Rover article) could be considered a 'factoid' or mere assertion and therefore deleted.
Your POV comment on you local south african situation may reflect relative market condition (harsh conditions, poor quality mechanics, relative affluence allowing them to be replaced by cheap short lived, car-like far-eastern imports) - on the other hand I could walk out of my front door right now and find two or three, working thirty to forty year old Land Rovers where I live in a few minutes, and the only third-world government department that I have direct contact with still runs its Series 3s but this is direct experience rather than being linked to official figures.
bbbbbbObviously if we feature all articles that feature people who find that their my Land Rover isn't as easy to maintain as a Nissan Sunny (or the equivalent) and delete all those from people who have been using or running thirty or forty year old vehicles we are moving towards a particular POV.
If we are looking for a forensic POV then LR Marketing are legally bound in their claims by the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 .

--Daedelus 13:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Daedelus I duly note the POV charge and the implicit barb within the claim. Let me perhaps step back and put it in mild terms, but with a quiet insistence on credibility and objectivity fitting of an encyclopedia.
Daedelus wrote >It's difficult to produce a NPOV on this without having the complete systematic registration records of every Land Rover produced< Exactly my point, if one can't back up the claim with hard evidence such as sales records cross referenced with those still registered deriving a percentage then the claim is simply not worthy, it's simply an assertion. It begs the question 'How the hell was this claim derived, is it hard numbers or a thumb suck? If it's a thumb suck, who made it and on what basis and how was this extrapolated Globally? If it is a thumb suck its just an unsupported assertion, the claim then simply isn't credible or worthy of inclusion, or at least not without very clear caveats on this point to the extent that would make their inclusion in the article rather moot. This is very simple logic.
I am simply asking for sources that are not just assertions. If you can't provide source materiel supporting your claim that about 60% of all Defenders ever produced are still on the road, then the claim is simply hearsay and as such not fitting materiel for an encyclopedia. So please feel free to back the claim up by citing source materiel detailing exactly how this figure was derived and in each territory. As soon as you do this I am more than happy to gladly concede this point.
Daedelus wrote>LR Marketing are legally bound in their claims by the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 < The first point this is UK legislation, the 60% claim did not just relate to the UK. It was a Global claim. In the UK it should be possible to cross reference Land Rover sales with current DVLC records (annual vehicle road tax) and come up with a number. If this has been done and is properly cited I will concede the point, but on the UK only. Second point - to argue that a cliam is true because LR have not been prosecuted under the UK Trade Descriptions Act is at best rather thin. As far as I know Land Rover have not been taken to court aon their marketing catch phrase 'The Best 4x4 by far', The fact that LR have not been taken to court and lost over this does not make the claim in this phrase true or even provide a half decent argument that it is true, again an assertion does not an argument make --Nick-in-South-Africa 06:29, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kevin in Costa Rica> I'm not sure about the rest of the world but. Here in Central America. Especially Costa Rica. The Land Rover is the best thing on the road. It's like the Ford F-150 of Costa Rica. Finding some in Junk yards are hard to come by. That and Land Cruisers. But all the Land Cruisers here have extensive body rust and underbody rust. Due to heavy rains 6 months of the year. Aluminum Diamond Plating is common for LC. There are quite a few Nissan Patrols here to. But mostly used by Officals and such. The Santana which is also popular model here has some legends about it. Not using 100% Aluminum on the body panels, smaller rivets, And thin Aluminum. Poor Galvanized metals. etc. On all Land Rover models for saftely reasons they have a steel firewall that is between the door and the front fenders. Even all new model Defenders. It is common they rust in those areas. However in a third world almost 2nd world counrty like Costa Rica. They can fabricate anything. So just about any part for a land rover can be made here. Or made in Brazil. Even for Land Cruisers. The popularity of the Land Rover and Land cruiser has been around before these counrties had roads. Just because it was the only thing that got you around. After 40-50 years of tests. they all sell like hot cakes here. i would say from my personal view. (Maybe Biased) 90% of all Land Rovers are still running today in Costa Rica. i personally know 8 people that use a 1978 or older model rover as a daily driver. (Oh and mostly all diesel here too). As far as Defender and Discovery. I know 4 people. For Land Cruiser 2, and Mercedes G class sport utily 2, Unimog 1. Nissan Patrol 1. Oh and I have 2 1978 88 SIII Land Rovers. 1 Fully restored.

_kevin

[edit] Quality problems

Someone outright deleted the "Quality Problems" section. Personally I'm not sure it's appropriate - this is an encyclopedia, not consumer reports. But they should probably explain their reasons. I do notice a distinct anti-Land Rover bias here. mainly by a few individuals, as well as a personal, Africa-centric, anti-LR view. Rovers _are_ used as extensively as military vehicles; and I know they're used by the UN, I've seen pictures. Authors writing stories about the wilderness don't put their characters in a Nissan Patrol, or a Mitsubiushi Pajero, or a Toyota Land Cruiser, even though all three probably do outsell Rovers I think that the sections on Rhinos and so forth added character to the article and could have been re-stated and kept for flavor. Land Rovers do have a style, history, and charm that's recognizable; that's been used for advertising gimmics in the past but it does have a basis in reality. While you may have a grudge against LR, please try to keep it NPOV. --User:Justfred

Re Quality Problems: I agree, and don't believe Wikipedia is the platform for consumer feedback regarding Land Rovers. It's fair enough to mention the problems briefly, but the size of the section as a proportion of the enire article is way over the top. Many other car manufacturers have quality problems, but there is no other article on Wikipedia about a car manufacturer that devotes as much space to this issue. I feel that maybe just one disgruntled customer is responsible for this section, and I think it is certainly not NPOV and should be deleted.

[edit] Northern Ireland

What kind of Land Rovers are the armoured ones used by the police in Northern Ireland? How many do they have? How long have they used the land rovers?

zoney ♣ talk 00:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

They were often Shorlands, made by Shorts Brothers of Belfast. RUC got them from 1965. In 1990 approx. 1000 had been made, not all for RUC, mind. There's a bit about it in the no: military Land Rovers article. In Norwegian, though. That's all I've got... Harald Hansen 13:55, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
See the Shorland article for info and links to websites. GraemeLeggett 14:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] British Aerospace?

The introduction claims that one of Land Rover's past owners was British Aerospace, is this accurate? My understanding is that before Ford bought Land Rover, the company had always been part of Rover and that Rover was owned by British Leyland, Honda and then BMW, but certainly never British Aerospace. Joe 1987 00:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

1988 British Aerospace buys Rover Group from British Government for (pounds)150,000,000. justfred

[edit] Safety?

The Land Rover page says that according to a study into fatalities by vehicle make, the Land Rover Defender is about the safest vehicle on UK roads, yet the Land Rover Defender page says the Defender doesn't meet the safety standards to be sold in the US. Why is this? I've been looking for Euro-NCAP data on the Defender but can't find anything except pages supposedly about the Defender's safety rating but which give an "N/A" or Not Available rating next to the NCAP heading.

Does anyone have a link to any studies into the probability of roll-over crashes in Defenders?

Sciamachy 09:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It has probably more to do with what kind of driving Defender owners do rather than the technical safety features of the vehicle. Harald Hansen 09:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is the reason ... Land Rover (Series/Defender)#The Defender in the USA - it had to do with the inability to install air bags in the interior. --T-dot 17:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clubs

Why have the links to the Land Rover clubs been removed? Talskiddy 21:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is not a link repository. See the links to avoid in the external links guideline. The deleted links invariably fall under unverified (original research) sites and forums, all of which are to be avoided. JonHarder 00:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
where does it say no links to auto clubs? Talskiddy 19:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There are several reasons that "external links should be used sparingly and kept to a minimum." Editors of a good article will include only the most valuable links for the reader. This prevents Wikipedia from becoming a web directory. Links should supplement and enhance the content of the article. This article had links to twenty-five clubs and forums, yet they are apparently of no particular importance in presenting the reader with balanced information on the Land Rover because no mention is made of the siginficance of clubs or forums in the article text itself. Clubs are analogous to fansites; both fansites and forum links are discouraged in an article, unless the article text demands it. If the editors of this article feel club links are essential to understanding the topic, then I suggest the solution used in other articles. Add a link to an open directory such as:
*{{dmoz|Recreation/Autos/Makes_and_Models/Land_Rover/Clubs/|Land Rover Clubs}}
which contains dozens of links and avoids having the article become a spam magnet, as often happens when indiscriminant lists are permitted to grow. I hope this helps! JonHarder 22:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added the link as suggested but I have visited other auto entries and there are many that have lists of forums and clubs. I expect they will be edited out also?, but it won't be by me! : ) Talskiddy
Despite being in a club, and being enthusiastic about Land Rovers, I'd agree that a list of clubs is perhaps not appropriate in the article. Mention of the fact that Land Rovers have an enthusiastic following, and that there are many local, regional, national and international clubs would be relevant and worthy of inclusion, though. AndrewH 11:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LAND ROVER PROFITS

The most profitable part of PAG is Volvo,not Land Rover according to the Automotive News newspaper,the best of its kind, and Reuters...So I would like the phrase claiming that "In 2005 it was the most profitable part of Ford's Premier Automotive Group (PAG) brand portfolio." being deleted or please show me a reference... My references:[http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2007-01- 08T174815Z_01_N08377221_RTRIDST_0_FORD-VOLVO-UPDATE-1.XML&src=GLOBALCOVERAGE_auto]and [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.202.25.203 (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

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