Talk:Lance Corporal

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[edit] Middle Ages reference

Ive restored the reference to the Middle Ages rank origin. I have read this in numerous military history textbooks. Note, the article does not say this is 100 percent confirmed, but rather it is a possible origin of the rank. The other origin with the Italian rank could be just as correct. -Husnock 21:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
lance corporal
NOUN: 1. abbr. LCpl A noncommissioned rank in the U.S. Marine Corps that is above private first class and below corporal. 2. One who holds this rank.
ETYMOLOGY: From lancepesade, from obsolete French lancepessade, from Italian lancia spezzata, superior soldier : lancia, lance (from Latin lancea; see lance) + spezzata, feminine past participle of spezzare, to break to pieces ( Latin dis-, apart; see dis– + pezza, piece, from Medieval Latin pecia, piece, from Vulgar Latin *pettia).
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: lance corporal
Function: noun
Etymology: lance (as in obsolete lancepesade lance corporal, from Middle French lancepessade): an enlisted man in the marine corps ranking above a private first class and below a corporal
From the Online Etymology Dictionary:
lance
c.1290, from O.Fr. lance, from L. lancea "light spear" (It. lancia, Sp. lanza, Ger. Lanze), possibly of Celt-Iberian origin. The verb meaning "to pierce with a lance" is from c.1300; the surgical sense (properly with ref. to a 'lancet') is from 1474. Lance corporal (1786) is from obsolete lancepesade "officer of lowest rank" (1578), from O.It. lancia spezzata "old soldier," lit. "broken lance."
From Dictionary.com:
lancepesade
\Lance`pe*sade"\, n. [F. lancepessade, lanspessade, anspessade, It. lancia spezzata a broken lance or demilance, a demilance roan, a light horseman, bodyguard.] An assistant to a corporal; a private performing the duties of a corporal; -- called also lance corporal.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
From the MSN Encarta dictionary:
lance corporal
lance cor·po·ral (plural lance cor·po·rals)
noun
1. Marine rank: a noncommissioned officer in the U.S. Marine Corps of a rank above private first class
2. rank of noncommissioned officer: a British Army or British Royal Marines noncommissioned officer of a rank above private
[< obsolete lancepesade "officer of the lowest rank," via French < Old Italian lancia spezzata "broken lance"]
From the FAQ of Leatherneck (Magazine of the Marines) :
I enlisted in 1940. What is a lance corporal?
There were no lance corporals in the Marine Corps when you served. The rank, which falls between private first class and corporal, has been around since the 1830s when the Corps also had lance-sergeants. It went out of use sometime after 1930 and was reinstituted in 1958. Reference: "Handbook for Marine NCOs" by Col Robert D. Heinl, USMC (Ret)
According to the 1979 edition of the handbook, the term "lance corporal" results from a marriage of the French word lancepesade and corporal. Lancepesade means "broken lance." Therefore, the term lance corporal can be translated as "an old soldier who has broken many a lance in combat."
From the USMC Customs and Traditions page of the Marine Corps Brotherhood's site:
Lance Corporal results from a marriage of the French word Lancepesade (literally meaning "broken Lance" and hence an old soldier who has broken many a lance in combat) to "Corporal." At first, the rank was simply lancepesade, but soon became Lancepesade-Corporal, from which the present title comes, being first recorded in 1611. The Marine Corps has had Lance Corporals (and, for a time, Lance-Sergeants, too) since the 1830s, although the rank went out of use between 1930 and 1958, when it was re-established.
The OED gives a similar etymology, but I don't have a copy to hand.
Searching on Google for "corporal of lance" or "corporals of lance" turns up only mirrors of this article, plus one page in Croatian that I can't translate.
What's your source for this derivation? — Franey 10:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
My primary source is a textbook called "Introduction to Naval Science" which is used in US Naval ROTC. In the "origins of rank" section, it talks about the Middle Ages reference. There was also a rather large segment about this rank on the show Mail Call, where the MA origins was talked about and the Armed Forces Network did a history show in 1999 where they spoke of it as well. There were also at least two other U.S. Army Institute of History Books that talked about this. I think we're getting confused on the issue, in that noone is saying that the above info, posted by Franey is untrue. It is simply possible that both origins have some merit. I see nothing wrong with rewriting the intro to leave the Middle Ages reference in but state clearly it is the more ambigious of the two origins, if that has not been done already. -Husnock 12:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Can you quote the relevant part from Introduction to Naval Science? I'm not being awkward, I'm genuinely curious, as I can't find another reference to corporals of lance anywhere (apart from that Croatian page). I also wonder why corporal of lance would become lance corporal when corporal of horse didn't become horse corporal (Corporal of Horse, as I'm sure you're aware, is still a rank in the Household Cavalry regiments of the British Army.) — Franey 12:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Marines: appointment or rank?

Is Lance Corporal still an appointment rather than a substantive rank in the Royal Marines? Two pages which suggest this:

The former states that 'Neither the Naval Service nor the Royal Air Force has any personnel at OR-3'. OR-3 is the NATO rank code for Lance Corporal, and the Naval Service includes the Royal Marines.

The latter has no RM rank corresponding to the Army's Lance Corporal.

Anyone know for sure? — Franey 10:32, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Lance Corporal is, in fact, an OR-3 rank. While the Naval Service itself doesn't have one, the RMs use a completely separate rank structure, similar to the US Navy and Marine Corps. You should be able to find a more complete list of NATO rank codes that includes individual listings for RM ranks.
Fox1 15:00, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
We know that, but actually check the links that Franey gives. You will notice that in the first link the listing is Naval Service and not Royal Navy - this includes the Royal Marines (and it says the Naval Service has no OR-3 ranks). In the second link, the Royal Marines ranks are actually listed separately from both the RN and the Army with no OR-3 rank listed. These are both official MoD sites. So his question still stands. It's one that's been puzzling me too. -- Necrothesp 15:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
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