Talk:Labrys

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the word etimon isn't in the OED, and google comes up with no english language hits. It doesn't seem to be an english word here. I therefore change it. Lethe 21:09, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

Ok, apparently the word is etymon, not etimon Lethe 21:11, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
the statement was wrong anyway. Neither is there a known 'minoan language', nor is it even remotely possible that the word has an etymological connection with "labia". dab 12:49, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] halbryce

this word only appeared on WP mirrors and on a few sites selling necklaces. do we have a source that says it means labrys, and where and when it was used? dab 13:06, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] other dubitable statements

  • weapon of the Amazons in Greek mythology
  • used as a medieval charm to attract women
  • "The shrine to Mother Earth at Delphi"
there are chthonic elements in Delphi, but last time I checked the site was sacred to Apollo
  • Some Minoan labrys have been found which are taller than a man and which might have been used during sacrifices
the tall ones were of stone and certainly not used for sacrifice

the whole article looked like copied from feminist websites. I don't know enough to say these statements are false flat out, but they smell of internet myths. We need to give sources. For example, I was unable to find a reference to Amazons+Labrys on TLG (indeed the term only appears in Plutarch, qst century AD). dab 14:38, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah man, go at it with a machete, i'm for it. -Lethe | Talk

--- I came to express some objections and see that Dbachmann has already voiced some of them. Let us dissociate the Minoan labrys from the modern symbolism being adopted by various groups: In symbology, it is associated with female and matristic power etc. Does the word really first appear only in "Plutarchus"? The connection with labyrinth is good-- a pre-Greek word, like other words with -nth- in them. Did Gimbutas really make a butterfly connection? --Wetman 10:12, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

yeah, she did. It's one of the examples I pull out when I'm making fun of her (not here though, this is a serious reference :), together with her interpretation of a bull's head representing the goddess, because the shape of the horns allude to the shape of the ovaries (I'm not making this up!). I don't know how the word actually came into English. In Ancient Greek it is mentioned by Plutarchus only, as a Lydian word (not for double-axe, just for axe). There seems to be a missing link as to how the word ended up meaning what it means now. dab (ᛏ) 15:30, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just found that Hesychius has λαβρύσσει glossed as 'to brag' or 'to be a coward'. But this is connected to a word labros meaninf 'furious'. Probably no connection. Context:

<λαβράζει>· λάβρος γίνεται. ἀκολασταίνει. προπετεύεται
<λαβρεία>· ἡ τοῦ λόγου †ἔκληψις
<λαβρεύονται>· ῥέουσι μεγάλα βουλεύονται. θορυβοῦσι σφόδρα
<λαβρεῦσαι>· λάβρως καὶ ἀθρόως λαλεῖν (N)
<λαβρεύεαι>· μεγαληγορεῖς. προγλωσσεύῃ. ἀθρόως λέγεις, ἀμέ-
τρως (Ψ 478)  
<λάβρον>· ἅθρουν. προπετές, ταχύ (Ο 625). μαινόμενον. 
βορόν
<λαβρώνιον>· εἶδος ποτηρίου πλατέος 
*<λάβρος>· πολύς Sb, [σφοδρός 
<λαβροσιάων>· χορτασμῶν ἀκόσμων
<λαβροστομία>· ἡ δύσχρηστος λαλιά
*<λαβρότατος>· σφοδρότατος 
[<λαβρόϊον>· εἶδος ποτηρίου]
<λαβρύσσει>· λαβρεύει
<λαβρύσσει>· δειλαίνει
*<λαβύρινθος>· κοχλιοειδὴς τόπος. λέγεται δὲ ἡ λέξις ἐπὶ τῶν
φλυάρων, παρὰ τὸ πολλοῖς κύκλοις λόγων κεχρῆσθαι
what, we don't have an article on Hesychius?? dab (ᛏ) 15:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

what about this:

<λαβρώνιον>· εἶδος ποτηρίου πλατέος 
<λαβρόϊον>· εἶδος ποτηρίου]

labroion/labronion: shape of a (broad) drinking-cup — maybe this is related to the shape of the labrys? rather obscure, I'll admit. dab (ᛏ) 16:04, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Etymologies, whether used as a rhetorical device to pay a fulsome and elaborate compliment (Pindar and all the Alexandrians) or to further an agenda (Jerome, Isidore of Seville, Jacobus de Voragine) are best left to professionals. So many houses of cards have been built on etymologies. And the Ancients were not infallible: see Talk:Syncretism for a rash of simple-minded reliance on a zany off-day Plutarch had, owlishly repeated by Wikipedians. Labrys is apparently pre-Greek, like Thalassos or Corinth. That's worth noting. What it meant is dream-food for websites. A more important connection is that labyrinth is clearly "the place of the labrys": I think there's no contention about that connection. --Wetman 17:23, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
of course. My point is that labrys is not even attested in pre-Christian Greek. I suppose that you realized I have removed any number of dreamy statements from this article? What is missing from the etymology section is the earliest attested use of the word for a double axe (19th century? Arthur Ewans?) dab (ᛏ) 11:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I do realize that: indeed, your sensible and informed edits have attracted my attention. I was looking at the above discussion only. The following quote from an entry "labrys" is from the "Brief Lexicon of Greek Terms" prepared for students at Bucknell: "Labrys was also a non-Greek word. It has been suggested that it comes from Lydian (?) and is related to the weapon of Zeus Labraundeus worshipped at Labraundea in Caria (cf. Plutarch, Quaest. Graec. 45. and Hdt.1.171-173)." It's worth quoting Plutarch on labrys as "axe" in the entry, since it's such an outstanding usage. So the connection with the ritual double-axe of Crete might have been first made by Sir Arthur Evans then? I know nothing of Labraundea in Caria. I shall set to work Googling "Labraunda" right away to cobble together a stub. --Wetman 14:00, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC) (Corrected to Labraunda.)
When does this come into English? Well, the first occurence listed by the OED is this:
Journal of Hellenic Studies XXI. 108 (1901): "It seems natural to interpret names of Carian sanctuaries like Labranda in the most literal sense as the place of the sacred labrys, which was the Lydian (or Carian) name for the Greek πέλεκυς, or double-edged axe.";
Ibid. 109 "On Carian coins indeed of quite late date the labrys, set up on its long pillar-like handle, with two dependent fillets, has much the appearance of a cult image."
--67.36.187.212 23:12, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Too good! I'm stealing our Anon. contributor's quote for Labraunda for a start! --Wetman 00:32, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

sigh, I realize that the Shiva, Ptah, Mayan, Scythian, Norse and African references are also dubitable. At least Shiva and Ptah are certainly not comonly represented with a double axe. How to verify this? It is true that towards the end of the Viking Age, double axes made a short appearance as actual weapons, but I think that was an technological innovation (unsuccessful at that) and not a tradition based in myth at all. dab (ᛏ) 22:37, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I think we can scrap the 'Norse'. this site does its best to draw a connection, but does it cannot show any actual examples. dab (ᛏ) 22:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


here is an interesting reference, if somebody can access it>

The mediaeval history of the double-axe motif / O'Conner, Robert B. - In: American journal of archaeology. The journal of the Archaeological Institute of America (1920)

dab (ᛏ) 22:51, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Delphi

well, what shrine, and what goddess? Delphi says:

"The shrine dedicated to Apollo was probably originally dedicated to Gaia and then Poseidon."

so, it is the same shrine that was dedicated to Apollo. It's just "the shrine", we don't need to say whether it was dedicated to a goddess, or not, the statement simply says that a labrys is decorating the shrine, never mind the goddessess... dab (ᛏ) 15:26, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It was a long continuously operating place, and the connotation of its details must have slowly shifted between ca. 1500 BCE and 493 CE. But does this assertion mean that a labrys or a carved representation of one on a frieze has been recovered by archaologists at the Delphi site, and published? --Wetman 17:23, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't even know it the statement is true, either. I tried to find out on the web, but it's impossible. Some sites claim that the priests in Delphi were called Labrytes, a word entirely unattested in Greek literature. dab (ᛏ) 16:06, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You know what, I have cut so many false statements from the page, it would not surprise me if the ones I am unable to verify are false too. Therefore, I cut the following from the article, to be re-inserted with references:

In Greek mythology, Demeter used a Labrys as a scepter. The shrine at Delphi displays the Labrys.

dab (ᛏ) 16:08, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely right about Demeter's scepter. A labrys at Delphi, or among the treasuries at Olympia, is a possibility... The Minoan labrys in our illustration is probably at the museum at Iraklion, Crete. --Wetman 17:23, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I get you here. You mean you can confirm the sceptre story? or you mean I was right in removing it? No scepter is mentioned in Demeter's article. I don't deny the possibility of representations of double axes in Delphi at all. I have seen them depicted on classical greek vases, connected with animal sacrifice. If we say it appears in Delphi, we should be more clear, from which century roughly is the image etc. Btw, synkretism really is from Crete. I know it sounds unbelievable at first, but it didn't mean 'mixture' either, at first. It meant 'pact of cretans', and the meaning shifted under the influence of popular connection with kerannumi. dab (ᛏ) 11:54, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No. I meant that your statement was "absolutely right about Demeter." I think there's no double-axe represented as wielded by any post-Minoan Greek goddess. (Demeter wields poppies and grain.)

[edit] amazons, after all

I think I found the source of the connection of the labrys with the amazons: sagaris [1]

saga^ris , eôs Ion. ios, hê; pl. sagareis Ion. -i_s:--a weapon used by the Scythian tribes, Hdt.1.215, 4.5;

A. axinas sagaris eichon Id.7.64 ; by the Amazons, Aristarch. in 
PAmh.2.12 ii 10; by the Persians, Amazons, Mossynoeci, etc., 
X.An.4.4.16, 5.4.13:--acc. to Hsch. single-edged, and joined by 
X. with kopis and machaira, Cyr. 1.2.9, 2.1.9, 4.2.22; 
double-edged acc. to AP6.94 (Phil.).

i.e. an axe-like weapon, sometimes described as single-edged, and sometimes as double-edged. This shouild probably be put in a Sagaris article.

Well done! --Wetman 18:55, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pelekus

I'm sorry, Wetman, but pelekus (not pelekos) was the term for any axe, not necessarily double-headed at all. dab (ᛏ) 10:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

All I know is what I read: OED quotes Journal of Hellenic Studies XXI. 108 (1901): "It seems natural to interpret names of Carian sanctuaries like Labranda in the most literal sense as the place of the sacred labrys, which was the Lydian (or Carian) name for the Greek πέλεκυς, or double-edged axe." (Is that Arthur Evans being quoted, btw?) And Plutarch: "And having set up a statue of Zeus, he put the axe in his hand and called the god, "Labrandeus," labrys being the Lydian word for 'axe'. (Λυδοὶ γάρ ‘λάβρυν’ τὸν πέλεκυν ὀνομάζουσι." My error about "pelekos"! If these sources are misinformed, the entry would be improved with some disambiguation of the two axe terms. --Wetman 11:01, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are right, it seems that the word indeed came to mean "double-axe" in particular. There was even a term hemipelekus for single-edged ones. It was however also used for "axe" in general. The word is cognate to Sanskrit parashu, which also seems to mean axe in general, but it is likely ultimately a loan from Sumerian balag (rather, who loaned whose word back in 4000 BC cannot now be established...) dab (ᛏ) 11:13, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The word with the Sanskrit cognate. being therefore the IE word, replacing labrys. You're competent to add a note: I'm not. Go for it. --Wetman 12:28, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
it's slightly more complicated than that. pelek'u- may have been a loan into the Proto-Indo-European language, as it is not identifiable as containing any known PIE root. It may be a neolithic "Wanderwort", referring to stone axes, that is also reflected in Sumerian, and it may have originally been a term for any axe, and only later, as an archaic word with ritual/sacrificial overtones been associated with the double-axe, that had similar archaic connotations. All this would probably all belong on a more general axe article, or maybe on a special pelekus article, but I agree with your reference to the word now. dab (ᛏ) 13:14, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


[edit] daburintos

I haven't been through all of the Mycenaean references yet, and I've slacked on a few Kadmos articles, but I haven't specifically run across daburintos as labrys/double axe in Ventris' or Chadwick's work... anyone have a reference handy? Thanks! - Damate thought out loud 19 Jan 2006 02:27 PST

the reference is da-pu2-ri-to-jo on KN Gg 702. dab (ᛏ) 15:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
that's not surmised to mean "double axe" of course, but the "daburinthoyo potnia" is, rather, the "Lady of the Labyrinth". dab (ᛏ) 15:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
And the next evening, I found it in Chadwick's The Mycenaean World - p. 92-93 for posterity Damate thought out loud 20 Jan 2006 21:39 (PST)
I put the tablet number in the article, and an asterisk to the reconstructed form; maybe this should be in a footnote. dab (ᛏ) 07:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Datum for history of Amazon association

There's a ca. 1830's Currier print "Queen of the Amazons Attacked by a Lion" which clearly shows the Queen wielding a double-bladed axe... AnonMoos 07:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Also used as emblem in Vichy France?

See Image:Musee-de-lArmee-IMG 1014.jpg , Image:Flag of Vichy France.png , commons:Image:Brigade-speciale-IMG 0894.JPG , etc. AnonMoos 13:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charun carried a labrys?

I have found no less than eleven sources that state that Charun carried a hammer that he used to torture the dead. Glengordon01 claims that the following passage from Robert S. P. Beekes proves that Charun carried a labrys, though it says nothing of him:

When this bipennis [‘double axe’], property of ‘Zeus Bakchos’, carried as symbol of sacred power by Lydian kings, is encountered again as the symbol of the royal authority of the Etruscan kings, particularly of the supreme king of the federation of cities, this may be considered an important indication of the Asia Minor origin of the entire underlying ideology, and of the ceremony of investiture in which the bipennis played a part.’
These conclusions are of primary importance, as they concern a deeprooted complex of religious views that cannot have been taken over from elsewhere. (p.31-32)

I vote that his claim that Charun carried the labrys be removed on grounds of verifiability and original research. --Scottandrewhutchins 23:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You vote like a one-man army. You're abusing Burden of proof (logical fallacy) by forcing others to prove that the subjective opinions of your shoddy references are false. It's as simple as that, as can be clearly seen at Charun. --Glengordon01 23:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No, Glengordon, you are simply refusing to provide evidence of your claims, which up to this point show no signs of being anything other than subjective opinons themselves. You're the only one resorting to a logical fallacy, demanding we believe something when you have yet to cite a single authority that says anything about Charun. Please tell me exactly what you have done to prove your assertions are true. That's all I'm asking, not for you to prove mine false. I am using multiple sources, you are using none, and Ace of Sevens agress with me. I have posted to Wikipedia:WikiProject Mythology to see what they think. --Scottandrewhutchins 23:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Glengordon01 self-incriminates his own violation of Wikipedia credos on his own talk page. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

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