Talk:Kusanagi

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Questions:

1. Is "Yamato-dake" the same as "Yamato-Takeru"? Takeru is the name I heard in my Japanese Lit. class. He also has a heading in Japanese mythology.

2. Did Suijin have the replica of Kusanagi made before the Battle of Dan no Ura? He would have to have, since he was Emperor #10 and the child emperor was #81. This should be made more clear in the article, since making a replica of a non-lost sword is much easier than making a replica of a lost sword.

3. Does this really belong in the category of "fictional swords?" Sure, the magical powers are fiction, but there was some sword that got chunked in the ocean at Dan-no-Ura. I would argue that the sword is "mythological" but not "fictional".

Since the Imperial regalia are integral to the mythos surrounding the Imperial family, and the Heike Monogatari is a literary work all about the fall of the Imperial family, then it is just as likely that the "sword" that got supposedly chucked into the sea and lost forever was simply symbolic of the fall of the family. I agree that "fictional" isn't accurate, but the sword is legendary and whether it exists or ever existed hasn't been confirmed, and is largely beside the point anyway. But the article shouldn't suggest that there is a real sword if it can't be confirmed. MikeDockery 04:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 supposed picture of the sword 2 from Japan 3 Removing "Fictional swords" 4 Historical? 5 D&D Section 6 Etymology 7 Too much trivia

[edit] supposed picture of the sword

http://www.munitions.com/~fianna/lion/sword.html --Deelkar 23:10, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I very much doubt it could be Kusanagi, this weapon is typically in the "katana" style, which is not possible to build with mere bronze or iron. Besides, it does not... I mean... look very Japanese. Does it ? It's not even a sword -- how could one wield this ? A more probable picture would be http://www.uwec.edu/philrel/shimbutsudo/images/kusanagi.jpg , for instance. Rama 21:32, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

On the page I mentioned the image is named "ameratsu.gif", any hints to what this refers to? on the issue how to wield the sword pictured there I can see no real problem? The wings around the handle might be limiting in some way but not prohibitive. --Deelkar 10:37, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

to prevent misunderstandings: I meant wether that particular sword could be famous/important as well, as in somehow related to the myths around the sun goddess Amaterasu. --Deelkar 10:43, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please stop the meaningless argument...Nobody can see the Kusanagi,Even the Shinto priest of the Atsuta shrine or the Emperor cannot do. So,It is still a mystery also in Japan what form the sword has.For Example,it is one of the picture as imagined by Japanese.But We can't declares it is correct or incorrect.Because Nobody see this sword.--Suguri F 16:38, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is pretty much what I'm on about. If NOONE is allowed to see it, then its existence at all is unconfirmable. It may or may not exist, but its existence hasn't been confirmed, so the article shouldn't say that it definitely exists. Just like if the British royal family claimed to have Excaliber in their attic, but noone was allowed to see it, then noone should be reasonably expected to believe that what they're saying is true. MikeDockery 04:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Deelkar, I think this sword of yours is something more related to fantasy than to Japanese history. The guy who forged this thing just gave it a name :p

Suguri F, you must have misunderstood, we do not try to find a picture of Kusanagi, just to give an example of the style which is closer to what it might reasonably refer to. Just like I would not point out a medieval sword as "being" Excalibur, but yet would pick it up as a better example than a lightsabre. :p Rama 17:20, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] from Japan

Hello! I'm Japanese. This hero's name is not "Yamato-dake" but "Yamato-Takeru" Please show it.Wikipedia.ja Yamato-takeru

[edit] Removing "Fictional swords"

I think it is unreasonable to call this a "fictional swords" as it does or had existed. It can be argued that as its origin is in legends, it is a fictional sword, but then one would have to call all things with a legendary beginning as "Fictional". For example, many Greek cities as well as number of others are claimed to have been founded by gods or demi-gods but it would be pointless to call them "Fictional cities". It is most certainly a mythic weapon but to call it "fictional" is going too far. 01:05, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, the category hould be renamed. After all, whats iteresting is the legendary nature, not the fictional. I would support the inclusion in a "Mythical swords", or "Legendary swords". Rama 04:51, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The category is now removed.Revth 14:35, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Historical?

"In historical times, the emperor possessed a real sword with the name Kusanagi. However, in 688 it was removed from the palace to Atsuta Shrine after the sword was blamed for causing Emperor Temmu to fall ill."

I assume you meant prehistoric times, since the Temmu stuff is in the Nihonshiki, which is the first real "history" of Japan. Nothing before that would be called historical. So, anything before that would be prehistoric, i.e. - before (written) history.

Which brings me to another point, if it was prehistoric, how could anyone verify it? Radiocarbon dating on the sword or something? That's gonna be difficult since the Shinto Priests won't let anyone see it. And THAT brings me to another theory of the current state of the sword that has surely been suggested by someone - that the sword doesn't and never did exist. The "replica" theory would become the "forgery" theory, in that case. I don't have references for any of this so I'm not gonna change the article, but it would be something to look into. MikeDockery 04:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

After talking to some Japanese friends, I decided to rework the section. I referenced other Wikipedia pages for most of the information. MikeDockery 03:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] D&D Section

The original title of this section was "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons," which is a different edition than current one for that game; this may be worth mentioning. Does anyone have a citation for where the Kusanagi is mentioned in AD&D source material?--Iainuki May 2, 2006

[edit] Etymology

Although "Nagi" does mean "snake" (or a snake-like animal) in ancient Japanese, "Kusa" does not mean "sword." However, I am not sure what it DOES mean in an ancient context - it make mean "malodorous" (which is consistent with modern Japanese) but I read in one Internet source that it was something more like "extremely powerful" (or something like that) - however, I would like to have a more sure source in which to base article changes on. Edededed 04:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

My Kojien (a pretty reliable source, IMO) has this as a possible meaning: nagi = snake; kusa = smelly (same as in today's Japanese), kusanagi no tsurugi = the snake sword (blade?). This is listed as a possible ethymology, not a 100% certain one. But it is still more likely than saying kusa means sword - if that were so, there'd be no need to add no tsurugi to it, would there? That would de facto make the meaning of the whole kusanagi no tsurugi into the snake sword sword. TomorrowTime 06:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too much trivia

Roughly half of this entry is trivia. None of it adds anything relevant to the topic. This needs to be cleaned up. Lets try to limit it to the most relevant 3-5 items. Bendono 04:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)