User talk:Kuratowski's Ghost

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[edit] Jeshu article

Please stop re-creating the Jeshu article; it contains information which is already in 3 other articles, and Yeshu is the more common form anyway. I'm going to re-direct it again, please see the comments on the Yeshu Talk: page. Jayjg 22:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] From Time Immemorial

You have twice reverted my work, which you call "leftist ranting" and "crank edits". What part of it did you find problematic and why? AaronSw 05:19, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your version of the article presents an extreme leftwing view of the book including views that are of a conspiracy theory nature. It provides a false view of the current status of the book. The reality is that the book is still highly regarded and recommended and in use as a textbook. Kuratowski's Ghost 11:11, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps you should review the policy on NPOV. We don't remove facts no matter how "leftwing" and "conspiracy theory" they are. As for your second claim about the current status of the book, you have presented no evidence for it. Can you cite where it is used as a textbook and who regards it highly? AaronSw 14:55, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For example the external link to the biography of Peters mentions its use in both Israel and America. It receives regular recommendation from leading political commentators on the Arab-Israeli conflict such as Winston, Pasko and Basch Kuratowski's Ghost 15:21, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish ethnocentrism article

The Jewish ethnocentrism article is currently up for deletion. You can find the discussion, and vote, at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Jewish ethnocentrism. Jayjg (talk) 06:51, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AaronSw and Norman Finkelstein

Have you seen AaronSw's contributions to Norman Finkelstein re:Joan Peters? Any thoughts on them? Jayjg (talk) 22:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Info about yourself on your User page

Hi, would you care to please let us know a little about yourself and your interests on your user page at User:Kuratowski's Ghost which stands bereft calling out for your input! Be well. IZAK 09:06, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Thanks for adding the info, it helps...IZAK 08:11, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evacuation

Mah Shlomha haveri. I will see what I can do. It is very hard for me to be objective about a subject so disgraceful, but I will do my best.

Guy Montag 03:35, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

I just stumbled across your work on Rhinocorura and Brook of Egypt. I am very impressed with your erudition! -- llywrch 20:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neubauten

I just noticed that you reverted my correction of the statement that "Neubau" refers to a style. I won't revert it again – i'm tired of edit wars with people who don't adequately back up their POV. But i wonder why you did that. You just have been called erudite, and you certainly don't seem like a rash POV contributor. But neither am i. As you can check in my history, if i change a statement, then i only do so when i know what i'm doing.

The term "Neubau" has been used in the meaning "new building" since the 18th century, according to Duden: Das Herkunfswörterbuch. It is not listed as an style in either Wilfried Koch: Baustilkunde, Orbis Verlag, 1994 or dtv-Atlas zur Baukunst, dtv, 1981. Do you have any serious reference that defines it as a style? — Sebastian (T) 21:54, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)

Well its something repeated over and over in articles about the band and can be found in the rec.music.industrial FAQ for example. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From Einstürzende Neubauten

"The band's name is a marvelously compact poetical phrase and does not translate easily into English. "Imploding new buildings" is the main meaning. However "Einsteurtzende" is "Imploding" as an adjective not a verb - i.e. new buildings that are busy collapsing, falling down. But "Neubauten" is not just new buildings in general, it can also refer to a specific style of architecture, faceless concrete monoliths."

From RMI FAQ

"Neubauten" generally refers to buildings built in a particular style, rather than to any recently constructed buildings. The style in question is the impersonal concrete-box modernist style. Most housing projects (especially the huge towers built in the 60's) are perfect examples of Neubauten."

From Einstürzende Neubauten

Einstürzende Neubauten translates to "collapsing new buildings," which could be misunderstood as a desire to get a wreaking ball and set about town. In fact the name refers to buildings built in Germany after the Second World War that were so poorly constructed, they literally just collapsed

Kuratowski's Ghost 02:55, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---- Now i see where you're coming from. How about: "The term has been used since the 18th century to mean just "new building". For the band this evokes the image of buildings built during the Wiederaufbau (whatever that translates to in English), which were ..."?

What seems to be important for the band, and what distinguishes the buildings of that era is that they were cheap – following the sheer necessity of providing shelter for as many people as possible as quickly as possible with very limited resources. Style is not the issue – in fact, stylistic considerations were an unaffordable luxury. But if you want to give it a name, use the correct name: functionalism.

In short, defining "Neubau" as "buildings built during a certain time" makes as little sense as defining "baby" to mean "anyone born between 2004 and 2005". Much as i love music – please let’s leave the definition of architectural styles to architects. — Sebastian (T) 06:22, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)

[edit] BC/AD versus BCE/CE

There's a discussion and a vote on this topic going on at Talk:Jesus#Reversions & Consensus on BCE/AD; I thought you might be interested. Jayjg (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus

Please comment on Jguk's most recent actions [1], [2]. It seems to me that he is destroying what I thought was a carefully constructec (though not, of course perfect) NPOV article. Previous differences between us notwithstanding, I trust your integrity and your committment to NPOV and would like to know what you think. Frankly, I think we may have reached the point where arbitration or at least mediation is required. I honestly do not believe Jguk understands or cares about NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Please check out Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate, Slrubenstein | Talk 00:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lebesgue covering dimension

Hi, you changed the aricle Lebesgue covering dimension and replaced refinement by subcover. That seems really wrong to me; are you sure? I'll be posting an example to the talk page; please review. linas 03:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Israel

Hello Kuratowski's Ghost: Please contact User:Humus sapiens who wishes to start a Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Israel See his request below. Thanks IZAK 06:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi IZAK (and everyone else here :), Do you think it's time to create Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Israel similar to Wikipedia:Wikiportal/India, Wikipedia:Wikiportal/New Zealand and other Category:Wikiportals? I'm writing this here because it was you who made those wonderful templates and we don't have a portal yet where we could communicate. What do you think? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 05:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Hi Humus, it's only me here, but I will pass your message on to "everyone". Yes, your suggestion is excellent, it is certainly time for what you describe, but I have no experience with Wikipedia portals, and if you know how, go ahead and start an Israel portal and I am sure editors of Israel-related articles will support you and join in the effort/s. Behatzlachah. IZAK 05:33, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nabataeans

Your edit summary: "Josephus mentions both Nebaioth and Nabatene but does not claim anything about the origin of the latter name." Could you work the Latin phrases and translations into the text, so that we can see what "Nebaioth" looks like in Josephus' Latin context. Or just give me the ref. to the passage and I'll do it. --Wetman 14:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Josephus is in Greek. The point is that Josephus doesn't seem to say anything about Nabatene being named after Nebaioth.

The English in Whiston is:

"Book I, 12:4. When the lad was grown up, he married a wife, by birth an Egyptian, from whence the mother was herself derived originally. Of this wife were born to Ismael twelve sons; Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Masaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Cadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates to the Red Sea, and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these, both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father."

Nebaioth is Nabaiôthês in the Greek and Nabatene is Nabatênên

The words obviously look similar, but less so in the original Hebrew and Aramaic forms which also differ in meaning. Nebaioth is n-b-y-t understood to mean words or prophecies or buds (root n-b-y with t=letter tav as plural ending, although Easton says it means "height" - go figure). Nabatean is n-b-T (with hard T = letter tet not typically interchangeable with tav) understood to mean "(well) digger". Kuratowski's Ghost 15:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not also the distinction in Josephus' Greek th = theta in Nabaiôthês vs t = tau in Nabatênên reflecting the difference in the Hebrew/Aramaic as well as the diphthong ai in Nabaiôthês reflecting the presence of the y (yud) in Nebaioth. Kuratowski's Ghost 15:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent addition to Yeshua

You might want to take a look at the recent addition to the Yeshua article. Jayjg (talk) 16:14, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your point about Yeshua being used for Yehoshua bin Nun and Yehoshua ben Yehotsadaq in Ezra/Nehemia. I didn't remember that. But I don't see how they could contract Yehoshua to Yeshua. There are no other such cases of Yeho- going to Ye-. Maybe there were two traditions for what the name was. By the way, I suppose you know that the name "Yehoshua" is written like "Yehoshea" (that is, no vav after the shin) and in a couple places "Hoshea". This is even farther from Yeshua.

What do you think was the pronunciation of the name of "Jesus"?

Feel free to answer me through e-mail via my (still empty) user page.

EricK 20:07, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd say there is not enough information known to be certain. The Ben Sirach example btw is not good as it is unknown if the Hebrew texts are original or translations into Hebrew from Greek or Syriac something found for example with Josephus' writings so also with ben Sirach we do not know for certain if his name was originally Yeshua or Yehoshua.

Kuratowski's Ghost 23:02, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But what is your guess? What, in your opinion is the most probable original pronunciation of "Jesus", and what is the second most probable?

I just changed some of what you wrote yesterday. :) I would be glad to support what I say, but it would be easier by e-mail in Hebrew.

Well its been some time since I read up on the Hebrew versions of Sirach but I remember arguments about it not necessarily being the original language of the text, the fact that the Greek has a chi at the end suggests an original name with a chet at the end, while the Hebrew texts have an aleph suggesting derivation from a variant Greek text without a chi. The 1910 Jewish Encyclopedia article is very biased against such a view but the matter has still not been settled a century after that article was written so I think mention still needs to be made in the Yeshua article.
Have you read the Hebrew and compared it to the Greek? It's obvious which one is the original. My copy is edited by Moshe Tsvi Segel, 5713 (which is 1952 or 1953), and he gives a very thorough and erudite discussion of the manuscripts and translations. (By the way, he expresses no doubt that the name was Yeshua. There is some doubt about whether the author was Shim`on ben Yeshua or Yeshua ben Shim`on.) EricK 28 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)
Also correct me if I'm wrong but none of the extant manuscripts are complete and all are missing the crucial intro listing the full name of the author, whose Hebrew form is only known from Saadia Gaon Kuratowski's Ghost 23:40, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, the name is used in Chapters 50 and 51 as well, where there is a manuscript. (Actually it was you who wrote that it was used in Hebrew texts of Ben Sira!) EricK 28 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)
I have no strong feeling about what the original for Jesus was, only a strong feeling that the case for "Yeshua" has never been conclusively shown. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:17, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But what else could it have been? Yehoshua? Yeshu? EricK 28 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)
It could have been Yehoshua, Yeshua or might simply be the Greek Iesous itself that was the original, something people overlook! Kuratowski's Ghost 28 June 2005 22:53 (UTC)

I like what you say about being a post-deconstructionist! I am one too! EricK 16:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See indented commments above.

I'm going to put back what I said about shin and `ayin. You're right that sigma "corresponds" to shin in the sense that shin is transliterated by sigma, but so is samekh. When transliterating from Greek to Hebrew or Aramaic, sigma is rendered by samekh, not shin. And there's no correspondence between `ayin and omicron (except that the character omicron is derived from the character `ayin). `Ayin is not transliterated by omicron, nor omicron by `ayin. The fact that the Syriac Bible uses Yeshua` for the name of...ha'ish hazeh...shows that there was a tradition that that really was his name. And there is no doubt that Christianity always had an Aramaic-speaking contingent, unbroken from the Apostles to the Aramaic-speaking Christians of today. EricK 28 June 2005 18:12 (UTC)

No one is saying that its was an attempt at transliterating precisely, the translator might have had on his mind that Yeshua ben Yotzadak was rendered Iesous and therefore picked Yeshua as the name to use in the translation Kuratowski's Ghost 28 June 2005 22:53 (UTC)

I don't think your suggestion that Y's name was simply the Greek Iesous is realistic. After all, the everyday language of him and his people was Aramaic, not Greek. He is often quoted in the gospels as saying something in Aramaic. His parents would not have called him by a Greek form of a Hebrew/Aramaic name!

I read the external link you put in. I find it strange that they care so much about casting doubt on the idea that Y's name was Yeshua. What is the point? They seem to think that by prohibiting use of the name Yeshua they will make Christianity less acceptable to Jews--as though they will confound the "missionaries" by announcing that we don't even know the correct pronunciation of Y's name! I did learn one thing from it--that there are many references to various Talmudic sages called Yehoshua but none called Yeshua. That is interesting. Why did the Jews stop using the name Yeshua (as they certainly did in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah)? The most likely explanation I can think of is that they "davqa" wanted to avoid the name Yeshua because of Y the Nazarene.

Another thing I learned was that some Jewish sages refer to Y the Nazarene as Yeshua. I thought they only used the word Yeshu.

Of course they are wrong in thinking that the idea that Y's name was Yeshua started in the 20th century. Edersheim's book (which they mention) was from 1883 (he was born in 1825, not 1925 obviously), and he gives the name as Jehoshua or Jeshua (using J for a Y sound). I'm sure there were plenty of other writers who attempted to explain the Hebrew root of his name, and of course they would have given the Hebrew form, either Yehoshua or Yeshua. What about Renan for instance?

They reveal their lack of knowledge when they claim that the LXX is not the Septuagint! Don't they know that LXX is simply the conventional abbreviation for the Septuagint?

But what I find most objectionable in that site is their attitude that it is bad of Christians to want to go back to the roots of their faith. They talk as though they want Christians to stay as goy as possible, just so no Jews will be attracted to Christianity! They're trying to dictate to us that we have to call Yeshua Jesus!

Anyway, I think it's an interesting question why the Septuagint uses Iesous (from yod-shin-vav-`ayin) where the Masoretic text has yod-he-vav-shin-`ayin with vowel pointing to give Yehoshua. There are a couple questions here: why did the Masoretes point it like that instead of the more natural Yehoshea`, and which variant of the consonants is original. (There are many cases where the LXX contains a translation of the original text, and the Masoretic text is corrupt, but most religious Jews of course will never admit that.)

By the way, are you aware that on the Hebrew Wikipedia, it says that his name was Yeshua?

One other thing--the Syriac Bible I was referring to was the Old Syriac version. The Peshitta is from a bit later.

I will try to get around to changing the article a bit, unless you do.

EricK 3 July 2005 18:24 (UTC)

Hi Eric, I'm not trying to prove that his name wasn't Yeshua, I'm trying to keep things neutral, it is simply not the case that it is known with certainty that his name was Yeshua. His parents for all we know could have come from a majority Greek speaking community, such communities existed already under the Ptolemies and Greek eventually became the dominant language, so he might have been named Iesous from the word go. Yehoshua is also a very likely possibility and since we don't have any examples of people named Yeshua already from the Hasmonean period it makes Yeshua the least likely candidate. I added the external link because it has a very good summary of the data. It also ultimately argues that it is unknown what his name was, not that it was definitely not Yeshua. The dogmatic usage of Yeshua is indeed a farely modern thing. Feel free to add links that give alternative views. Also bear in mind that not everyone believes that there was an historical Jesus and they have some pretty good arguments to show that at least such a view is not merely denial but based on scholarly analysis of the evidence, so arguments that he spoke Aramaic are within the perspective of an historical Jesus and should be qualified as such. Regarding the Peshitta, my understanding is that all Syriac translations are called "Peshitta"? As the article on the Peshitta points out it has its beginnings in the 2nd century, but feel free to change the article if this is incorrect usage of the term. Kuratowski's Ghost 3 July 2005 20:00 (UTC)

Hello, Ghost. I made a bunch of changes on the Yeshua article. Please do not revert them. I can support everything I say. The references you have found are interesting, but not scholarly, and very polemical and biased.

In my opinion, this article is getting too long and argumentative. In a few places, instead of deleting what you wrote I added a short rebuttal. (I can give you more explanation on whatever you want.) But the result is that the article is getting unwieldy.

EricK 5 July 2005 07:49 (UTC)

Hi Eric, I recommend using the Talk page for the Yeshua article for discussing the article instead of my user talk page as I am sure that there are many many people who are interested in following the discussion. I copied most of the above to the Yeshua talk page and also invited Mustafaa (the resident Semitic languages expert) to comment and he also drew Garzo' (resident Aramaic expert) to the article. Kuratowski's Ghost 5 July 2005 09:58 (UTC)

[edit] Doubling

You seem to have duplicated all the sections of Talk:History of ancient Israel and Judah. I tried for the last 30 minutes to fix it, but my system at home has trouble editing large pages, and I've failed. Could I ask you to please fix this? Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk July 4, 2005 18:30 (UTC)

[edit] South African Wikipedians

Hi Kuratowski's Ghost

A belated welcome to Wikipedia. There is a list of South African Wikipedians at Wikipedia:Wikipedians/South Africa. --Jcw69 6 July 2005 06:33 (UTC)

Well I haven't really been involved in editing the Apartheid article so I don't know if I should be voting. I've put in a comment that I don't agree with either proposed wording. Kuratowski's Ghost 6 July 2005 16:14 (UTC)

[edit] Talk: Palestine

KG - Thank you for your response on Talk: Palestine. Would you have any references for me? (I am not trying to challenge you, rather I'd like to educate myself).

The Encyclopedia Judaica has fairly good articles on the Philistines and Jebusites. (Not to be confused with the 1910 Jewish Encyclopedia which is notoriously outdated.) Kuratowski's Ghost 9 July 2005 11:18 (UTC)

BTW, I had a look at your self description. You are someone I'd be happy to know. I hope to hear from you soon! --Philopedia 7 July 2005 17:20 (UTC)

[edit] Ritual Decalogue

I'm currently having a dispute with another editor about this page; your input would be welcome. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for Deletion

Hi, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ritual Decalogue. Thank you. IZAK 09:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PoDeCo

Hi. Just popping by to say I agree with your postdeconstructionist philosophy as you've defined it on the user page. Needs a snappy abbreviation, though, PoDeCo would work. Fits on a bumper sticker. --Christofurio 14:05, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli West Bank barrier

If possible, would you mind taking a look at my current disagreement with AladdinSE there? Thx. Jayjg (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dhimmi and Ger Toshav

Please see User:Heraclius latest edits pointing the articles to each other. Jayjg (talk) 00:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yeshua

You might want to review the latest edits there. Cheers. Jayjg (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brook of Egypt

I have some comments on the current state of this article of yours at page Talk:Brook of Egypt AnonMoos 13:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

You violated the three-revert rule and may be blocked. mikka (t) 15:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

<Uncivil ASCII art removed> Kuratowski's Ghost 16:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

You've been blocked from editing Wikipedia for 24 hours for violating the three revert rule, as well as for your immature and rude response to Scimitar. You're welcome to continue editing when the block expires, but please remember the Wikipedia:Three revert rule and Wikipedia:Civility. Rhobite 16:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Low tolerance levels following the latest murder of my people in their historical homeland by those wishing to ethnically cleanse them. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
That's your opinion, and it's a valid one, but it may not be appropriate for the article. In the future it would be best to refrain from revert warring and allow talk page discussions to proceed. Just to let you know, if you had agreed to stop reverting or explained that you weren't aware of the rule, I wouldn't have blocked you. Part of the reason I blocked you was your rude response to Scimitar. Wikipedia requires civility, even when dealing with those we disagree with. Rhobite 01:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish South African history

Hi, could you please help with more information for Jewish South African history. Thanks. IZAK 10:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions for articles on Jews

As there is a great deal of inconsistency in the naming of articles about Jews, I have proposed that they be made consistent. I'd appreciate it if you could commment on this here: Template_talk:Jew#Name_of_articles_on_Jews. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Location of Jerusalem Temple

Hello: See Location of Jerusalem Temple? It can and should -- after some good editing for removal of "fluff" -- be easily merged into the main article at Temple in Jerusalem. I have indicated that on the former's page. IZAK 11:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ezekiel 38-39 War

What do you make of this: Ezekiel 38-39 War??? IZAK 15:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Mormon_jew

Looking at a new article called Groups Exiled from Judaism, and not quite sure what to make of it, I was shocked to see that the well-used Template:Jew has now been "taken-over" by a pro-Mormon user and a new similar-looking Template:Mormon_jew is now being utilised. This Mormon template plagiarises and makes confusing use of the original Template:Jew. The Mormon template must be radically changed ASAP. Your attention is needed. Perhaps we should follow official channels too. Thank you. IZAK 16:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Couple of items

Hi KG. First, I though you might be interested in the article South African Jews. Second, would you mind having a look at a discussion going on at Talk:Martin_Luther#The_relationship_between_Luther_and_the_Jewish_people_is_the_subject_of_much_controversy. The article currently has a brief summary of a larger article, Martin Luther and Antisemitism, but it appears to me that several editors are trying to either whitewash the contents of the summary, or remove any summary at all, on various grounds which I see as spurious (e.g. we can't quote from works because that might be a copyright violation, or we shouldn't summarize at all because that will increase interest in the sub-article). I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 18:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waterfall model

Hey, I've added some stuff to Waterfall model to try and explain the reasoning behind the model, what it actually is and to clarify its faults for those who haven't heard this stuff before. Can you please review my changes? I'd really appreciate it, thanks.

I also notice that you seem to like Einsturzende Neubauten and dislike post-modernism. Nice.  ;D

GeorgeBills 04:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for your vote on my RfA! :-p

Hey Kuratowski's Ghost! Thanks for your support on my RfA. The final outcome was (57/4/3), so I am now an administrator. If you need help, have a question, or just want to chat (or if I get out of line!), please don't hesitate to let me know! Again, thanks! :D

Tomertalk

[edit] You might be interested in this

Talk:Jesus#VOTE: BC/AD vs BCE/CE Jayjg (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Land of Israel

If you have time, could you comment on my suggestion here ?--Sjsilverman 17:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicates of: Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Hi: The following four articles (lists actually) have duplicate articles that need to be merged into them. See the "merged into" notices on:

  1. Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2000 (has three duplicates);
  2. Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2001 (has one duplicate);
  3. Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2002 (has two duplicates);
  4. Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2003 (has two duplicates).

Thanks for looking into this. IZAK 13:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV ?

I wonder if you took a look at this article: Nakba.

I think it is a big failure (over years) in Wkipedia NPOV policy.

Zeq 09:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South African English

Hey, you removed most of the additions I made to this article! How come? I read your comments, and that's cool if they're not supposed to be community-specific but some of them were generally South African. Al, Joziboy

Its very confusing for a non-South African to tell the difference between mainstream differences and group specific slang. I have made a separate article for SA slang. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in my (English-speaking) family muti is generally used, but hey, doesn't matter. :-) JackyR 16:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

In both the English and Afrikaans sides of my family, muti was used to mean medicine. Until I was educated, I thought it was spelt mooty, and I also thought it's etymology was European.

[edit] Interior algebras

Thanks for clarifying the article on Interior_algebra. BTW, is your PhD thesis available online? --Ott2 17:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy to put it online but it is in T3 format (old software from McKichan before Scientific Word) and I have been unable to find a copy of T3 that I would need to render it as PDF or convert to LaTeX. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I now have my copy of T3 temporarily running on an old 486, version 2.3 which introduced the TeX converter. (A later version might have refined the process, but this is the most recent version I have.) The first step is to use DOS Export to get the file out of the .T3V into a .T3 file (specify CONVERT.CNV as the converter). Then one runs T3TOTEX.BAT which seems to be standalone from the main T3 installation to generate a TeX file. IIRC, lots of work is then required to get this to look reasonable but at least it's a start and avoids having to retype the text and formulas. I'd be happy to take a shot at converting your thesis: for my email address think back to your UA class of 1988 and use Google. --Ott2 21:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew name of Jesus

KG, there's a new editor on the Jesus page who insists he knows what Jesus' Hebrew name was, and that it must be inserted in the article. Would you mind taking a look? Talk:Jesus#Hebrew_name_of_Yehoshua_or_Yeshua Jayjg (talk) 17:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Your knowledge and expertise in this area would be greatly appreciated. Jayjg (talk) 22:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, will get to it as soon as I have the time. Kuratowski's Ghost 08:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbophobia

Your opinion would be appreciated here regarding the non-deletion of the article Serbophobia. Thanks, Asterion 20:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zadil tampers with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

Hi: Could you please take a look at what User:Zadil has been up to in the Rabbi Ovadia Yosef article. Thanks. IZAK 12:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yeshua article

User:Haldrik appears to be putting in some personal POV in the Yeshua article. Would you mind taking a look? Jayjg (talk) 17:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jewish Defense League

Is it true the league was heavily criticised then? If they did indeed defend the Goldstein massacre then it should be in there.

Since statements made about Goldstein are barely significant to the history of the JDL it should not take up a huge dramatic section of the article. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Also ... I fear that you are coming forth as a maximilist as you said... I fear you are out to defend Bible stuff simply because 'it is written' in the Gospels. There is very lttle evidence supporting the Bibles portrayal of Jesus. As for Jehoshua Ben-Pandira etc..this maximilist slant of yours seems similar to Creationists hypocritically trying to argue that evolution doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny even tho creationism is ENTIRELY suffering from that very lack of evidence. -- max rspct leave a message 17:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No idea what you are on about since on the subject of the Gospels I have views similar to Earl Doherty based on the what early Christian texts say including all those dismissed as herectical and apocryphal. I am against pseudo-science, syllogistic fallacies and half-truths in Biblical criticism e.g. the stuff discussed in Book of Esther trying to link Esther to pagan mythology. My problem with Massey is that he assumes without foundation that "Yeshu" is short for "Yehoshua" and that all the references to "Yeshu" in the Talmud are one individual and also misses (like many others) that the equation of ben-Pandera with ben-Stada may simply be "rhetorical" etc etc. Kuratowski's Ghost 12:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming article Jew to plural

Hi:

In looking back over the discussion at Talk:Jew I noticed that you had previously written about using the plural form "Jews" (or "Jewish people") for the article title. Someone recently added a poll on possible name change. Please take a look. I'm in support of the move for the sake of consistency with other "group" names, and have attempted to provide examples from List of ethnic groups; some have come out strongly against it. Perhaps you have a different take that would be appropriate, and might like to comment. Thanks! —LeflymanTalk 19:04, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South African English

Hi, I was checking the history and I saw you removed SAE words from the list. We at school (Eastern Cape) always had L.O. (not PT), the student got a stiffie to put data on (not a floppy) and were not allowed to smoke let alone throw their stompies on the floor. We were told to shush and telling nasty jokes made the teachers say: 'sis man!'. Since we wore a uniform we never wore tackies. Howzit and izzit, braai etc. are off course the MOST IMPORTANT words, all these words are used by a majority of the people in SA (people from all ages). I don't see how you could delete such valuable information :O Sεrvιεи | T@lk page 20:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

PS: the 'swearwords' are not very fit for an encyclopedia, I agree.

Hi, I removed the list from the article South African English because they are covered in List of lexical differences in South African English and List of South African slang words. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amalek article

How was my treatment of the Documentary Hypothesis not neutral? I did not make any POV statements regarding it; I only stated what the hypothesis posits. Keep in mind that it does happen to be the majority view among Bible scholars regarding the composition of the Torah, so disclaimers to the effect of "this is only a theory" are not needed.--Rob117 03:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passover and Christianity

Hi Kuratowski, I hope you had a great Pesach!: Please see the new discussions, and add your views, at Talk:Passover#Passover in the Christian tradition, again. Thank you. IZAK 04:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The happy uninformed

Hi Mr Ghost. I've just added my 2 cents (again) to The Bible and history, a different flavor this time. I have not always given my sources. Personally I find digging up the (easy to be found) sources I use, half the fun and prefer for the reader to find these for themselves. Knowledge earned always being of a greater value than knowledge given. I find the whole maximalists and minimalsit thing very amusing. From their convictions one would think each side has a time machine, or a magic crystal ball; which they don't. See what you think. 3 May 2006 User:Kazuba Thanks Mr. Ghost 4 May 2006 User:Kazuba

Been very busy at work, will try look quickly. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avvites in Genesis

Where? I've read Genesis from cover-to-cover; they are not mentioned, nor are they associated with the Philistines in any biblical book. Archaeologist Amihai Mazar, who leans toward the so-called "maximalist" (big misnomer) position, regards their appearance in Genesis as an anachronism.

You seem to have a fairly cursory view of the state of the field in biblical studies. I don't claim to be an expert, but reading about it is a hobby of mine and I plan to major in the field so I read a lot about it. You seem to be interested as well so a subscription to Biblical Archaeology Review would probably interest you. You also might like the PDFs you can link to here.--Rob117 21:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Deuteronomy 2:23 is the place to look, KJV probably says Avvim. The camel stuff is a tired old argument that has been overturned long ago see for example [3] or [4] Kuratowski's Ghost 21:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The articles you linked to are deliberatly apologetic; the evidence is circumstancial, as even halfway acknowledged by the second one. I have no particular view on when the camel was domesticated (the early date, IMO, has its merits), but the fact is that the standard cited date is still the late second millenium BC, and I provided mainstream sources. Using Christian apologetic sites as sources is not really the best thing to do.

"Apologetics" if you look it up means "reasoned arguments" so this sort of dismissal is nonsense. The articles refer to scholarly works so dismissing them as "apologetics" is really lame. I come from a science background where arguments are judged on their own merit not on whether the person making the argument is a clergyman instead of a member of a humanities faculty at a university. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

As for the Avvites, the context of the passage reveals that Moses is referring to an event from long ago, not his own time. The Cretans displacing the Avvites is mentioned in connection with the Ammonites displacing the Rephaim and the Edomites displacing the Horites, both of which are meant to have occured long before Moses' time, as the Wilderness story has Edom and Ammon as established kingdoms. The Philistines coming from Crete is historically true; the biblical authors just appear to have gotten the date wrong- there is no reason to believe the Philistines of Abraham's time are meant to be the Avvites, or else the text would have called them Avvites, not Philistines. I've never heard the Avvite argument before either, so where did you get it from?--Rob117 22:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Heard it first when studying the passage in highschool plus it is clear from the contextual evidence - the displacement of the Avvites by the Caphtorites as you say is mentioned together with the Ammonites displacing the Rephaim. No date is given for this but obviously it only occurred once the Ammonites had emerged as a nation which is around the same time as the emergence of the Israelites. Remember the Ammonites are traditionally descended from Lot and weren't around at the time of Abraham - hence the events described would not have occurred yet, placing Abraham prior to these events in particular prior to the displacement of the Avvites, ergo the Philistines of his day were logically still the earlier Avvites not Caphtorites.
BTW identification of Caphtor with Crete is a whole can of worms in its own right. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Nothing in the passage says the displacements all happened at the same time. As it stands it's original research, if you came up with it yourself; I'm just citing what I read in peer-reviewed articles and books by archaeologists. --Rob117 04:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The plain reading of a text is hardly original research. Kuratowski's Ghost 08:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the Caphtor-Crete connection is solid etymologically; Caphtor is connected to the Egyptian word Keftiu, which was used for Crete, which archaeologically has been identified as the Philistine homeland.--Rob117 01:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Not so solid at all, Keftiu has not been identified with certainty as Crete nor is it clear that if its identical to Caphtor even if it does mean Crete. Traditional understanding is that it is Damietta in Egypt with accompanying suggestions that it is related to the word Coptic. Another suggestion has been Cyprus. The word was also often translated Cappadocia although it is not clear if this was intended to refer to the Cappadocia in eastern Anatolia. Kuratowski's Ghost 08:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Traditions (Midrashic? Talmudic? Targumic? Patristic?) from a millenium after the text was written are not always reliable.--Rob117 04:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

My main problem here is that you're acting as if your interpretation is the only valid one, and asking me to dismiss what I've read in countless peer-reviewed publications because of your interpretation of a certain verse in a completely different book of the Bible.--Rob117 04:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

No I'm asking you to have an open mind instead of being dogmatic about the one interpretation that Caphtor is Crete which remains plausible but is far from proven with certainty. Interpretation as Cyprus or suggestion of connection with Copt- are modern conjectures. Reference to it as Cappadocia is found in Josephus and if I'm not mistaken the Vulgate translation. Identificaton with Damietta is mentioned in a mediaeval travel text in a matter of fact manner, don't know what you are on about Talmud and Midrash which have no relevance to the issue. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the camel and Avvites issues on the "your interpretation" thing, not the Caphtor one. Anyway, Josephus, the earliest text you mentioned, is still writing almost a millenium after the biblical text was written.

My comments about the Targum, Midrash, Talmud, and Church Fathers were stated out of the impression that you were drawing on traditional theology. While these sources are sometimes accurate, by the time they were written the Bible had been going through centuries of progressive reinterpretation. Hebrew was no longer a vernacular language, so the meaning of some words was forgotten. Place-names had changed, and were sometimes confused with similar-sounding but unrelated names- for example, Gomer, which we now know from Assyrian records was the Semitic term for the Cimmerians (Gomer in Hebrew = Gimmeru in Akkadian), was thought by medieval exegetes to refer to Germany. Josephus identifies Ophir with India, but most modern authors think it was somewhere in South Arabia or the Horn of Africa. Togarma, most likely a reference to the Armenians, was identified in the nineteenth century with the Turks.--Rob117 20:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yeshu and Jehoshua Ben-Pandira

So, is it time to merge Jehoshua Ben-Pandira into Yeshu? Obviously that little stub of Massey's view belongs in the article. Just let me know when you're ready for it to happen. Jayjg (talk) 03:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

go for it :) Kuratowski's Ghost 08:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Get ready... Jayjg (talk) 22:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bible and History

Did some work on the historical accuracy and construction of the New Testament. May have got off the track. Like to share my knowledge. Please be kind enough to check me out. User:Kazuba 6 May 2006

[edit] Mediation for article Kach_and_Kahane_Chai

Hi, User Black Butterfly has asked for mediation of a discussion about the above article, over the wording of a specific sentence. I have offered to mediate the discussion. If you do not wish me to mediate this for any reason then let me know, otherwise please [post you acceptance either on the articles talk page or on the mediation page (both of wich I posted on). Thanks --Tmorton166 12:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] trying to contact you

I'm not sure how to email you directly, but I thought you'd like my site Balashon and particularly this new article that references one of your Wikipedia entries.

My contact info is on the site if you'd like to discuss it.

[edit] Fiction in the Bible

Dear Mr. Ghost, Today we have a pretty good idea that the Bible is a mixture of different kinds of literature and forms. How much of what is here and there remains unsettled and will probably remain so. Our digging into the remote, ancient ill-documented past has limits. The boundaries of epic, legend , myth, fiction and history in sacred traditions are not easily determined with ancient cultures and vanished people. We know from the 19th century discovery of the religious epic of Gesar the Savior of Tibet, here the truth of the story is more important than its construction. The oral story tellers have asked us "Why would anyone want to tell a story that is not true?" For them fiction does not exist as it does in the West. I have a suspicion, with some physical evidence that still exists, that some tellers of the Biblical stories saw things the same way. It is the lesson from the story that is of the most importance, not how the story is formed. This would explain why different versions of the same story, an example being a comparison between the books of Kings and the books of Chronicles, and in other places in the Bible, were all preserved, even though they contradicted one another. In their time and culture it just didn't matter. Critical history, which begins in the middle ages, had yet to be invented and present a value. The Biblical stories are centered on teaching man's relationship to God and one another. This is their truth. This will not be found by digging up old ruins and collecting ancient texts to find out what really happened.User:Kazuba26 May 2006

[edit] New "Israeli apartheid" article

Hi Kuratowski: Vigorous editing and debate is taking place at Israeli apartheid (phrase). Please take a look at it and add your comments. Thanks a lot. IZAK 21:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South African English

Thanks for fixing up that crap last night. Whoever wrote that part of the article has some serious issues they need to deal with ("pidgin"?). Out of curiosity, what was the title/subject of your Mathematics PhD thesis? What would you be using to create dance music (Cubase, Reason, Sonar...)? My weapon of choice is Fl Studio, but I seem to have the same problem as you! Many Wikipedia articles on music production are also quite bad, btw. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

My thesis was on Interior Algebras taking another look at how concepts in Topology can be formulated in universal algebra, something which was the original motivation behind interior algebras but which was neglected after the initial work in the 1940s.
I use Cakewalk, FL studio and ACID. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Cakewalk? The old MIDI version!? That's torture. DaFroot is great even if Gol is an arrogant idiot and Image-Line seems near sighted (eg their laughable PDC implementation), but that's another issue entirely... Still having problems converting your thesis to PDF? Use PDFCreator [5]. It installs itself as a printer and creates PDF files when you print to it in any Windows program. What languages do you use at work? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Arabism is a stupid categorization?

Hi Kuratowski's Ghost. I noticed you removed the category Category:Anti-Arabism from the Jewish Defense League article. I was wondering why you considered this to be a stupid characterization? While, as I understand it, JDL was oriented towards protecting Jewish interests is unfortunately morphed into an organization that attacked or planned attacks against Arabs - it is closely related to the Kahanism ideology and if you read that article you'll see that they in particular target Arabs, even though they define it themselves as targeting non-Jews. I'll add the category for now. Best. --Ben Houston 23:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand there is known case where JDL has helped Arabs .... Kuratowski's Ghost 09:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Helped them do what? Leave Israel?Homey 22:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arabian Nights and Bible stories

Hi Mr. Ghost, Take another look. According to my dictionary analogies can be similarities between things otherwise dissimilar. I clarified it this time. User:Kazuba 3 Jun 2006

[edit] ADL on Jewish Defense League

Here is what the ADL says about them [6]. Also see the links on the right hand side. --Ben Houston 01:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to contact you

Dear Kuratowski's Ghost, could I contact you in private (email, chat, whatever you prefer) ? I have many questions about ancient Israel and after having read a lot of articles online and offline, I would like to discuss it with someone like you (a "well informed maximalist" is allow me to give this title !).

NB : I am not a historian neither a student.

Thanks a lot for your writings in Wikipedia.

Squallgreg 20:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, you can email me via wikipedia (use the "E-mail this user" link). Kuratowski's Ghost 21:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Falsifying quotations

You might not agree with Tutu but you have no right to alter his words and falsify his quotation. Homey 13:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry didn't notice that the entire paragraph was the quote. I only noticed Tutu's glaring half-truths (hey what do you expect from someone who wins the Nobel prize for making excuses for burning people alive). Kuratowski's Ghost 18:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Parroting the line of the former apartheid South African government is not a very smart way of dissuading people that there's nothing in common between Israel and apartheid. Homey 18:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Repeating particularly obvious lies about Israel will not convince people that there is. Kuratowski's Ghost 18:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI David Ben Gurion did not practice Judaism and considered himself a Marxist revolutionary. What, exactly, is your point?Homey 18:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I didn't practice Judaism and called myself a Marxist revolutionary until the ANC's policy of burning people alive completely disillusioned me. My point is that Ozinsky and Kasrils don't consider themselves to be Jews and their views differ radically from those of South African Jews thus Tutu's statements are very misleading as they create the false impression that Kasrils and Ozinsky are Jewish as opposed to being merely of Jewish descent and that their views are in some way representative of South African Jews when they are instead representative of radical South African Marxist revolutionaries. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Would Hitler have considered Kasrils and Ozinsky Jewish? In any case, you are making an assumption about how they see themselves.Homey 00:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No I'm basing it on statements where they prefered to call themselves "South Africans of Jewish origin", not "Jewish". Kuratowski's Ghost 08:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarify

I edited the first paragraph of Shekel trying to explain the various types when it was used as money before coins gradually became invented as best I could. If you think it is my intention to mislead readers you are wrong. It is my intention to purely inform readers. I am just intrigued by things that have not been touched on that I think have value but are not there. For example: that the use of a shekel may set up a time; I don't care what time, but I try to be accurate, or the escape from Eygpt begins during the night. Why at night? I do not know; I cannot mind read, but I have a hunch you find these things upsetting or meaningless. I believe unfinished puzzles can become clearer by adding more correct pieces even if they do not complete the puzzle. User:Kazuba 14 July 06

[edit] Need to re-design the article "List of Biblical figures identified in extra-Biblical sources"

In recognition of your diligent work on this fledgling article from the very beginning, Mr. Kuratowski's Ghost, I would like to at least describe to you the thorough re-design I would like to propose before doing anything about it. Here are a few points that come to mind at _prima vista_:

1. Your separation of Biblical figures who are unambiguously identified in contemporary sources from those who are only tentatively identified shows sensitivity to the gradations of strength or weakness of such identifications and _should_be_preserved_.

2. Provenanced materials excavated under controlled conditions must be treated separately from unprovenanced materials that have appeared on the antiquities market. This is simply to separate materials whose authenticity is generally beyond reproach from materials whose authenticity is unknown, i.e., potential forgeries. Possible forgery of unprovenanced materials has been arguably the hottest issue surrounding the study of inscriptions since about late 2002 or early 2003, with the filing of lawsuits against antiquities dealers in Israel. Of course, this issue also extends to fakery, i.e., modern alteration of ancient materials such as the modern inscribing of ancient-looking letters on a genuinely ancient potsherd to create a faked ostracon. (See the article that accepts the "three shekels" ostracon in _Biblical Archaeology Review_ (ca. 2002?), followed by the article on it in _Israel Exploration Journal_ in early 2005, which includes technical analysis demonstrating it to be faked.)

3. While the article still includes names that have not yet been placed into the appropriate category, such names should be listed (with their accompanying data) in a "yet to be classified" section, rather than left sitting in the list of the "unambiguously identified." It was easy to spot some that certainly do not meet the requirements of this category, e.g., Jezebel, King Ahab's queen, in an unprovenanced, carved stone seal that contains only the name, apparently without the initial _aleph_ in the Biblical spelling (unless it was chipped off). In the first place, it is relatively easy to forge a stone seal, and then, even if it were shown to be authentic, the name alone is insufficient evidence to establish an identification. There is no other identifying information beyond that found in the fact that it is a scaraboid and whatever can be learned from the letter shapes (approximate date and "nationality").

I have spent more than a decade working to evaluate potential identifications of Biblical figures in Hebrew, Aramaic, Ammonite, Moabite, and other inscriptions, using the original languages and the scripts found on the inscriptions themselves, as photographed or sketched, so I hope you will take this suggestion seriously (see under "Mykytiuk" in the "For further reading" section of the article on the "Mesha Stele") If I had not done this homework, I would probably have remained interested but silent. I sense that it might be against the Wiki-rules to mention my homework, but I mention it only to insure a serious hearing, rather than to deny that to anyone else. Lawrencemykytiuk 00:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article on terrorism

You may find the article Terrorists of Pakistani origin interesting. It may be deleted soon in perhaps a few hours.

If you have any views on having such articles on Wikipedia, please do share them at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Terrorists_of_Pakistani_origin

--Robcotton 01:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph's Tomb

It seems that the text of this article was copied from [7] when you created it. Are you aware of the current copyright status of that material? It would be helpful if you would help shed some light on this issue at Talk:Joseph's Tomb. thanks --Musaabdulrashid 10:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't make false accusations

The article you cite is marked copyright 2006 yet the Wikipedia article was created in 2005. The original article was based on public domain text distributed by email but was not identical to the entire text. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aram

I just reverted your edits to Aram. I did not find any reference in the chapter you mentioned. It may be that Aram and Ashur refer to the ancestors of the Aramaeans and Assyrians respectively, but it is clear that those people lived in the areas referred to Aram and Ashur. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 11:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't look hard enough. It calls the subjects of Chushan (i.e. the king of Aram Naharaim according to the account in Judges that Josephus is referring to) as "Assyrians". Kuratowski's Ghost 13:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I find that quite far-fetched. Josephus writes that Chushan is the king of the Assyrians. In Judges, it says that Chushan is king of Aram Naharaim. From this, I would not draw the conclusion that Josephus calls the inhabitants of Aram "Assyrians", especially not if in the chapter I had cited, he calls the children of Aram "Aramites, whom the Greeks call Syrians". For it is a well-known fact that the inhabitants of what the Greeks called Syria, were called Aramaeans before their conversion to Christianity. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 14:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Chushan was king of Aram Naharaim, Josephus calls his subjects Assyrians its pretty clear and again you don't seem to understand that Aram Naharaim is not the same as Aram. Kuratowski's Ghost 15:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious reactions to same-sex marriage in South Africa

Hi Kuratowski's Ghost, Shavua Tov: Hope all is well. Since you are familiar with South Africa, I was curious if you could look into the discussion surrounding the opposition of organized religious movements to Same-sex marriage in South Africa, see Talk:Same-sex marriage in South Africa#Same-sex marriage in South Africa & The Mediation Cabal. More discussion about this subject is now also at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-17 Religious opposition to same-sex marriage in South Africa. If you have any information about what has been happening in South Africa on this subject, your input would be helpful. Thanks for looking into this. Best wishes, IZAK 07:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about the Kebra Nagast

Hi Kuratowski's Ghost. I've been working on the Kebra Nagast article, & am very puzzled about something that dates back to the version you wrote. According to that version, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa published a translation of this work in 1528 -- about the same time that the first reliable reports about that country had at last reached into Europe. Further, I've querried not only the online catalogs of the U.S. Library of Congress & the British Library, but also World Cat, a database for InterLibrary Loan searches, & not one returns a hit for this translation. A query on the title -- Historia de las cosas de Etiopía only returns the account of Francisco Alvares, the Portuguese priest who published the first account of Ethiopia in a European language. At this point, I'm wondering if there wasn't a mistake somewhere & would like to know if you can provide a source for this statement. Thanks. -- llywrch 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing of Yam article

Yam means sea, in Ugarit inscriptions the divinity was called Ya'a and he was god of both the Sea (Yam) and the rivers (Nahar). Jean Bottero in Bottero, Jean (2004) "Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia" (University Of Chicago Press) ISBN 0-226-06718-1, shows how in Ebla Ea became Yah, a divinity precursor to Yahweh. As a result I am reversing your edits here. John D. Croft 16:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The reading of Yah in the Ebla texts has been rejected more recently [8]. Kuratowski's Ghost 18:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


Bottero's reading has been recently supported by such scholars as Mark Smith ("The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel" and "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts"), Catherine Keller and others. It represents an important alternative point of view and to delete references to it, with only vague unreferenced statements "rejection more recently" about represents a specific POV error. If it has been rejected by some writers they need to be cited, not just delete the alternative research. John D. Croft 23:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The authors you cite represent a fairly old view which is not accepted by the mainstream. Trying to present them as mainstream is POV bias. The majority view on the origin of the name YHWH is that it is from the root meaning "to be" and that it has no connection to Ea, the form Yah being a late form resulting from shortening. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The argument that Yah is a late form is not anywhere near "mainstream", and there is no evidence to support it. The view that Yahweh comes from the verb "to be", derives from the Proto-Semetic verb *hyy, meaning "Life". It is suggested that E'A, meaning "House of Water" in Sumerian, is also etymologically linked to the same Semitic root in Akkadian. The use of the word "mainstream" in the absence of polling results is a POV view. I have attempted to correct this through the non POV language of "many", "others", "some" etc, and give citations where possible. Given these changes, are we coming any closer to consensus? Regards John D. Croft 03:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The evidence for the name YHWH is that the earliest undisputed form (e.g. on the Moabite stone) has the full letters y-h-w-h and only later do we get progressively shorter forms yahu, yah, yeho, yo. There is no use of "Yaw" for YHWH. The verb is not the same as that for "life" which has the pharyngeal H, the roor is hyh with ordinary glottal h meaning "to be". Kuratowski's Ghost 10:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Lets move discussion to the Yam talk page. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never added anything to a wikipedia talk page so I have no idea what I am doing...I just couldn't find the email link, and I wanted to ask a question. What are your thoughts about the Documentary Hypothesis in general, and the possibility of some (or all) of the Pentateuch having been written by Moses? I know Hoffmeier and Kitchen defend a rather traditional view here. Jonathan207.101.74.162 19:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a high opinion of the documentary hypothesis. Like much 19th century / early 20th century Biblical criticism it does not meet the standards of scientific rigor. It wasn't derived out of a need for an explanation as a scientific explanation should be, but instead out of a desire to deliberately reject known explanations. The way in which it claims the Torah was composed is not a known manner in which other books have ever been composed. The justifications for its claims are illogical (the example I always use is a Star Trek book in which the same person is called Captain, Jim, James T. etc - nobody would suggest that this means that the book must have been woven together from 3 different books one with a Captain, one with Jim and one with James T, yet this is "logic" used to justify the DH. Just using common sense the Torah covers all Jewish history from legends of the creation to the time when the Israelites had returned to Canaan without anything further and so the sensible conclusion is that it was written at that period. Tradition indeed says it was started by Moses and completed by Joshua which indeed places it in that period. Tradition also recognizes that there was some later redactions in the days of Hezekiah and later Ezra. There is no good reason to reject any of this, all the arguments that it couldn't have been written this way are either deliberately deceptive or simply based on misunderstanding (like ignoring the tradition that Joshua completed the Torah after Moses died), there is no hard argument that has stood up to criticism. I reckon without any convincing arguments against the traditions they should be seriously considered and indeed some highly revised versions of the DH have come full circle and have ended up saying virtually the same thing that tradition says. Kuratowski's Ghost 20:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

But why is it then that nobody really knowledgeable that I have read, except for Evangelical Christians, seems to take the position that you suggest? I am assuming from your profile that you are not personally religious, yet you adopt a view that I have not seen any secular Biblical scholar embrace. Are all the other secularists biased? Is there anyone else who shares your view? Jonathan 216.49.76.3 22:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I know many people who aren't particularly religious who share my views, typically people with a natural science background who do not have a high opinion of the humanities especially when the latter pretends to be scientific. Kuratowski's Ghost 20:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you think about the anachronisms, such as the list of Edomite Kings in Genesis, etc?

Its not clear if it is indeed an anachronism assuming Mosaic authorship of the verse. The word for king "melech" could mean any sort of ruler of a people and it is possible that Moses could have considered himself to be the first "melech" of the Israelites. Either way there is nothing that contradicts the traditional origin of the Torah which recognizes a redaction as late as Ezra; there is no reason to find fault with the view that such comments are part of Ezra's redaction.

Also, doesn't acceptance of Mosaic authorship entail acceptance of at least the basic elements of the account as historical? Meaning that, despite the lack of archaeological evidence, you recognize the essential historicity of the Exodus, Wilderness and Conquest-by-Joshua traditions? Jonathan 207.101.74.162 16:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The reality is that it is the only historical tradition regarding the early Israelites and that there is no reason to reject it any more than any other early historical writings. Arguing that there is no archaeological evidence is irrational, archaeology only finds a few things that have been preserved by chance. How much archaeological evidence do you have of say Attila the Hun? What archaeological evidence do you expect to find from that era capable of micro-identifying incidents reported in the Bible? Kuratowski's Ghost 17:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Goliath

You deleted my addition in the first paragraph: "(and hence the Christian Old Testament)" Why? Robinson weijman 12:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That can go back, I wanted the POV interpretation and speculation about Nephilim out (that they were giants is only one POV) and the stuff about the sword that wasn't reliably sourced. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the info - I've put it back. Robinson weijman 07:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hasmonean

Thanks for the fixing up at Hasmonean. I have been trying for some time to figure out how they referred to themselves, and never got around to reading the full account in 1/2 Maccabees. Thanks for your contribs; stick around and help me improve it, I'd like to make it a WP:FA! Kaisershatner 18:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There an RfC you might want to comment on

[9] considering your opposition to the sources used. Tiamut 04:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ecclesiastes

Pursuant to your general position regarding the authorship/accuracy of Biblical literature, I am curious as to your view of Ecclesiastes, which is traditionally attributed to Solomon but nowadays considered post-Exilic? RJ

The view that is post-Exilic is the usual modernist bullsh*t along the lines of "its philosphical, everyone knows that only Greek culture was capable of philosophy, therefore its from the Hellenistic period".

The tradition regarding the book is that it was composed by scribe in the court of Hezekiah and there is nothing to discount such a view. Comparison with Phoenician texts suggests that the language of the book is indeed pre-exilic and that the writer spoke a northern dialect. Tradition (and simple common sense from reading it) also says that the main voice in the book represents Solomon as an old man. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Maximalism

What do you think about the numbers recorded in the Torah, especially the implausibly huge figures like 2 million people leaving Egypt? There is no evidence to substantiate an Exodus of that magnitude, and even the Evangelicals who are scholars like Kitchen try to "reinterpret" the numbers to get them down to something reasonable. But if you really believe Moses wrote the Torah then it seems like you'd have to accept those numbers even though they defy credibility. Jonathan
It has been claimed by some that the numbers are implausible based on extreme low end estimates of the population at the time (estimates made by people with an axe to grind with the Bible). There isn't enough evidence to come up with anything more than wild guess for the population, other estimates put the Egyptian population at several million making the figures seem plausible. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names of Jerusalem

You censored my addition regarding the possible Canaanite origin of the word Shalem. This seems extreme to me, considering that the idea already existed in the article (as well as in the Hebrew Wiki) and I was merely adding other Biblical examples (all from other Wikipedia articles). Why is the theory okay for Beit Shemesh (see Wiki for Bet Shemesh) but forbidden for Jerusalem? Even if you have somehow disproved this theory (which I doubt), I think it should at least be mentioned, and you may freely add your rebuttal or criticisms. What happened to freedom of thought? Wouldn't you say blanket censorship of this sort is paternalistic? Why not let the reader judge for himself Yabti, from Jerusalem

Its a old crank idea that was criticized and rejected long ago. Shalim together with Shachar were Ugaritic minor gods representing dusk and dawn and were always invoked together. No mention of these minor gods is found outside Ugarit and moreover the root sh-l-m did not carry the same meaning outside Ugarit. As a rejected idea from modernist pseudo-scholarship it doesn't deserve mention. Moreover the name of the city is not Beth Shalim which is what one would get if it was derived this way. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The name would not necessarily be "Beth Shalim" - see for example the village of "Anathoth" which is surely nameed after the (major) goddess Anat and does not include the term "Bet". In addition, as I understand it Canaanite mythology is generally poorly attested outside Ugarit so part of your answer relies on the famed "Argument From Silence", with all that entails. In any event, I thank you for your speedy response Yabti.

Its not simply an argument from silence as the root sh-l-m is well attested in the region and means "peace" or "whole" and not "dusk" as in the language of Ugarit. The idea that Anathoth is named after Anat is also modernist presumption since the name can be understood to mean simply "answers". Kuratowski's Ghost 00:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I found this discussion interesting, and therefore copied it to the "Talk:Names of Jerusalem" page.Yabti.

[edit] Non-Theistic Jew

What is a non-Theistic Jew? A Deist? Does this mean that the basis of your belief in God is scientific or philosophical rather than religious?

It means I don't believe in a God, well at least not as the term is typically understood. Kuratowski's Ghost 16:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
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