Talk:Kunbi
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[edit] Definitions
I am aware that the Kunbis exist in Goa and in the rest of the Konkan. I am aware that Sharad Pawar, who either claims to be, or for whom it is claimed that he is, a Maratha, is actually a Kunbi.
What I do not know is that Shivaji Bhonsale was one. This is news. Also that the Kunbis are Kshatriyas.
Refer to his Powara page in Marathi. This is about Afjal Khan's fight with Shivaji. In this Powara Afjal calls Shivaji a Kunbi. http://www.powade.com/lyrics/agindas/agindas.pdf
If they are Kshatriyas, then they must be Kshatriyas wherever they exist, which is false, for in Goa they are counted as Shudras, not Chardos or Kshatriyas.
The Bhonsale family history claims descent from a collateral branch of the Chittor royal house forced to take refuge in the south. It was on this basis that the Brahmins agreed to crown Shivaji according to Hindu rituals. According to Hindu law, the Bhonsales were Kshatriyas who had become Shudras because they had failed to perform the Upanayana Samskara for two or more generations. As such, if a member of the related family that had not lost their caste status adopts the lapsees, the lapsee can be reinstated into the Caste system, and this is what was done in Shivaji's case.
The Patels of Gujarat were certainly Kunbis, but it is more precise to define them as a subsection of Kunbis who have effectively transformed themselves and are no longer recognizable as Kunbis. The Patel name, according to the Patel page, developed from the name "Patlik"; but this is false, and that article deliberately confuses Patils and Patels, who are two different groups. The Patels developed as a result of a Hindu reform movement, the Patidar Movement, which transformed them from Shudras to a Kshatriya sub-caste. A more recent example of this is the Swadhyay Movement.
Patel is derived from Patidar; Patil, derived from Patlik, is a village head, similar to Mukhia, Nayak or Chowdhary, titles used in other parts of South Asia.
Just as the Patidar movement did earlier, the Swadhyay movement today Brahminizes those low caste folk who adopt it; they give up meat and fish and become vegetarians, and adopt upper caste rituals, etc. This is caste mobility.
What is "Northern Maharashtra"? It is a label I am incapable of understanding, so I request a definition. When people speak of Maharashtra, they speak of Western Maharashtra, which is an euphemism for the Desh, and they speak of the Konkan & Vidarbha. I have never before encountered a reference to "Northern Maharashtra". It seems as easy to conceive as an "Eastern Chile"!
If it is true that Gurjars or Gujjars are a subsection of the Kunbis, then it must be true where ever the Gujjars are found. But this is evidently not true of Gujjars throughout South Asia, both in Bharat and in Pakistan. Therefore, it cannot be true.
Is there any support for the claim that the Kunbis form 55% of the population, and if so, where exactly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiSceptic (talk • contribs) .
- Be Bold, your argument sounds convincing and you may change the relevant information on Kunbi, Gujjar and Patel. However, I thought that the Caste System in Goa would be almost inexistent because it is predominantly a Roman Catholic state. Also, remove any information that seems to be wrong, or at least not firmly proven, like the 55% of Gujarat being Kunbi. DaGizza Chat (c) 08:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
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- Thank you, DaGizza. I always sign my posts, but here it seems I overlooked doing that. But the article as it stands is so flawed that I do not know how to rewrite it. I do not believe that negative statements, i.e., a denial of the claim that Shivaji Bhonsale was a Kunbi, belongs within an encyclopedic article. I will wait and see for a few days, if old contributors will come up to take up this matter, and if not, I will see what I can do to correct the entry.
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- Regarding Goa, unfortunately, despite having converted to Christianity, and particularly after Portugal became involved more with the War against the Dutch invaders and for independence from Spain, from which time it was no longer as zealous to protect Christians from pagan blandishments, Goans have backslided to various extents in different parts of Goa, but all, as far as I know, backslided into a revival of pagan social practises. I know, for my own parents claimed to be "Brahmins", which for me is anathema as a practising Christian. As a matter of fact, this is an explosive issue in Goa, that has been hushed up, but which sometimes blows up. The last time, the diehard "Gaoncars" of the village of Cuncolim threatened schism when the Parish Priest attempted to make the Parish Council inclusive of Kunbi and other Christians, considered "Shudras". The situation in India, particularly in Tamil Nadu, is far worse. A former Benedictine monk from Shantivanam informed me that the Bishop of Kanyakumari unleashed goons upon a Dalit priest and his independent order of nuns because they would not surrender their land that has gone up in value, and his goons even raped some of the nuns in front of this elderly priest!
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- As for "backsliding", recently, a Hindu, Mangalorean Konkani doctor in the U.K. had taunted me in a list for objecting to paganism, triumphantly pointing out that very many Goan Christians go to the Damodar temple at Zambaulim to pray there. Things have become much worse in the last forty years, due to "Vatican II", with priests and bishops now vying to lead Christians into even further "eclecticism", or more precisely, spiritual adultery.
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- Regards. WikiSceptic 09:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Alternate version
I have created an alternate version of the Kunbi page here: Talk:Kunbi/AltVersion. If there are no objections, after sometime, I will make it (or the improved version) the main page. WikiSceptic 14:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Great article
This is a great article. It has some valuable information in it.
Some suggestions:
1. The term Kunbi is also used in Gujarat (for Patels), its north Indian form is Kurmi.
2. Its Sanskrit form is "Kautumbika". The earliest mention is from Gujarat, in a Buddhist inscription.
3. The term "shudra" is ambiguous. It can be defined in many ways. I am not aware of a definition that will satisfy a majority of the scholars. Thus it should be used only if it can be defined, and if there is a need to use the term.
--Malaiya 19:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Brahmins are Shudras ?
Now days very few Brahmins perform thread ceremony and this mean they are lower than Shudras. Brahmins have started eating meat and travelling abroad, so they become Shudra. Inter caste marriages in Brahmin have picked up and they have turned Shudra. Scholars will surely disagree with the basis of caste system followed in India. As per Geeta a Brahmin is person with knowledge, no desire for wealth & sexual pleasures. Even a Brahmin who practices thread cremony is not a brahmin if does not practice religious cermonies as per books. It seems that a Kunbi does not claim to be not a part of Hindu Culture and therefore they are not Kshtryias, Shudra, Brahmins and Vaniyas....they are Patidars or Kunbi. A kunbi can be Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christian and there are very few kunbis who practice Hindu religions as they used to practice Buddhism after failure of Hindu religion.
[edit] Ancient India & Caste System
From the many wikipedia pages on hindu, jain, buddhist & British Raj in India it seems that Maharashtrian Brahmins have always tried to invent new stories for throwning any powers out. In turn they have destroyed there own existance. Many brahmins are living in poverty. Infact the untouchables in India were educated by Brahmins and now they have too become corrupt. This is very strange and i simply cannot understand what these confused group of Maharashtrian Brahmins are upto.
6 April 11:00AM, Mark
[edit] Kunbis != Kurmis
Kunbis DO NOT equal Kurmis nor do they share a common ethno-cultural heritage. Kunbis were historically accorded the same social status given to Kurmis in North hence the similar names.... It would be better if some Kunbi guy could clarify this for our POV warrior.
अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 
21:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Kunbis and kurmis are same caste. They are present mainly in Maharastra, Gujarat, MP, UP and Bihar. You can refer to some of URLS present in this page. Can you share some of the information that you used to make this statement ?
[edit] VarnaShram Dharma
Before reverting the changes understand the Varnas system well. Do not mix varnas with caste. Most of the anti-Hindu people use caste to defame Hinduism. Hindushudra 18:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
