Talk:Kuching

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Contents

[edit] City Hall

Please don't change Kuching North City Hall to North Kuching City Hall and likewise for the South version. It was correct the first time and was not a typo. It's the official name and spelt that way on their website. Xess 21:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Doesn't Kuching mean "cat" in Malay? It could be mentioned in the article ... --zeno 15:02, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Think the "cat" issue is properly explained now. Think the entire section is lacking a lot though. Anyone else actually a Kuching resident (past or present)? --User:Sojourner 02:22, 2 Aug 2005 (GMT)

[edit] PoV

The article contains a fair bit of interesting information, but it's hardly encyclopaedic. Anyone with more time on their hands than me want to go through and take out the conversational style? Preferably someone with some pre-knowledge of the place (I'm only visiting the page because the modern Delpic games are being held there right now) sheridan 11:23, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Why not. I could be of help since I'm a resident of the city. But I don't have the time. Matthew A. Lockhart 13:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I am a kuching resident. The actual word for cat in malay is "Kucing". There are few stories on the name Kuching came about. Some say the word actually means "market" in another dialect.

"Despite being the 7th largest city in Malaysia, Kuching still maintains a 'small town' feel. However, Sarawakians always refer Kuching as a "big and lively city" and can be well compared with the Malaysia's federal capital, Kuala Lumpur. Most Non-Sarawak Malysians will find this satement as ridiculous, as there's nothing that can be compared with Kuala Lumpur. In fact, parochial is still the name of the game, here! Much of Kuching used to be green, with tall overarching trees offering shade at the sides of the roads. However, in recent years, the feeling of being surrounded by tropical greenery has dissipated somewhat. Nonetheless, the city council still does a reasonably good job of maintaining a tidy, if somewhat manicured, landscape."

i find this paragraph to be full of opinions.. perhaps more at place in a magazine or discussion board and not an encyclopedia...

[edit] Map

Can we change to a normal map please? Firstly, we're using a copyright image when there are free alternatives, and secondly a tourism brochure does not look appopriate for an encyclopedia. Borisblue 07:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Aye. But until someone who can make a map comes along, we probably need to grab the CIA Worldbook Map of Malaysia and just place a dot to show where Kuching is. --– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 16:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Please refrain from adding commercial links or links to your private website. Read what Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia's policy on external links. Thank you, and have a nice day. – Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] City size

According to Cities of Malaysia, Kuching is the 7th largest city. __earth (Talk) 11:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I'm trying to make all Malaysian cities to use Template:Infobox City since it's cleaner. But for Kuching, since it is actually two cities, life is a bit complicated. So, I've removed the logo and the flag placeholder =(. Maybe we should split this page into N and S Kuching?

The info on North and South are too insignificant to require two articles. And Template:Infobox City is for use on US cities! (Check where the State link in the infobox links to). I still prefer the Kuala Lumpur-look infobox.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 17:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Got that repaired. It's not necessarily US cities though. That was just customizable nature of the template. __earth (Talk) 18:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Gotcha. But I'm still against using Template:Infobox City, since Kuching is made of two city administrative areas and a slight change to the template can really screw this article. Perhaps a template for Kuching itslef, in order to keep things clean.
By the way, can you show me the source where it says that Kuching was established in 1855?– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 18:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we could use Template:Malaysian city instead? About 1855, it's a mistake. I copied and pasted the code from JB. I was redoing template for Johor Bahru and JB was established in 1855. So, I forgot to update the year. __earth (Talk) 03:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've made a new template, modified from the original and am using it at this page. I've included the two insignias. __earth (Talk) 03:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, is Kuching really 4,559.55 km2? That's huge! __earth (Talk) 15:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Kuching is bigger than Perlis. Perhaps the area includes those under the Kuching North City Hall, which stretch all the way from the city center to Santubong. See this.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 17:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I dont think Kuching is THAT big! 4559.55 km square will make Kuching bigger than London! Greater London as defined by the Greater London Authority is only about 1500km²! Anyone from the Land and Survey Dept that will have more concrete data? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.153.58.81 (talk) 08:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
the figure is actually for the whole Kuching Division. the division has 3 districts: Kuching (1,863sqkm), Bau (884sqkm), and Lundu (1,812sqkm): total 4,559sqkm. kawaputra 08:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sanyan Buidling in Kuching?

Please do correct the statement that the Sanyan Building is in Kuching. Sarawak's tallest building is in fact situated in Sibu.

It was a work of a vandal. The pre-vandal'd version has been restored. __earth (Talk) 01:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too wikitravel-ish?

This article seems to much like a wikitravel entry. Consider this: Transport by taxi is reasonable and in popular tourist spots there always seems to be an abundance of taxi drivers eager to pounce on their unsuspecting prey. It is quite rare to be able to flag down a taxi on the street because they are no where to be seen. Beware the unmetered taxi though. Public transport by antiquated, smoky, non-airconditioned buses is strictly for the intrepid back-packer only. Borisblue 05:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sister Cities

Does Kuching has any sister cities? Mike86 11:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

What is the basis of adding other languages on this page? __earth (Talk) 07:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe there is one. My reasons for opposing:
  • San Francisco has 'minority majority', with Chinese consisting 31% of the population. But there is no Chinese script in the article.
  • Your point of 'all the sign boards of road names are printed in Chinese' is false.[1] Have you actually seen all the road signs in Kuching? Are you a resident of Kuching?
  • 'penang and ipoh also have their chinese name printed clearly on the page too'. This is the English Wikipedia. It is not too hard for someone to look at the 'In other languages' box at the left column to find out what it is in Chinese/whatever. As for Chinese tourists, which Wikipedia will they be most likely to visit? ZH Wiki, of course. And you don't actually need to go to ZH to check, it's in the left column.
  • The issue of Jawi scripts usage has been discussed in my talk page and Zack2007's talk page. I believe, however, since the usage of Jawi is (so) low it shouldn't be added to an aritcle, but could be mentioned in passing in the introduction.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 10:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, unless Mandarin is an official language of Malaysia/Sabah/Kuching, there is no need to include the Chinese name in the article. We've had similar debates before on other articles such as Malaysia, and IIRC the agreement is that we only use the official name(s). Thus, even Jawi probably has a stronger claim for inclusion in the article, since Jawi is an alternative script for Malay, which is the official language of Malaysia. I've removed the Chinese name, and am about to do the same for Penang and Ipoh. Johnleemk | Talk 12:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Malay language is the official language of Malaysia. It has two forms of scripts, the Roman script and Jawi script. So Jawi as heritage should be included. (Please do not put it in the Lead section as it will clutter it. WP:LEAD instructs us to have the clearest and simplest lead section possible. I propose that all cities and states (including districts) in Malaysia should have the Malay language (Roman and Jawi scripts) and English translation (if any). For other than that (i.e airports, places etc), having English and Malay (roman only, as it will be too much and long to include jawi) are sufficient. For ZH favouritists, if it is allowed, then many other languages will be popped up in the future. Keep it as simple as possible. --Zack2007 12:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Im a resident of Kuching. i was born here and i was raised up here for more than 20 years. Not all but almost all the sign boards include the chinese road names. As i mentioned earlier, there is such a demand to include the chinese names in these few pages, like Kuching, Penang and Ipoh as there are more chinese residents than other ethnics. San Francisco, as u mentioned, only comprises 30 percent of Chinese, which means it's not the majority etnic staying in that city. The road names of Kuching has been printed in chinese long time ago since british was here. before the formation of malaysia, kuching's road names were only printed in english and chinese. but after that, it was printed in malay and chinese is to be remained as the number of chinese residents are more than other ethnics in the city. Matthew points out the rignt thing This is the English Wikipedia. It is not too hard for someone to look at the 'In other languages' box at the left column to find out what it is in Chinese/whatever. so why the chinese characters are being removed? if u were to ask me to include chinese name in kelantan state which have more malays, i would say that is unnecessary. i include the chinese names in these few necessary pages of malaysia as i forsee the importance of the inclusion of it as it is undeniably chinese is playing a vital role in malaysia where adding a few more important and useful languages would bring a lot of benefits to the viewers. Mike86 3:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
You are missing my point. Since Kuching is already available in other scripts at the 'In other languages' toolbox, I see no need in repeating the same thing in the article. As johnleemk has said, a similar debate has taken place over the Malaysia article, and the consensus is to use and only use official name. 31% of Chinese are a majority in San Francisco, since other ethnic groups have a smaller percentage. Finally, pay a visit to the MBKS website. You will see no Chinese names of Kuching in there.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 07:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
And i see no jawi script in the page too, and not even Singapore itself has used her other official languages in their webs except english. [[User:Mike86|Mike86] 8.03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As noted, Malay is the only official language in MALAYSIA. Malay has 2 scripts - Latin and Jawi. That is the basis of putting Jawi in the infobox (only). This is also a mean to standardize all the cities, districts, and states of Malaysia (in the infobox). --Zack2007 14:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
but what if Malay language actually has 34 different scripts, do we have to include it all just cause its the official language? put the roman script enough la. MALAYSIANS didnt learn the jawi script in bahasa melayu classes. only malays/muslims learn it in agama class, if im not mistaken. even that many malays, i believe, dont even know how to read and write in jawi after they have grown older. plus there is the wikipedia in bahasa melayu, the usage of jawi script will be very appropriate there since its the alternate script. my 2 cents.--kawaputra 09:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
perhaps if we put jawi scripts in the places within the states mentioned in the article below the it would be more appropriate:

Today, the script is used for religious and Malay cultural administration in Terengganu, Kelantan, Kedah, Perlis and Johor..(http://en.wikipedia.org/Jawi_script) --kawaputra 09:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Malay has only 2 scripts. It is to be put as a heritage of Malay language. Doesn't matter if it is now rarely used in a wider context. I just want to stress that it is still a part of Malay language, and as a mean of standardization for name of places in Malaysia, jawi script should be included (only in infobox). --Zack2007 10:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
but theres not much heritage in there as most of the alphabets originated from arabic. not from any SEAsian land (correct me if im mistaken). its only glorifying arabic influence on the malay language imo. --kawaputra 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Talking about heritage eh? Long time ago, Malay was a purely spoken language. There is no single writing system adapted. And them, came sanskrit writing, but that is very limited to few religious script. When Islam came to SEA, then everything starts to change, arabic script was adapted and Jawi script was created, and then many knows how to write. That's why we can find many artifacts about Malaya in Jawi. If you talk about it as glorifying arabic, then what do you call Malay language in Latin script (would you call this as a result of glorifying Western/Portuguese colonisation?). That is why I stress on Jawi as the alternative script in the infobox (for places). It is at the end Malay language anyway. About the government policy of teaching it only in religious context, I myself do not agree. It should be open for all malaysians. So sad. --Zack2007 17:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
hi again. re:above

when i say heritage i meant something unique coming from our lands (SEAsia/pentas sunda/etc). not from arabia.

as a malaysian, i would really love to preserve my/our heritage. although im not malay, i admit bahasa melayu is part of MY heritage (whether u like it or not) because i was bornt, lived and living in malaysia. but jawi is NOT my heritage. it might be yours, that is cool. but i was not taught about it, nor was i expected to know of it.

i think your basis of including jawi is weak. u urself mentioned above to "keep things as simple as possible", so we just eliminate what is NOT NECESSARY. including chinese scripts. furthermore, like u said, jawi is the ALTERNATIVE script. its not even the OFFICIAL script.

i think u are more interested in pursuing ur personal agenda to promote preservation of the usage of jawi. i respect that. but think of the hundreds of languages in east m'sia already extinct. all in the name of bahasa melayu, our national language. so please, if u wanna promote the preservation of the script do it somewhere else-----> eg http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuching (i see no jawi here at all. how come?)

i might accept the inclusion if at least two other contributors here agree with you, and also give a better basis of inclusion. im sorry but this is just how i feel. i might be taking this abit too seriously, but nvm la. heee. till then. --kawaputra 11:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vote:Is Jawi necessary?

In view of this, I would like everyone to vote.

Is Malay Jawi script necessary to be included in the infobox for Kuching article? Please justify your answer.

  • Keep. My arguments:
    • Malay is the official language of Malaysia. Malay language has two scripts, Latin and Jawi. Whether you like it or not, many government official writings did use jawi, i.e many states emblems such as Malaysia emblems, Negeri Sembilan emblems, Shah Alam seal etc. Jawi is a part of Malay language. As WP:UE warrants that native language can be put as a native language, Jawi script (as Malay) should be together in it.
    • If let say we be selective and say that only some cities should have Jawi script, and some should not, then it will look messy. This is by means to standardise so that all states and cities of Malaysia should have both Latin and Jawi script for their names (plus English if applicable).
    • Don't rule this because you don't like it. Whether you learn it or not, the truth is, it is Malay in jawi script. I am not trying to act against you or holding any grudge. This is wikipedia, not some place to vent your emotion or your personal life. Stick to the official ok.

Let see what others want to say. I am willing to hear many opinions ok. :) --Zack2007 15:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

yes, this is a good idea. i would further suggest that any outcome reached here we can also apply to other cities or places in East Malaysia if there is no objection :)

  • Delete. My arguments:
    • there already is a malay translation in latin script in most cities, airports, etc. this is the english version of wiki.this is to keep things as simple as possible and eliminate what is unnecessary (eg alternative scripts).
    • it is just an alternative script, not an official script. the (minimal) usage in malaysia only seems to carry historical and perhaps aesthetic value.
    • putting jawi would be more appropriate in the malay version of wiki. http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laman_Utama
    • jawi is not learnt and understood by many malaysians. this is even more apparent in east malaysia. sabah n sarawak is different from peninsula. the circumstances in which we joined m'sia in '63 should be considered.
    • the cultural link between East malaysia/malaysians with Jawi is very weak. if not, almost non-existence.

current score: 1-1. peace out.--kawaputra 08:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete
  • As said above, what is written in Jawi script is the translation of the Malay name in Roman script.
  • Even if we use Jawi under WP:UE, there will be no end to people trying to add in other scripts and other languages - like Chinese, Indian, even Iban. Not to mention that Jawi, even with its native/widespread status, doesn't see widespread use.
  • As per kawaputra, Jawi is appropiate in MS-Wiki.
  • My opinion is that all Malaysian-related articles should only use Jawi when Jawi is related to it - such as Utusan Melayu.

– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 06:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete
Allowing Jawi does not help the aim to remove all other irrelevant languages off Malaysia-related article English Wikipedia. In fact, the inclusion of Jawi encourages it. It's easy for others that are for the inclusion of other languages to ask, "why Jawi is included but the rest is not?" and then use that as a justification to include other languages.

- __earth (Talk) 07:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I was asked for my opinion, but I'm really neutral on this - this is really just a tempest in a teacup to me. I'm okay with Jawi being in the article, but I'm also okay with it not being there. Jawi is a script of the official language of Malaysia, so it has a stronger claim than Mandarin or Tamil, but not necessarily an equal claim with the Roman script that dominates Malay - that's my position. Make of it what you will. Johnleemk | Talk 08:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually im not so sure if Jawi Script is really necessary to be included in the page. However, i think Kawaputra is somehow right that Sabah & Sarawak is very different from the west Malaysia since the agreement of Malaysia Formation in 1963 was being inked. Sabah & Sarawak may have some politically differences from the West Malaysia as well as the immigration control of West Malaysians to Sabah and Sarawak. Being a resident of Kuching, as i have been raised up here for more than 20 years, i never see a Jawi Script was being used in the city. As i have said Kuching is unique from other cities in Malaysia where it is the only city in Malaysia with road names printed in Chinese/Mandarin. Besides, Jawi Script was only compulsory to Muslims where there is a large number of Malaysians cannot read the script, this is one of the points. Besides, Jawi Script has never been utilised in Malaysia where it is only utilised in Islamic teaching. These are my comments about this issue. I think only certain states or cities in Malaysia deserve to have Jawi Script, such as Kelantan, Kota Bharu, etc. Mike86 7:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Its ok with me to keep the Jawi spelling. But I think one jawi character is currently missing at point of writing this. I have no problem with keeping Mandarin as well but there is a problem with Mandarin - if you use it in Kuching you will need to add it for Sarawak - and you have a few spellings for that. How I like it spell might not be how you would like it. -NA-

  • It is not true that Jawi is only utilised in Islamic teaching. There are lots of good novels written in it.
  • Keep Since the argument is turning into political and religious issues, than keep JAWI. It will help to promote Malaysia as a multi-cultural nation. yeah! Mariahofborneo 13:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Mariahofborneo, i dont agree with your argument. If we were to promote Malaysia as a multi-cultural nation, then Jawi is not the only one should be included, Mandarin, Tamil, Arabian should be included too. Besides, im talking about the utilisation of the Jawi in terms of politic, public usage, etc. Mike86 14:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

As I have said, I don't mind having Mandarin or any other scripts. I do read Modern Chinese, Kana, hiragana, simple Indian script, plus Hebrew. Scripts are beautiful - art. For Chinese Scripts (which I referred to Mandarin), I just don't agree with the choice of characters used - how you spell it in those languages. Unlike Jawi which is straight-forward, chinese characters come with meanings. Example: Mariahofborneo can be spelled in Chinese characters to mean Beautiful King Horse of Borneo or just plan Beautiful Borneo or some other meanings. Koprendo?Mariahofborneo 17:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well it seems obvious what the consensus is. East Malaysia only adopted Malay is its official language about 20 years after the Peninsular Malaysia. So I guess that is why Jawi has not much influence over there. I guess it only fair to say here that let put the Jawi script off the east Malaysia's article. Agree everyone? --Zack2007 14:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

yes i agree. thnx for being understanding mate. salam kenal :)--kawaputra 11:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Filming Location

hi, guys. i hope somebody could help me to expand the filming location section. thanks. Mike86 3:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mike86

Eonco here; I've just added more stuff into the Kuching as film locations section. Hope you find it useful.

I think the filming location is too much advertisement / travel guide like. I dont think it is necessary in the first place. --Zack2007 06:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Zack2007.

I beg to disagree because I have met many people who actually wants to know more about Kuching as a film location and details of which movies were actually shot here. Sorry if you don't happen to be one of them.

Many places can become filming locations. KL has been in numerous filming shots so does Paris (even more than Kuching), neither have the section on the filming locations. So tell me why Kuching must have an exclusive section on this? --Zack2007 11:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Kuching is gaining her popularity and being attracted by many film makers to make their ways here to shot their films. And the latest one is Bollywood. Kuching is simply incomparable to Paris or London or Los Angeles where such cities have long been popular chosen to shoot films. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mike86 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Some comments

I passed by this page as I've created an article on the POW and civilian internee camp at Batu Lintang, Kuching, which I wanted to link to this page. I was surprised to see that the history section devotes more space to speculative discussion on the origin of the name 'Kuching' than to the actual history of the place - and that there was no mention of the WW2 Japanese invasion at all. Reading the article you'd think the Brooke dynasty ruled uninterrupted right through to 1946. I've changed what I have knowledge of, but I'm sure Kuching has a huge amount of interesting history that is begging for someone in the know to expand.

A lot of the comments above still stand with the article - it's too conversational in tone and reads like an advert in many places. The filming locations section is ridiculous: totally non-encyclopaedic, badly-written and full of PR-puffery and information that has no place in Wikipedia. Try IMDB instead. Jasper33 14:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I found an article today from thestar-bernama about Kuching history. i think this can be useful to expand the history section. never knew kuching is quite rich in history. the article. kawaputra 06:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in the book Sarawak Long Ago, published by DBP. The author's name escaped my mind at the moment, but it is an excellent reference for Kuching/Sarawak since it was written in 1969, when things are still the way they are.– Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 08:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
ya. that should be an interesting read :) kawaputra 09:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kuching district - some data found

Some data i found from councils' website. Kuching district (1,863sq km) is administered by 3 local council:

  • Kuching North City Hall(DBKU): 369.48 sqkm; pop: 133,600
  • Kuching South City Council (MBKS): 61.53 sqkm; pop: 143,500
  • Padawan Municipal Council (MPP) (formerly Kuching Rural District Council): 1,431.82 sqkm; pop: 306,000

population figures from respective councils. official (stat.gov.my) population estimate (2006) for whole kuching district: 580,000. world gazetteer: 634,517 (2007- calculations). interesting map: kuching district kawaputra 09:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

When was the last update of the councils' website? Also, could you point me to the page where you got Kuching's population at [www.statistics.gov.my]? Not that I'm doubting you, it's just that the sites are quite hard to navigate... – Matthew A. Lockhart (talk) 08:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
i dont know when the website was updated. about stats.gov, unfortunately they dont provide data online. they only have publication for sale. i have a free small booklet from stats dept. titled "Basic population characteristics by administrative districts - 2006", Department of Statistics, Malaysia. these are really simple data with no ethnic distribution etc. these are their estimates based on 2000 census. apparently they only have census once in 10 years. if anyone need to know district population and area size, let me know. kawaputra 09:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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