User talk:Kubura/Archive4

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[edit] Re: Let me hear yo out

Sorry? Could you state a little clearer what was your point? (in my talk page) HolyRomanEmperor 18:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From talk:History_of_Croatia

I think that you view that fact a bit one-sided. This is the total internally misplaced statistics: 300,000 Serbs and 220,000 Croats. The 1993 Krajina accords state that 135,000 Croats were forced to leave Krajina and 102,000 have refuged to Krajina from the rest of Croatia.

Additionally, that "invitation to stay" was the same thing conducted by Milosevic's forces on Kosovo in 1999 during the aggressions against the Albanian population... see what I am aiming at? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

As we have information here, problem on Kosovo (which caused NATO intervention) was when paramilitary forces of Arkan and Co. started to "solve things their way". CRO government and generals sent no such forces and no such people to deal with rebel areas. Kubura 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I find it ridiculous that the idiotish government of RSK could've ever planned anything like that. Besides; the governmental infrastructure was destroyed by the time Operation Storm fired (so nothing could've been planned and/or executed then) --HolyRomanEmperor 17:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Incredible, but search the Net for info about actions and acts of governing bodies of so-called RSK. They knew that Croatia 'll do milit.actions, so they prepared withdrawal/escape much before. Martić and Co. were not surprised with Cro.milit.action (You can't mobilise 100.000 soldiers without everyone knowing it, then even hide them somewhere and say:"Boo!" ).
Personally, I couldn't believe that Serbs left. I was expecting much harder resistence. I saw no reason for withdrawal, escape. Even Croatian intelligence officers (gen.Domazet-Lošo) said that Oluja's att./def. ratio was 3:1 (infantry), in some areas even worse (2,5/1 or less), worse than mil.handbooks suggest/allow. That was almost a gamble.Kubura 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Besides; we have recorded Tuđman and his advisors (Gotovina included) stating that the military operation (during the preparations for Operation Storm) had to be slow, and had to all territories except for the little strip of land at Una; stating that "we must leave the Serbs a place to run through when we push them". --HolyRomanEmperor 17:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

If you need a proof there is: Tuđmanove izjave and loads of other sources.

It is no secret that it was said it should be left an escape channel for Serbs, for those who want to leave. If I remember well, it was even said in national radio and TV stations, so that those Serbs have proper information and don't wonder around. Because, if they go through these roads, soldiers knew that these Serbs want to leave. If Cro.soldiers find them hiding in the woods around, what the soldiers might think? Guerilla war? Put yourself in the situation of Cro.soldier. A soldier has only one life.Kubura 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The overall number of Croatian Serbs decreased by almost half a million, by the way (population censi and other...). A quarter of a million alone was pushed during Operation Storm. Besides, if the Croatian government was so "welcomed" to "invite" the Serbs to stay, why would (a decade has passed by now) still be reluctant on returning the old tenancy rights and/or housing (and rebuilding)? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

First things first. Don't expect to have Serbs returned into Croatia, if you haven't done everything on returning the Croats into Republika Srpska (Banja Luka, e.g.) or into Serbia (Vojvodina mostly). Kubura 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ...more...

You failed to answer my first paragraph (the most important) - about mutual ethnic cleansing. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I will, I haven't forgot it, when I got some time during the day.Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC).
See at the bottom.Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

So, basicly, you are willing to sacrifise a lot of people's lives because of other peoples' lives. That's unethic, exactly the same thoughts held by Ante Pavelić or Radovan Kradžić. There is only one case of ethnic cleansing in Vojvodina; and that of a single Croatian family, evicted personally by Vojislav Seselj. And I don't know the number of Bosnian-Herzegovinian Croats, but it certainly isn't 500,000 (no disrespect to their suffers). --HolyRomanEmperor 21:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Willing to sacrifise...? I think you misunderstood me, tell me my textline which brought you to this conclusion. Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

To add: Vojvodina is an excellent (both historical and ethnic) example of multi-ethnicism and multi-culturalism that can almost not be seen in Europe and rarely in the whole world. HolyRomanEmperor 21:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

If you don't have info, I'll send you some links/references here which speak about anti-Croat actions. I believe you that in Vojvodina (except for Banat, they are other world) the things were/are for Croats much better than in "Serbia proper". Still, milit. corps from Vojvodina had dirtened their hands over here. 2nd, I know that in 1991 TV Novi Sad was much bigger... anti-Croat agitator and much bigger warmonger (ratni huškač na Hrvatsku), much more extremist than TV Beograd. Not to mention TV Priština (program in Serb language). Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Nearly four fifths of the exiled from Croatia are civilans. In case you did not know, the guerrila war against civilians is a synonime for ethnic cleansing. Additionally, there were probably two options: either to gather 300,000 Serbs and execute the lost of them or to ethnicly push them out of Croatia. As much as Tudjman and his minions liked the first, it would not be nice in Cro's reputation to repeat what it did in 1941-1945. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

How to tell you... there were too many "very bad surprises" with "grannies" and people in "civilian uniforms". 2nd, "Escape routes" were just for bringing the order, canalizing all those people. And, look how things are functioning everyday on the border: you cannot cross the border everywhere you want to. Only on places that are specially built for that, even in peace times. 3rd, I haven't ment a "guerilla war against civilians". Because someone was having civilian suit and driving things on tractor, it doesn't mean they are civilians. What if they shoot on your back? You don't have time to search their stuff. What if they are "smuggling" weapons and food for soldiers that are hiding in the mountains (and possibly reorganizing the defence there)? Not to mentions if they are smuggling soldiers. Or even if the refugees are soldiers themselves, only in civilian suit. So, either to stay at home, or if they want to leave, to use a specified road. Do you get me now (I ment that "guerilla war")? Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

And additionally, the Serbs that did not leave directly under force, left in fear. They had implanted in them what Croats did to them in WWII, and it was obvious that it was going to be repeated if they stay (although, it was probably promoted by the Serbian government). I rather put myself in the place of civilians, since a man becomes a sinner as soon as he joins the Military. A human has only one life. So, put yourself in the place of Serbian villager, and think; leave or stay. Which would seem more better? Additionally, its a good thing that they left; because the Serbs who stayed were generally harrassed and mass-murdered like happenned in Varivode. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, fear. Years of serbian anti-Croat propaganda turned to be a weapon against Serbs. They filled their heads incredibly. But the big reason of fleeing was, I think, that there was a big feeling of guilt. Croat refugees had very bad experiences with some of their Serb neighbours. Those Serbs obviously didn't want to face them. 2nd, have in mind that we could here hear all rebel-Serb radio-stations (Knin, Gračac, Korenica...). A person X wishes to person Y something with a musical wish (musical wishes lasted for whole afternoons). So many extremist and anti-Croat songs wished. We never had such case with anti-Serb songs on our radios. Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to point to some genocide and mass-murder that the Croatian Army did during 1993 and after Operation Storm (even when the Civil War in Croatia ended), if you need more convincing? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't deny any warcrimes. Our medias talk about it. Recently, much more than they talk about warcrimes over Cro.civilians (almost nothing).
But, I don't believe to anyone who said that Cro. mil. operations were warcrimes. Why? As a soldier, you don't have time to commit the warcrimes during the mil. operation: you're too busy with moving or staying in trench. You don't have time to wander around (neither is safe to do so on a battlefield) neither you're allowed to. Because, it's a desertion. But for those that came much later, when it was safe to "wander around"... I don't count here the cases of "settling the accounts" from the beginning of war. Reports of various international organizations are special case. Who controlled them, when they "wandered around" (if they killed someone, whome would world believe)? They were here for special purposes, not to be a "peace dove". Kubura 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

When I mentioned the reluctance of Croatia to return the Serb refugees and you said "first things first...". That's in indirect claiming that you are willing to torture the lives of 400,000 because of some totally different people! --HolyRomanEmperor 12:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If you remember well, Croats were first forced to leave their homes, that means 1991 (some even earlier, after "log-revolution"). Many of them haven't returned home yet, neither they have their homes rebuilt (neither in Croatia!). Why would theirs turn (for reconstruction) be after the Serbs, who fled 4 y. later? And who put themselves during the war...on the other side...? (you see why reluctance) Then you have a trade-off here: first Serbia and R.Srpska have to insure the return of Croats, then we'll do our part. 1991 was before 1995. Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Well anyway, truthful as that thing on Vojvodina may be, it was the second best (after Slovenia) place of former Yugoslavia and probably the best when we regard only nationalism. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This requires its own article... Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The Croatian anti-Serbian propaganda and mentallity was just as bad. The Thompson rock band was spreading Greater Croatdom and Serbophobia around all the TVs and Radio Stations (not to mention the huge only propaganda-purpose concerts). Not just that, but it was heeding for the call of the Ustašas... AGAIN! --HolyRomanEmperor 12:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply'll be later.Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't believe why would a Croatian soldier go araound and commit a warcrime. I'll tell you. One less Serb on Earth - result: Croatian government and military (brainwashed by nationalism and primitivism) rejoice. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply'll be later.Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Here. Who and why would commit a crime? Some people took the justice in their hands (why? unsatisfaction with "Zakon o oprostu") and killed someone from vindictive reasons; thing were personal. Some did the same, though they had no "first line" reason of revenge. Some killed, because some people are criminals whome killing people is a joy. Kubura 10:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The indictment against Ante Gotovina shows that he killed at least 150 Serbian civilians during Operation Storm... Do you know why is there "at least"? Because the figure of all Serbian civilians that disappeared during Operation Storm - is 3,046. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply'll be later.Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
We can discuss this on Talk:Ante Gotovina. In short, prosecutor Del Ponte still has to proove all those accusations. Than, one thing is "commander's responsibility", and the other things are crap for what is Gotovina being charged. Some other battles are being fought there; Gotovina is just a figure. Third, who said that all those "dissappeared Serbs" were there at all? Were possibly those Serbs agitating for peaceful return to Croatian legal system and for the end of that mindless and nonsense rebellion? And then some radical "eagles" etc. "removed" them? Have those numbers being just made up, in order to charge Croatia with more accusations? Kubura 10:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Kubura, the SRS and Vojislav Seselj wanted their ol' Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag line. The HSP and their leader wanted a new line to be created - Subotica-Zemun-Drina-Sandžak-Boka kotorska. There was mutual ethnic cleansing - thousands of Serbian villagers in Slavonia; Croats from Dubrovnik and Vukovar; assasinations of Croats at Osijek and Ervenik and expulsions of them from RSK; the famous Crystal Night in Zadar during the mass Croatian aggression against its Serbian populace; many fights which cost the lives of both sides; and the mass exodus of Serbian population initiated by Operation Storm. Conclusion: the world is not black and white. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

...your replies? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply'll be later. I've been busy these days. Did you saw the hour when I posted you my answers? Sometimes I sleep during the night. :) Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I've got several mre questions: Are the Serbs a constitutional nation of Croatia and is Serbian an official language; are there any Serbian papers, TVs and radios in Croatia and did the Serbs do something to you personally so that you hate them so much? --HolyRomanEmperor 19:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Just distinguish adjectives "Serb" and "Serbian". Serb can be even from China, Serbian is not necessarily a Serb. Yes, Serbs are constitutional nation, beside other nations in Croatia ("...Croatia is a country of Croats and all other nations that live in Croatia..."). Use of Serb language is official (besides Croat language) in some districts, not just in Podunavlje. Media? Yes. For TV & radio-stations I don't know. But publishing is more developed (even children magazines, e.g. "Bijela pčela", if my mind serves me well).
Where did you saw me expressing the hateridge toward the Serbs? Which of my words made you thinks so? Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Decrease in numbers

HRE, you've said: "...The overall number of Croatian Serbs decreased by almost half a million... A quarter of a million alone was pushed during Operation Storm... ".

Nr of Cro.Serbs decreased also because of many other factors. A lot of JNA professional personnel left with their families before/at the beginning of war. Many Serb families made apartment/house swaps with Croat families. In mixed marriages, where family members declared themselves as Serbs, those same people declare themselves as Croats now. Many Serbs have gone to live abroad, finding better job opportunities (as well as lot of Croats; 200.000 young Croat families left Croatia!). In some areas of Croatia (the case in Istria and Rijeka), you'll find Serbs declaring themselves as -Italians. Kubura 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Serb

Well, you said a "trade-off", meaning that you'll torture the people just because they left several years later because some totally other people. That's the strategy of Slobodan Milosevic, Stalin and Radovan Karadzic (maybe you're a Cetnik :) --HolyRomanEmperor 17:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you get me well? Return of Croats for return of Serbs. That's the way to force Serbia to do so. Da ne bi drugoj strani palo na pamet zajebat nas. Da ne bi bilo: mi Srbe pustimo nazad u RH, a nas Hrvate ne nazad u RS odnosno Vojvodinu. World community won't push Serbia and R.Srpska to enable the return of Croats, as much as they will do so with Croatia. But return will be only for those who intend to be loyal citizens of Croatia.Kubura 03:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse they declare themselves as Italians. It is highly inopportune to declare themselves as Serbs (they would not be safe); especially during these nationalist days. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sure, Croats from Istra are famous chauvinists, known for their attitude "ubit i zaklat" and counting of bloodcells.Kubura 03:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Serbs are a national minority in Croatia. The Republic of Croatia was since its creation in 1944 up to the nationalist Constitution of 1990 the nation-state of two peoples - Croats and Serbs; and the constitution evicted the Serbs and created a nation-state of only Croats. It started the war, after all. Additionally, you might hear Serbian language spoken, but it is not official anywhere in Croatia. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. That's why we in Croatia used to sarcastically say that SR Hrvatska is abbreviation for Srpska republika Hrvatska. That double constitution was an imposed solution. This country is Croatia, country of Croats.
For Serb as official language in CRO, search the pages on the Net.
War started somebody else, who did and incited log-revolution, shelled Cro.cities, shot Cro.civilians in Cro.cities from military camps... this requires an article, this page is too short.Kubura 03:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

No matter what happenned, it was wrong to exile the people from the constitution. It is what funnelled (or even - started?) Serbian nationalism. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

This needs a --whole-- category(!), category about the rise of Serb nationalism in 1980s. HRE, you're too young, things've started much earlier, while Croatia kept its mouth shut. See somewhere the articles/books that are under keywords "hrvatska šutnja". Kubura 03:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Srpski narod i Srbija nisu jedno. Niti hrvatski narod i Hrvatska. Ako ti ne znaš, to što BiH radi ne može se povezati s tim što SCG radi. Plus to, u Srbiju je izbjeglo samo 140,000 - 150,000 Srba. Ostali se uglavnom vuku po Kanadi i Australiji. Sad će Hrvatski političari i cijeli svet kaznit! :-D --HolyRomanEmperor 15:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

A nekoliko desetaka hiljada Hrvata manje iz Vojvodine nije nikakav problem. Hrvata je i prije rata bilo malo u Vojvodini; a ti što su otišli, nisu izgnani, već su svojevoljno otišli; Hrvatska je poslije rata imala dovoljno novih (srpskih) kuca za useljenje. Franjo je cak i zvao deset Hrvata iz Bugarske, a cak i Srbe-katolike. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

What was wrong with the Serbs being a constitutional nation in Croatia? Croatia was the land of both peoples for centuries and both people built Croatia what is today. Bear on your mind that Croats are still a constitutional nation of Serbia and Montenegro, and that the Croatian language is the official language of Vojvodina; yet much less than 1% of the population are ethnic Croats. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you don't get me well. What do you mean under "constitutional" nation?
SCG ministress told that "there no Croats in YU, so they cannot be a minority in YU". Croats recently got a minority status in Vojvodina. I'll post you the link later these days.Kubura 03:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't tell me that I am to young when I have seen enough of both the Croats' and Serbs'... $@&*@# in Croatia.

Look at Croatia and see that the official language is Croatian and only Italian as well. Look at Vojvodina and notice that the Croatian language is an official language (actually since the break of the language during the war in 1992). Note also that the Croatian language (despite its irrelevant 1% or 2% total speakers) is completly equal to Czeck, Hungarian, Romanian or any other of the 6 official languages of Vojvodina; as can be seen in the TVs, newspapers and radios. Note that the Croats are one six (or soon, seven) equal, constitutional peoples of Vojvodina (just like Croats and Serbs were in Croatia before the Serbs' eviction from the constitution in 1990).

Italian only in one županija. And even this is too much, because they live in a few dosen of cities and villages, not the whole županija.
Can you post me the link that says "Vojvodina is a country of Serbs, Hungarians, Croats, Slovaks, Romanians and all other nations that live in it..."? (Czech language in Vojvodina? Did you mean Slovak language?) Kubura 08:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You have also mentioned that the two nations of Croatia was imposed. It wasn't. It was decided by the State Anti-Fascist Council of People's Liberation of Croatia in 1944 in Topusko in 8 May and 9 May. It wasn't boycotted by anyone unlike the 1990 constitution (making the latter imposed when compared to the earlier one :)

Sorry wash washing your talk page. I'll wait for all your reply'll be laters. :)--HolyRomanEmperor 15:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, true, that was ZAVNOH decision. Problem was that ZAVNOH council didn't represent all Croat parties (ustashis were small minority, though very, very organised and with big support from abroad), only the Croats that "went into forest". Later, every disagreement with Serb status meant promptly being swallowed by the night. Kubura 08:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Istra, Vojvodina

While that Italian part was obviously an irony, remember that most Croats are new in Istria. It was a heavy process of the ethnic cleansing of the Italian population (and a number of the cut-throats settled in istria :S).

"New in Istria"? Uff. You'll find more early medieval Croat monuments in Istria, than around Zagreb. Second, Istrian Croats are čakavian. Their dialect is autochtonous. You won't find it in other parts of Croatia. Ethnic cleansing of Italians in Istria? After 1943, no Mussolini's laws had strength anymore (ban of giving "funny" Croat names..., italianization of Cro.surnames). Istria has recroatized. Certain number of Croats has returned on Istria. The very Italians, from Calabria, that Mussolini settled 1920-1943, had left. The original Romans (not Italians) remained in Istria (Istriots). Then, many families used the opportunity (after peace accords with Italy) to leave for west, as economic emigrants.

Settled "cut-throats"? Yeah, wright. But, yes, there was a number of Serbs settled on Istria (Poreč became little Belgrade). They still are in action, only under other national names (Italians, regionally declared etc.). Kubura 15:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't, because Vojvodina is a non-national conglomerate (unlike Slovenia or Croatia) whose constitutional nations are only decided by mother tongue (like on Kosovo - Albanian language-speakers and Serbian-language speakers). Also, see SFRJ for details on it. Yeah, I meant Slovaks :). By the way, Hrvatska riječ is one of the national magazines that come out every week funded by the government. The number of Serbs in Croatia is 4,5%, but counting all world-wide living (and if we count the killed-in-war ones) it would make somewhere around 17%-18% of Croatia's population with arounf 750,000 citizens. 21,053 Croats in Vojvodina speak the Croatian language which is a tiny 1.04%, and yet the Croatian language is a official language in Vojvodina and generally autonomous and equal to all others. You know what: Call me when Croatia announes the Serbian language as its secondary official language and when the government funds a magazine that is regularely printed in Serbian. Also, call me when Croatia becomes again a dual-nation state of Croats and Serbs (which will never be, by the way :D). --HolyRomanEmperor 22:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ustashas?

Did you mention the Ustashas? Were you really serious when you said that they were supposed to be present at ZAVNOH in 1944? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Not them, they were always a minority. There was a lot of supporters of other parties in Croatia, which were not "in the forest", neither were ustashis. Neither they were against the Serbs by default. Just they wouldn't agree with overpositioning of Serbs. Kubura 14:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I would hardly call the Ustašas having low support. That's like callin Slobodan Milošević's Socialist Party of Serbia and Franjo Tuđman's Croatian Democratic Union being a minor political factions :=D.
Well, you've gotta name some parties. I am familiar with the Serbo-Croatian political infrastructure and I guarrantee, no Party back then would oppose the equalization (except for the Nazies and Fascists).
Could you please define overpositioning? The decision was brought merely on ethnic and historical merits; I don't see any overpositioning. It's like the "overpositioning" of Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And don't even let me begin on the non-sencical overpositioning of Croats in Vojvodina. Would you agree that it would be good if the Croats again became a national minority; and if the Croatian language would be cast out from the official languages of Vojvodina? Would you regard it as a proper thing to do?
You'll have to do a lot more research if you can't answer all these las questions. :D

The parties? Have you learned about the importance of HSS (Hrvatska seljačka stranka) in Croatia in 1930's and 1940's? Then, ustashis group came in Croatia from abroad in 1941. They became the rulers of "independent" Croatia without any elections. Still, if ustashis had support among Croats as in your comparison, there would be no Serbs, no Serb villages, no Serb houses in areas west of Drina. Believe me that. Kubura 15:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Croats are the minority in Vojvodina. Though, the number is much bigger, than the current statistics show, still but much smaller then before 1991. Declaring yourself as Croat in country in the times when chetnik movement is rehabilitated is craz and devil-daring. Some part of Croats declare themselves as Bunjevci, Šokci, Jugoslaveni, Magyars, even as Montenegrins or Serbs, just to have peaceful life and to keep theirs job. But when they got the bomb in their backyard, there you have them on Croatian borders with bags. So, why do you complain on Croat position in Vojvodina? Kubura 15:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Overpositioning someone - putting someone on position bigger than that someone is should have. Because of overpositioning of Serbs, we couldn't built Split-Zagreb highway (which was finally built 2000-03), because some Serb said it is the "nationalistic road" (it was dangerous to talk about it publicly!). Because of it, Croatia was trafically suffered. With ordinary road, it meant 10 hours of dangerous driving. Air traffick was expensive, useless if you wanted to take more things with you. There was a rail Split-Zagreb, that passed through Knin, drive took 10 hours. After the "log-revolution", that weekness showed even more. Kubura 15:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Why are the Serbs not in the constitutional status as they were before 1990? Because Croatia is country of Croats, Croat-ia. Serbs are just one of minorities, though most numerous. And unlike other minorities, many Serbs put themselves in the service of another country. Kubura 15:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

1. The Ustashas are off the count (because of their atrocities and violations of human rights). Well, ofcourse they had support. You cannot amass a 100,000 man Army, a demonstration of 10,000 civilians supporting the Ustashas in Zagreb, and execute hundreds of thousands (and indirectly lead to altogether over 1,000,000,000) persons without major support of the population. :P Example: the number of Serbs after the war was very small, a large part was killed, and the majority was exiled to Serbia (I think the figure is 600,000), but they returned after the war ended majorily. The other example - The Croatian Peasent Party is a good one. But still, it was ran by ultrarightists and nationalists, so its expected from them to demand an ethnicly pure Croatian Croatia. Also, remember that the party became unendigly unpopular after the Wolrd War. But still it is one example (and of little importence).

2. I don't compain the overpositioning of Croats in Vojvodina. I am just drawing a parallel. Tell me this: Would you agree if the Croatian language would get evicted from the official languages of Vojvodina? The Croatian Vojvodinian percentage cannot be compared to the percentage of Serbs in Croatia - which leaves us to two choices: either make the Serbian language as official in Croatia next to the Croatian language; or tear down the Croatian language as official in Vojvodina (and the names like "Srijemska Mitrovica"). Which would you choose?

3.? What does that have anything to do with/without the alleged overpositioning. That could've happenned without/with it.

4. Yes, and Vojvodina is the Province of Serbia: Serb-ia. Why are then 5 nations (in reality, 6) official next to the majority Serbs? You fail to see that you didn't actually say anything with that last part. Also, historically, Croatia is a land of Croats and Serbs, not Croats alone.

Sorry for waiting so long. Now, some answers:

1. Ustashas were very efficient with weapons. If ustashas had major support, the only living Serbs would be the ones E of Drina.
2. Serb language is official in two districts in Croatia. Have you browsed the internet yet?
3. Why it mattered? In many areas you couldn't do anything, because some Serb from high above in SRH structures said "that's nationalistic". Just like that. Like an Middle Ages curse. E.g., we couldn't build the highway Split-Zagreb, because some high-positioned Serbs stigmated that road as "nationalistic", and any talk about it could bring you very serious problems.
4. Yes, it's the province of Serbia. Autonomous one. Serbs in Croatia? They came too late to be the ruler here. And in too small numbers. Than, according to your logic, you can put Hungarians and Albanians as constitutional nations for whole Serbia (not just Vojvodina and Kosovo), because they are present in areas of todays Serbia much longer than are Serbs in Croatia. And they are much more numerous. Kubura 13:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is Serbs comprised majority on a third of the soil of Croatia. You know, that was a common issue in 1945 - Serbs of Croatia & Albanians of Serbia: regional autonomy, or full consitutionality - it was decided in the end - that the Albanians receive Kosovo because of their dense population there and Serbs receive full constitutionality in Croatia - because they comprise majority on over 30% of Croatia's soil - and live basicly everywhere in Croatia (unlike Albanians who live only on Kosovo).

You cannot compare it with Hungarians and Albanians - they don't form a majority on a great part of Serbia, nor do they live basicly everywhere across the Republic.

That also has historical reasons - Sebrs were the majority of Slavonia if you didn't know. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Majority? Yeah, also in Andalusia, Tibet, Bengal and Sao Paolo (SAO Pavle). Second, Serbia has 40% of "minorities". Third, that territorial distribution is the results of Serb colonizations in Croatia during two Yugoslavias. Kubura 01:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What

[edit] Serbs in Croatia bit

Eh, sarcasm. Firstly, I'd dispute the colonizations during two Yugoslavias. Surely, everyone knows that such a thing happenned in the Kingdom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_Habsburg_Empire#19th_century_up_to_WWI According to the 1840] census, the population of Croatia and Slavonia was 48% Croatian and 32% Serbian. There were 777,880 Croats and 504,179 Serbs. I find it strange that in over 150 years the number of Serbs would stay pretty much the same - and the number of Croats increase almost four times. Have in mind, additionally, that the Croatian Serbs had the largest birth rate next to the Kosovar Serbs on earth.

If you view the ethnic maps, you might notice that they had been exact like the pre 1991 for 300-400 years (with a significant thinning of ethnic Serb territories since World War II). So, these migrations weren't much of a change. Tito promoted the moving of Serbs from Croatia during the Second Yugoslavia to strengthen Croatian ethnic strength. The most known were movements from Croatia to Vojvodina (once a multi-ethnic community and now a Serbian-populated province; I could say the same thing for Slavonia - once a multi-ethnic haven, and now a Croatian-populated province).

Here's the total migrations of Serbs to/from Croatia list:

So, appearently, 300,000 Serbs have left the Second Yugo. Where is this colonization? Add to that the figure of 500,000 refugees in the 1991-1995 war; and understand that ever since the end of the 19th century, the Serbs have been 'constantly emigrating from Croatia'.

[edit] Serbia population bit

No, Serbia hasn't got 40% minorities. Note that Kosovo is no longer counted in the population of Serbia. You now have 82.86% Serbs and 3.91% Hungarians. Then there's remaining 9.79% "others", who include the constitutional peoples (Albanians, Rusyns, Slovaks and Croats). When calculated alltogether, the number of minorities in Serbia cannot possibly exceed 10% (it's lower, actually).

Kosovo no longer counted in Serbia? That's something new. Kubura 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You said

Still, if ustashis had support among Croats as in your comparison, there would be no Serbs, no Serb villages, no Serb houses in areas west of Drina. Believe me that. Kubura 15:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Then why does everyone emphasize the Serbian nationalistic 1990s movement? If this logic of yours is applied, the Greater Serbia is nothing but a tiny incorrect myth (which it isn't, it's very real). Even you agree with me, don't you? The Serbian nationalist movements of the 1990s made 10 times less damage than the Ustashas and caused a 100 times smaller. We must face it, Miloshevich indeed faked elections, but only the post-1996 ones; one of the 3 governments of Krajina was elected, and the Bosnian Serb political leadership had significant support from the population. Montenegro was free-elected. The Ustashas must've had a large support from the people. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

P. S. Here's an ethnic map of Austro-Hungary

Serbian expansionistic movement is better phrase.
Unfortunately, westerners use word "nationalistic" as something negative; in former eastern literature, west. "nationalistic" is more to identify with east. "chauvinistic", while west. "nationally conscious" is approx to identify eastern "nationalistic".). If you don't believe me, see some marxism books (schoolbooks!) from the times of former YU (even 1980's); nationalism was not necessarily something bad! Kapitalistic powers don't like nationally awakened small countries, because then they can't easily rule over them.
Why is Serbia "on the carpet"? Fresher/actual case.
Ustashi support? Well, ustashe haven't became the ruling "party" according to the elections with over 95% majority and after 95% of population voted. Still, they were for pro-independent Croatia cause, which found a fertile ground among Croats. But, after contracts with fascist Italy, dissapointment was big, and many Croats turned to partisans. Then, before the organized partisan movement spread among people, many Croats' way to protect themselves was to join ustashe.
You'll ask: "Why? Whome to protect from?" After Axis attack on Yugoslavia, its military very quickly was crushed. So, people were returning to their homes. Officers running away... Why should the army fight? So, Croats were going back home. But, in the minds of Serbs, Croats were "not eager to fight for Yugoslavia", "treacherous", and many never reached their homes. Many were killed (and/or tortured to death) when they passed through Serb-populated areas (beside other, and in areas of Croatia and B&H). NDH was not established yet! Many local Serbs had weaponry (from military arsenals), and they acted as gangs, having their own bandit "courts"... Terrorist actions continued after mobilised Croats reached their homes. When NDH was proclaimed, it offered some kind of protection.
Then came famous "Dinarid-man" law: "Never forget - return back in full... and some more" (vrati milo za drago, pa još priko). Of course, all nations here now and hold to that law; it doesn't matter who started it and when all started, it's important what happened in the "turn before mine turn". And there you have it...
Partisan movement offered a solution, that had peaceful and happy future (I don't count the people who hardly waited the moment to "revenge", although they waited the moment to slay someone), but for many people it was too late. Kubura 10:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry?

Sorry, Kubura, but I have no idea what your last post meant. What were you talking about? --HolyRomanEmperor 15:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I've skipped the sentence. I spoke about:
1)Nationalism in Serbia, and why is better word "expansionism" than "nationalism".
2)Why is Serbia "on the carpet".
3)One of reasons for those who joined ustashi movement. Especially at the beginning of WW2 in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. What local Serbs and remnants of K.of Yu army soldiers were doing to returning mobilized Croats and local civilian Croats. As soon as NDH (a "independent" Croat state) was pronounced, they saw a protector in NDH military. So many 've joined. Kubura 16:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

But that has none connection to what I said previously... --HolyRomanEmperor 13:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Tell me which part confused you. Kubura 08:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The whole's connection with the ethnic map of Austro-Hungary; the removal of Serbs from Croatia in second Yugoslavia and SCG's ethnic minorities...! --HolyRomanEmperor 15:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That map has some serious "holes" and mistakes (I'm not only talking about the distribution of Croats and Serbs);I'll post you about that later.

[edit] Serb evacuation 1995

BTW, I've dug out from my books the official paper of rebel Serb authorities in Croatia, that relates to organized evacuation of Serbs, it is signed by Mile Paspalj, if I remember well. Later I'll tell you whole its numeration. Sincerely. Kubura 13:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

As I've promised, here are some sources. But I can't find where have I seen Mile Paspalj's document (relativly unknown person to mention it just like that, I haven't thought that up - nisam ga izmislio, relativno je "nepoznato" ime za ga tek tako reć).

Ovako, ima dokumenata Civilne zaštite pobunjenih Srba koji govore o već predviđenom evakuiranju stanovništva (to ću potlen iskopati), ali za prvu ruku, evo ti nekoliko izvora (i to srpskih) koji govore o planskom evakuiranju stanovništva/there are some documents of rebel Serbs' Civile Protection (Civilna Zaštita), that speak about an already prepared and predicted evacuation of population (I'll dig that out later), but, as a first step, here are some sources (Serb sources!) that speak about planned evacuation of population of rebel areas:

This order is given from the rebel Serb top authority on the day of Operation Storm. 5. August 1995.

  • RSK, Vrhovni savjet odbrane, Knin, 4. avgust 1995., 16.45 časova, Broj 2-3113-1/95. Faksimil ovog dokumenta objavljen je u/The faximile of this document was published in: Rade Bulat "Srbi nepoželjni u Hrvatskoj", Naš glas (Zagreb), br. 8.-9., septembar 1995., p. 90.-96. (faksimil je objavljen na stranici 93./the faximile is on the page 93.).

Vrhovni savjet odbrane RSK (The Supreme Council of Defense of Republic of Serb Krajina) brought a decision 4. August 1995 in 16.45. This decision was signed by Milan Martić and later verified in Glavni štab SVK (Headquarters of Republic of Serb Krajina Army) in 17.20.

I'll type you the original text later.

These orders are given two days before the Operation Storm, 02. August 1995.

  • RSK, Republički štab Civilne zaštite, Broj: Pov. 01-82/95., Knin, 02.08.1995., HDA, Dokumentacija RSK, kut. 265

This is the document of Republic headquarters of Civil Protection of RSK. In this document it was ordered to all subordinated headquaters of RSK to immediately give all reports about preparations for the evacuation, sheltering and taking care of evacuated civilians (evakuacija, sklanjanje i zbrinjavanje) (the deadline for the report was 3. August 1995 in 19 h).

  • RSK, Republički štab Civilne zaštite, Broj: Pov. 01-83/95., Knin, 02.08.1995., Pripreme za evakuaciju materijalnih, kulturnih i drugih dobara (The preparations for the evacuation of material, cultural and other goods), HDA, Dokumentacija RSK, kut. 265

This was the next order from the Republican HQ of Civil Protection. It was referred to all Municipal Headquaters of Civil Protection. In that document was ordered to all subordinated HQ's to implement the preparation of evacuation of all material and all mobile cultural goods, archives, evidentions and materials that are highly confidential/top secret, money, lists of valuable stuff (?)("vrednosni popisi") and referring documentations.

  • Drago Kovačević, "Kavez - Krajina u dogovorenom ratu" , Beograd 2003. , p. 93.-94.

Note: Drago Kovačević was during the existence of so-called RSK the minister of informing and the mayor of Knin (the capitol of self-proclaimed state)

  • Milisav Sekulić, "Knin je pao u Beogradu" , Bad Vilbel 2001., p. 171.-246., p. 179.

Note: Milisav Sekulić was a high military officer of "Srpska vojska Krajine" (Republic of Serb Krajina Army).

  • Marko Vrcelj, "Rat za Srpsku Krajinu 1991-95" , Beograd 2002., p. 212.-222.

Note: Marko Vrcelj was a military officer of JNA (later named: Vojska Jugoslavije - Army of FR Yugoslavia). During the wartime 1991-95, he was on the various military functions in "Srpska vojska Krajine" (Republic of Serb Krajina Army).

I've kept my word. Kubura 13:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

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