Talk:Kraken

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Discussion on reference to the colossal squid Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni. An edit in June 2005, suggested the kraken was based on this "recently discovered" squid. Well ignoring the fact that M. hamiltoni isn't recently discovered (it was described in 1925) there seems no reason to associate it with the kraken which was an animal from the North Atlantic. Fearless nation though they are, the Norwegians were not exploring the southern ocean until the 19th century so I somehow doubt the kraken (term first used at end of 17th century) owes its origins to sightings of M. hamiltoni by Scandinavians. So I have deleted ref to colossal squid.

The other issue people may want to discuss here is whether "kraken" should be "Kraken". I would argue that as almost all authors including Pontoppidan said there was more than one it should be "kraken". It is not given as a proper noun in the OED. In its earliest use in English it is capitalised but then so were lots of other nouns as well and in context it is clearly being used as a noun rather than a proper noun. Tennyson, of course, uses it as a proper noun. But he was a poet and so is not really an appropriate authority on such an important matter :-) Longfellow (1862) treated it as a noun proving that not all poets are so flakey on sea monsters.

I suppose the parallel to follow might be Leviathan.--Wetman 3 July 2005 19:18 (UTC)

They appear to be using "Kraken" with a capital K in Norwegian, and that language use capitalizations more economically than English. "Kraken" is actually the noun krake in definite form, i.e. "Kraken" = "the Krake". On the other hand, "The ship was sunken by the Kraken, arrgg!" could be contrasted with "The ship was sunken by the lightning, arrgg!" That is, Kraken is more like a phenomenon than an animal ... or something like that Template:Tongue

I looked "krake" up in Norsk Ordbok [1] and also in Svenska Akademiens Ordbok [2] [3], which is a little more extensive. Both give the etymology as "krake: diseased or deformed animal", which in turn comes from a word for a ditto tree trunk. Salleman 3 July 2005 19:51 (UTC)

Hmm.. actually the Leviathan thing is an interesting insight. "leviathan" means "twisted/coiled" and so does "krake" (in their respective times). Pontoppidan, being a bishop and a scholar probably knew this. Perhaps he invented the name kraken as a translation of leviathan to 'biblicize' folk-beliefs, so to speak? This is pure speculation on my part of course, but Wallenberg seems to be making this connection as well. I'll see if I can find some real reference on this. BluePlatypus 17:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Pending tasks for Kraken 2 Suggestions 3 Kraken according to Nordisk familjebok 4 "Death" of Kraken 5 Miscellaneous necessary? 6 Reverted anon 7 Removed the Suikoden II reference 8 Now this has become a serious article 9 Merge Articles? 10 Fished on Kraken? 11 Gah! 12 Kraken and Cthulhu

[edit] Pending tasks for Kraken

1. Find someone who can translate the following from Örvar-Odds saga:

Vignir sagði: "Rétt þykkir mér þér fara vit eptir vexti. Nú mun ek segja þér, at þetta eru sjóskrímsl tvau. Heitir annat hafgufa, en annat lyngbakr. Er hann mestr allra hvala í heiminum, en hafgufa er mest skrímsl skapat í sjónum. Er þat hennar náttúra, at hún gleypir bæði menn ok skip ok hvali ok allt þat hún náir. Hún er í kafi, svá at dægrum skiptir, ok þá hún skýtr upp höfði sínu ok nösum, þá er þat aldri skemmr en sjávarfall, at hún er uppi. Nú var þat leiðar sundit, er vér fórum á millum kjapta hennar, en nasir hennar ok inn neðri kjaptrinn váru klettar þeir, er yðr sýndist í hafinu, en lyngbakr var ey sjá, er niðr sökk. En Ögmundr flóki hefir sent þessi kvikvendi í móti þér með fjölkynngi sinni til þess at bana þér ok öllum mönnum þínum. Hugði hann, at svá skyldi hafa farit fleiri sem þeir, at nú drukknuðu, en hann ætlaði, at hafgufan skyldi hafa gleypt oss alla. Nú siglda ek því í gin hennar, at ek vissa, at hún var nýkomin upp. Nú höfum vér getat sét við þessum vélum Ögmundar, en þó er þat mín hyggja, at af honum hljótir þú verst allra manna,"

Here's my attempt at partial translation. I've havent studied this language, but it's somewhat simulare to Icelandic.

Vignir sagði: "Rétt þykkir mér þér fara vit eptir vexti.
Vignir said: You speak as your knowledge reaches.

Nú mun ek segja þér, at þetta eru sjóskrímsl tvau. Heitir annat hafgufa, en annat lyngbakr.
Now I'll tell you this, that these are seamonsters two. One named hafgufa, and the other lyngbakr.

Er hann mestr allra hvala í heiminum, en hafgufa er mest skrímsl skapat í sjónum.
He is the greatest of all whales in the world, but hafhufa is the most monster created at sea.

Er þat hennar náttúra, at hún gleypir bæði menn ok skip ok hvali ok allt þat hún náir.
It's in her nature, that she swallows both men and ship and whales and everything she reaches.

Hún er í kafi, svá at dægrum skiptir, ok þá hún skýtr upp höfði sínu ok nösum, þá er þat aldri skemmr en sjávarfall, at hún er uppi.
She is under the sea/she is diving, for days and days, and then she shoots up her head and nose, then there is never skemmr en tide, that she is up.

Nú var þat leiðar sundit, er vér fórum á millum kjapta hennar, en nasir hennar ok inn neðri kjaptrinn váru klettar þeir, er yðr sýndist í hafinu, en lyngbakr var ey sjá, er niðr sökk.
The passage we went throu, was beteen her mouths and her noses and lower jaw were what seemed to be cliffs in the sea, but lyngbakur was an island that sank in the sea.

En Ögmundr flóki hefir sent þessi kvikvendi í móti þér með fjölkynngi sinni til þess at bana þér ok öllum mönnum þínum.
But Ögmundr flóki has sent this beast against you with his magic to kill you and all your men.

Hugði hann, at svá skyldi hafa farit fleiri sem þeir, at nú drukknuðu, en hann ætlaði, at hafgufan skyldi hafa gleypt oss alla.
He expected that more whould have drowned, but ment to have Hafgufan swallowing thouse who didn't.

Nú siglda ek því í gin hennar, at ek vissa, at hún var nýkomin upp.
I was therefor sailing in her open mouth, since I knew, that she had just come up.

Nú höfum vér getat sét við þessum vélum Ögmundar, en þó er þat mín hyggja, at af honum hljótir þú verst allra manna,"
We have now been able to avoid this magic sent by Ögmund, but it is to my relief, that from him you hljótir worst of all men.

I hope you find someone to correct this and translate the rest. Internet 09:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

2. Find Pontoppidan's description of Kraken. It doesn't appear to be anywhere online. Not in English, nor in Danish.

[edit] Suggestions

IMHO, this article really needs some work. First off, it should be clear that this is folklore, more specifically Norwegian folklore. It is not part of Swedish folklore, AFAICT, despite Wallenberg quote. The Wallenberg quote seems somewhat misleading as well. The author is clearly being humorous, and is essentially making fun of superstitious fishermen and Pontoppidan. It would be better to quote Pontoppidan directly, since that's the primary source here. Wallenberg has no doubt exaggerated for comical effect, as well.

The link to the norse sagas seems specious. Kraken is a sea-monster. The norwegian Sagas had sea monsters. Apart from that, I can's see any reason to believe they are the same. Is this about the Kraken myth or about scandinavian sea-monsters in general?

The link to HP Lovecraft should go. It's pure speculation, which has no place in a Wikipedia article. It's fine to report on the speculation of others - so write WHO supposed that Tennyson inspired Lovecraft, or get rid of it. The same goes for Tolkien. No original research and all that. User:BluePlatypus

Two simple google searches provided me with the sources for point three. Point one and two are basically what the "pending tasks" above are about. Pontoppidan would be better than Wallenberg, but I am unable to track down his work. The quote above might describe two creatures called Hafgufa and Lyngbakr, who are very large and floats on the sea like islands. When men land upon them, they return back to the depths, thus drowning all upon them. This sounds like a forerunner to Kraken of Pontopiddan. --Salleman 08:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I should perhaps underline that I don't mind references to fiction, but they need to be attributed and presented as "some[reference] consider it likely that Kraken may have inspired X" or similar. And not "it is likely that Kraken.. etc". (On another note: There should probably be a seperate section for 'Kraken in fiction' or something, to distinguish the actual folklore from the fiction it inspired. As for Hafgufa and Lyngbakr it's not enough that you think it 'sounds like a forerunner' because of Wikipedia's no original research policy. I think you'll need to find a reference to someone else making that connection. However, there are certainly sea-creatures in Pontopiddan which stem from the time of the Sagas: giant sea-snakes. BTW: Does anyone know who/what the sources earlier than Pontopiddan are? The Norwegian 'kraken' page says that Pontopiddan was first. BluePlatypus 17:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the Danish page brought me onto the Hafgufa tread. Do as you wish with it. Currently, the article falsely states that Kraken is plural. Kraken is definite article form: Kraken = The Krake, (and Krakes = kraker). I strongly get the impression from secondary accounts that Pontopiddan's Kraken is a one-of-a-kind creature, like Leviathan. The Krake would be correct, but a neologism in English, thus I have used Kraken as a proper noun when editing this article. Please leave comments on this. --Salleman 20:25, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, "Kraken" is definitely definite-form singular and nothing else. That should be pointed out, although there's no need to elaborate too much on the linguistics. (the curious can always go to the norwegian language page for that) It's perhaps noteworthy in this context that "krake" also exists in Swedish with the meaning "bläckfisk". But by all accounts this usage started after Pontopiddan and stems from the name of the mythical animal and not vice-versa. I agree that "the Kraken" is correct in english. By this time, it's entered common usage. BluePlatypus 16:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kraken according to Nordisk familjebok

For your consideration, I have translated the Swedish PD encyclopedia Nordisk familjebok's article on Kraken. [4] This is as close to Pontoppidan I can come at the moment. Any strange English are likely translational errors. --Salleman 21:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Kraken [the krake, the critter, the wretch] or Horven [the horv alt. the horve, I've never seen the word before], a fabulous sea monster of which E. Pontoppidan, supported by the tales of Norwegian fishermen, could tell remarkable things in Norges naturlige historie (1752—53). So, when fishermen on some hot summer day had rowed a few miles of the coast and according to common measurement should have found the bottom at 80–100 fathoms, it sometimes happen that the plumb stops at 20–30 fathoms. But in these waters are to be found the most abundant swarms of cod and ling. Then you can be sure that kraken rests down there; it is he who comprises the artificial raise in the ocean floor and with his excrements attracts the fish. But should the fishing people note that kraken hoists himself, they must swiftly move away. After a few minutes, the beast can be seen with the upper parts of his body lifted above the surface, which on 2.5 km distance appear as a collection of submerged rocks, draped in flowing seaweed-like outgrowths. Lastly can be seen some gleaming, towards the base increasingly thicker tips (or tentacles) who can even be as high as the mast of a ship. After a while, kraken again sink down, and one must then be careful not to be caught in the whirlpool he generates. (Cf. J. Furö, Fra Ishavets kyster, p. 9 ff.) Possibly, giant sea-polyps [Cephalopods?] have given rise to this tale.

Salleman, you'd better work the fishermen's description into a paragraph and edit it into the article (crediting Nordisk familjebok), shouldn't you? --Wetman 02:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Sea-polyps - could mean jellyfish? BluePlatypus 16:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

From the same source: "Polyps (greek polypos, with many feet). In zoology, the name for numerous Cœlenterata and corals." A giant jellyfish. Well, that's a theory too, I guess. --Salleman 06:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. May I suggest replacing the Wallenberg quote with this one, perhaps? Having several re-tellings of Pontopiddan's story seems redundant to me, and the Familjebok one is probably closer to the original anyway, since Wallenberg has a less serious tone. BluePlatypus 16:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Death" of Kraken

I found this rather interesting link, which mentions how the Kraken, sea-serpents and other folkelore myths were reglated to myth status during the Enlightenment. There's a citation of Johan Ernst Gunnerus: Critiske Tanker om Kraken, Søeormen og nogle flere Vidunder i Havet ('Critical thoughts on Kraken, the Sea-serpent and several other sea-monsters') from 1784. I think it's worth mentioning. So I guess in summary one could put the story of Kraken as "1) pre-18th century: Various folk-tales 2) Early 18th century: Kraken given authoriative form by Pontoppidan 3) Late 18th century: Discredited and regulated to mythological status 4) 19th century, revived in romantic fiction" .. quite a journey :) BluePlatypus 17:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous necessary?

Is the Miscellaneous section really necessary? Right now it seems to overlap the Kraken (disambiguation) page, which is linked right there at the top. Retodon8 21:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted anon

I just reverted this from an anon vandal:

Another description, by the Bishop of Bergen, Erik Ludvigsen Pontoppidan, in his "The Natural History of Norway" described it as a "floating island" one and a half miles across. "It seems these are the creatures's arms, and, it is said, if they were to lay hold of the largest man-of-war, they would pull it down to the bottom"

If it is actually useful to the article feel free to put it back in. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 21:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed the Suikoden II reference

There are no talking Kraken in Suikoden II. Nor does the player have a navy. It's possible that this is a reference to Suikoden THREE (which I have never played), but regardless, I have removed it as it is incorrect.

Taear

[edit] Now this has become a serious article

I applaud the iniciative of someone else for removing that totally needless section of popular references to the myth/moster. None of those references played a major role in increasing the popularity of the monster, but were, from my point of view, a mere result of its popularity. For example, including in the shark article a reference to the film would be justified, but including references to every game/novel featuring a shark would not. Also, I got the feeling that the only purpose that section was achieving was advertising games and films were the Kraken itself wasn't even playing a major role. Thereby, I'm opposing the revertion/reinsertion of that section in this article. DrJones 12:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Kraken is a specific mythological creature; that distinguishes it from (real) sharks that would likely have many, many more references.

I do agree that the list was excessive, though. I've thrown in a sentence for the introduction that says Kraken has been seen often in fiction (which it has), and I'll leave it at that. --Crazysunshine 05:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the popular culture-section was interesting and it is a common section in all articles about cryptids and legendary creatures. I resurrected that section as a new article and linked to it from this page. I hope that could be a good compromise for everybody! --Danielos2 08:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Articles?

I think that, because of the similarity of the articles, Lusca should be merged to this article. Since Kraken is the more well-known name, a search for "Lusca" could be directed here, and a section could be put on this page regarding the Lusca. But the pages are so similar: same picture, same quotation.... NCartmell 00:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, Lusca needs to be cleaned up. There are no historical links between the two monsters. The only link is the same purported cause but that is speculation.

This has already been discussed. The connection is that both may be giant octopi, but in both cases, some of the earlier identifications were not cephalopods, e.g. the Lusca was sometimes described as being dragon like, and the kraken as having crab-like characteristics.--MacRusgail 19:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. They are analogous, nothing more, and thus providing a link in the "See also" section is enough. Serendipodous 07:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fished on Kraken?

'If a fisherman had an unusually good catch, they used to say to each other, "You must have fished on Kraken." '

Can we have a source on this? Sounds suspiciously like a joke to me. Maybe not a funny one. ACDavis 00:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gah!

Who wrote that giant squid prey upon sperm whales!? Sheesh, how atrocious. Someone recommend why this sentence should not be completely and utterly destroyed forever, or I shall be forced to take the necessary measures. What if some poor middle-schooler comes to this site and puts that in a paper of his? Bah!

Cupbearer 08:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Good catch - a very quick glance at the giant squid article shows that the hunter-prey relationship is the other way round. I've removed the "(such as sperm whales)" bit. Carre 16:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kraken and Cthulhu

I have a theory that Cthulhu may be based on the legend of the Kraken, as it has some similarities. Does anyone know of any other reference to this effect? Berimbau1 22:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)