Talk:Kosovo/Archive 7

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Road to compromise?

I am not one of the participants in this dispute and revert war, but I want to help you to find compromise instead of constant revert wars. Here is the proposal: why not discuss your changes one by one, and solve problems one by one. Here I will list the various disputes from the article and the users who participate in this edit war could discuss these problems one by one PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem 1: Serbian or Albanian name in infobox

My opinion is that since both, Albanian and Serbian language are official in Kosovo, both names should be written. I do not have opinion whether Albanian or Serbian name should be written first (other users should discuss about that here). PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Both names could be used, but no "Metohija", as that is not recognized by any international body (besides Russian govt)Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
as this article is in English, I propose to use the English name only. So Kosovo only. I agree with ilir_pz about the Metohija part, which should not be used. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Asterion getting frustrated? Does it irritate you that we Albanians are united for one cause more than ever in history? I will write under my name as long as I can, and it will always be Ilir, as that is my given birth-name. Ilir pz 00:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm okay with the albanian names, as long as there are serbian ones also. The order doesn't matter.

Since Kosovo is officially part of Serbia, we need to use serbian official name for that teritory, and that is "Kosovo i Metohija". Since this is english language site, this name should be converted to english, and that is "Kosovo and Metohija".

we could use both names, but no "Kosovo and Metohija". that is not recognized by any international body and it is just the idea of serbian ultranationalism. it is absolutely not accepted by the ethnic albanians in Kosova or anywhere else! the international name or english name shouldn`t be Kosovo or Kosovo and Metohija, because that is the serbian name, and in Kosova almost 90 % of people are albanians, and they call it Kosova. I mean, we could use both names, and not just the serbian designation. that means: Kosova|Kosovo or Kosovo|Kosova is fair enough. --Mig11 09:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Problem 2: map in infobox

I also do not have opinion which one of the two maps should be included, so, please post the arguments why one of them should be here instead of another. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

As long as the status is not defined, the map where Kosovo is within the map of SCG should NOT be used. Instead a compromise could be using a map where Kosovo is clearly seen in the map of Europe, but not as a part of SCG. No way! Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It is better to have a map where people can see where Kosovo is located in Europe, and not be marked as a part of any country, as it is not. Let the status definitions clear that out later, even in the map. Below somewhere there could be a map showing the locations in Kosovo itself. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo and Metohija should be represented inside the map of Serbia & Monte Negro. WHY??? ... Starting from the meaning of the word "Kososvo", meaning "Black bird" in Serbo-Croatian language, while in Albanian language it never had an understandable meaning. Kosovo is purely part of the Serbian historic heriditary, since centuries ago. We just need to bring back in time the Battle of Kosovo, where the Serbians fought the Ottoman Empire. The Serbian Orthodox Church headquoters were located in Peja till 1945. How everything started? How Kosovo became Albanian, and how did it lose its Serbian people? The Albanians that inhibit nowdays Kosovo, are highlanders, which during the Ottoman Empire conquest of the Ballkans stepped down from the Northern Albanian Alps to the field of Kosovo. They were Catholics, in their begining of invasion, but were forced to be converted to Muslims, so they did not have to pay taxes and at the same time did not have to participate in the Ottoman Empire armies. At the same time their conversion to Muslims was positively proclaimed by the Ottoman policies, since the Serbian population was and remained through centuries of Christian Orthodox religion. In what other way can be explained the islamic religion in countries such as Bosnia & Hercegovina, Albania and in the Serbian territory of Kosovo and Metohija, the fact that their populations are mostly made by Muslims, surrounded by Orthodox countries?! The second thing, that influenced the Albanian domination in Kosovo, is the fact that even today the birth rate of the Albanians in Kosovo is too high compared to the other inhabitants of Kosovo. This has happened for centuries, and ecxplains very well how the percentage of Serbians and Albanians is this one that results today. As an Albanian of Albania, i consider the independence of Kosovo as very dangerous for the future of Europe. If it happens that Kosovo and Metohija gets united with Albania, the balance in region is going to lose and at the same time, the highlanders of Kosovo will do the same to the inhabitats of Albania as what they did to the Serbians of Kosovo.

First of all, status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. Since Kosovo and Metohija is officialy part of Serbia, and since this article belongs to category "Disputed teritories" (note TERITORIES), that TERITORY should be displayed as a part of state to which it belongs. Map on the right is so called political map (map which display state borders and nothing else), and it is perfect for part of article in which it resides. Map in Geography section is just as it should be. Since this part of article is talking about geography, map is larger, with geographical details. Political situation is not important here. So, if you ask me, both maps are perfect, and should not be changed.

That is not true! The status of Kosova is not yet defined! And the name of the country is not Kosova and Metohija! You sound like people who had a brainwash by the serbian press agencys! I mean a little bit like Asterion. I agree in this point with Ilir pz and User:Mark ma: As long as the status is not defined, the map where Kosovo is within the map of SCG should NOT be used. --Mig11 09:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Problem 3: The preface part

The dispute here is how status of Kosovo is currently defined, so please discuss this question here. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

International interim administration in Kosovo, and as a result the govts that have installed it, referr to it as a "territory under UN administration". That is what it says in my travel document, that is how people send me mail "Kosovo(UNMIK)" etc. Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know Kosovo is a UN administered region, and not a part of any country. Let me know if I did not hear any status talks being concluded, and I've been asleep for a long time. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

As i have sad in Problem 2., status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. "It is not part of any country" is at least stupid, because it is impossible not to be part of any country. If it is not part of any country, then it is a country, and Kosovo and Metohija is not a country, so it must be a part of some country. And that is Serbia. Just see the phone dialing codes. Serbia's is +381. Guess what is for Kosovo and Metohija. Of course +381. So, there is a two possible situation - Serbia is part of Kosovo and Metohija, which is not, and Kosovo and Metohija is part of Serbia, which is.

That is not true again! Kosova now is not part of any country. And the name Kosovo and Metohija exists just in the heads of Serbian ultranationalists and it should not be used here. Just like Ilir pz mentioned: in the travel documents it is written: "territory under UN administration" - UNMIK. That means now it is not under Serbian administration. You forgot about this phone dialing code: +377, it is used by the most people in Kosova, and guess what: it is not Serbia’s phone dialing code. --Mig11 09:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Problem 4: KLA and ethnic cleansing in the preface part

Well, for the NPOV presentation, both the reference to the "separatist KLA by then considered a terrorist organization" and to the "Serbian Army attempted to purge the region of ethnic Albanians" should be removed from preface part by my opinion as clear "bad faith" edits. You discuss these four questions for now, and if you find compromise about them, we can move to other questions. I will not further participate in the discussion about these four questions, I just offered my proposals how to solve them. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Saying who is a terrorist in a war is very subjective. If we count number of wars and attrocities JNA is the worst terrorist organization. No definition of terrorism should be mentioned in this article, if we are to be neutral. Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think commenting this is too much. I don't recall KLA having gone to Kragujevac attacking the local population there. If I am not mistaken it was paramilitary, police, and military units of Serbia who did that in Kosovo. So let us not dig in now as the truth is recognized by all the world...hence the bombing of terrorists by NATO. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, the fun of my day, keep going. You entertain me more than anyone these days. Wish we could have a coffee together in a Prizren caféIlir pz 00:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, why do you call yourself Ilir. The only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian origin are Croats, and some Serbs. Unsigned edit by User:Gianni ita

Thanks for wondering Gianni_ita, but that is my given birthname. You are not God of History to tell me who CAN and who CANNOT claim to be of some origin. No need to comment further with you. regards,Ilir pz 00:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see. So that doesn't have to do anything with the Illyrians. Gianni_ita

Gianni_ita, trying to piss me off? nah, not gonna work. Thank for trying. Others, anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
They should be removed. Simple as this: you have full equipped police and army forces with all facilities, heavy artillery employed and air power available, and you have wanna-be army with light artillery and light infantry weapons. You do not have to be too smart to realise that power ratio was in favor of Yugoslav forces, so any attempt of ethnic cleansing would not be an attempt, but short and successfull action. KLA was not a powerfull military organization, so they could not stop any attempt of anything (or they could for a very short time, until heavy artillery arrive). Do not forget that it is not KLA who make Yugoslav forces to retreat from Kosovo and Metohija, but NATO. On the other side. KLA was considered as terrorist organization by the US government in 1998. But, OK, they believe they have fought for their freedom. Also, confirmed number of victims is far from any thoughts of ethnic cleansing. Another reason to remove is to make less reasons for edit wars. nirvanisti25
to User:Gianni ita: Are you kidding: Croats and Serbs claim to be of Illyrian origin? I mean they came in the Balkans at the VII century, and Illyrians were already there! Maybe the only part of Croatia where people live with the Illyrian origin is in Dalmacia. Albanians do have Illyrian origin. You can see that also in the birth names they use like: Ilir, Agron (Illyrian king), Teuta (Illyrian queen), Norik, etc. These names are used in Balkans only by Albanian people. And the Illyrian language was not Slavic.
So now what bout KLA: if this article should be neutral, we shouldn’t use any definition of terrorism. I mean the whole world knows what paramilitary, police, and military units of Serbia did in Kosovo. And I am not talking here just for those couple of months, until NATO made them to retreat. The Yugoslavian police and army committed war crimes on Albanian civilian for years before Kosova war began, at least since 1981. I mean, no one can compare that with what KLA did: they actually tried to protect the civilian from the Serbian paramilitary. Maybe they also did massacres on civilians, but that should be proved in the future by international laws.
Summary: we shouldn’t use any definition of terrorism.--Mig11 10:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

Dear Dardanv and others. First of all you don't have to be anonymous, and you don't have to do ridiculous threats. We can do a "wiki-war" if you want, I don't want it. You know I'm from a country who stoped participate in wars 1814!!! Still your are provocative and an extremist which I think is because there is alot of missunderstanding and ethnic phobia. I don't belong to any side and I don't sympathize with any more then the NPOV side. Everybody should be heard and not denied. So common.. I hope we can bury ALL nationalism and hatred with Milošević, even from your side (and please don't deny that it exist). Kosovo is lost to Serbia now (is what I belive) and then anybody can have their thoughts about it. But the most important thing is that all could work for a better future (without nationalism) in the Balkans. The world is not better until it is done. I think you can contribute most, in your own country. So why not prove you are better then the Serb nationalists and teach and support the NPOV side? If you want to continue with adding Albanian extremism into other articels and reverting we can sadly continue. But I hope/wish/beg you not... many thanks Litany

Anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

This is my opinion on PANONIANs proposal to compromise: 1. I think it should just be Kosovo, since this is the English version of Wikipedia. Or maybe Kosovo and then Albanian and Serbian? 2. I think the map over Serbia and Montenegro as long as Kosovo is a part of it. 3. It is "a province of Serbia and Montenegro, currently under UN administration", which is the truth. 4. I agree that it should be removed.. if you ask me if KLA is a terror organisation I would say yes, and JNA was not much better... Litany

1. Name should be Kosovo. 2. map should show where Kosovo is located in the region, but as it is not decided which country it belongs to, I don't think we should incorporate it in a map of Serbia. 4. We could check whether KLA is listed as a terrorist organization, and if yes, we list it as such in our article. (p.s. Don't check Serbian sourcs, please, let us keep neutral)

And to stress smth out to Litany, it is not a province of Serbia :), it is a territory under UN administration, as defined by UNMIK. Find one place in their official website [1] where they mention it being a province of Serbia, and then we can discuss further. Let us respect Kosovo institutions which were democratically elected, and edit the article accordingly. Ben uk 10:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please note User:Ben uk is one of the Suspected sockpuppets of Ilir pz. Asterion 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Frustrated Asterion again. You make my day:)Ilir pz 00:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Not sure it is worth replying to Asterion, but I will. First, yes, we have the same opinion with ilir_pz and many more, on the issues mentioned above. Eventually, if status negotiations fail, I will prove to you that 99% of Albanians in Kosova will share my view, with a referendum. That will shut the mouth to all those who don't want to see Kosova prosper. And as of your suspicion, based on using smileys, can't say much. Smileys have been around for a long time. And wide smileys, too, like the one I get when reading your frustrated comments :)))))). Ben uk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

So, I suggest that you change in both versions things about which both sides agreed (To write only English name Kosovo in infobox, and to remove POV parts about Kosovo war from preface part), and then try to find compromise about another questions. PANONIAN (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That is ok, PANONIAN, but when it comes to mentioning cities and locations of Kosovo, I suggest we use the double-naming system (Alb/Sr), as it is not fair using the Serbian notation and say "it is English". Do we also agree to remove any comments which are not unsigned? best,Ben uk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats in other talk pages have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 00:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You cannot remove comments posted by other people on the talk pages (it is against the rules of Wikipedia). As for city naming, until the final status of Kosovo is solved, I cannot say in what language names should be written for the cities. According to 1244 resolution, Kosovo is autonomous territory within Serbia-Montenegro, and currently Serbia-Montenegro have only one official language - Serbian. There are two possible solutions fot the final status of Kosovo:

  • 1. independence, and
  • 2. confederation of 3 republics (Serbia, Montenegro, and Kosovo).

In both cases Albanian will be one of the official state languages, and in that case names of the Kosovo cities with Albanian majority should be written in Albanian, and names of the Kosovo cities with Serbian majority in Serbian. However, at the present moment, Albanian is only "regional language", and not "state language", and English usually use names from one of the state languages. But, since every naming solution is only temporar in this case (until the final solution for Kosovo), I will wait that solution to say my opinion how cities should be named. The worst thing of course is to have twin articles about these cities, one in Serbian and another in Albanian, like Rahovec-Orahovac, Kačanik-Kaçanik, Deqani-Dečani, etc. PANONIAN (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

But PANONIAN is it against the rules to just drop a line, without signing it as well? I think such lines should be discarded. Let me know which rule precedes which, as I am not familiar. Regarding the possible solutions to Kosovo status I can tell you that there is only ONE solution, that is full independence for Kosovo, with securing rights for the minorities. Kosova used to be in a quazi federation, which did not work well. What makes you think Kosova that comprises a population of more than 90% non-slavic want to be in a confederation with Serbia and Montenegro, whereas other ex-YU republics which are mainly slavic ones seceded already? Regarding naming of cities, it is not the worst thing to have a double naming system. At least until Kosovo administration decides about that in the future. Resolution 1244 does NOT mention Serbia and Montenegro ANYWHERE, as that country did not exist back then :). Official languages in Kosovo have always been Albanian, and Serbian, and even Turkish. We had a triple naming system of cities, which is the case even now in the streets of Kosovo. So state language cannot be only serbian. No way.Ilir pz 22:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, there are so many Albanians in Italy and in some parts of Switzerland that you are going to ask for the independence of these areas also very soon. There is nothing except for the high number of Albanians in Kosovo (I repeat again, after the WWII there were as many Serbs as Albanians in Kosovo, but that situation changed drastically, because of the reasons that have been mentioned before), that gives you right to claim this region. I know you know that.

About the resolution 1244. You were right Ilir, it doesn't mention Serbia and Montenegro anywhere, but it does mention Yugoslavia, which is the same thing.

Gianni ita 15:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

As of population being the same number of albanians and serbs, please check page 46 of this book [2]. It is a non-Albanian writer, and the sources he mentions are diverse. Please give me some more credible sources than serbian census of that year, which of course was made by whom??? OSCE-like organisation? of course not. Thank you, Ilir pz 16:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Here Ilir, http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm Gianni ita 21:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

And, it's me again. No need to discuss any more about the resolution 1244. On the NATO's website there is a whole resolution with all the small changes made by NATO. It clearly says that KOSOVO IS PART OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA (SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO), CURRENTLY ADMINISTERED BY THE UN INTERNATIONAL FORCES.

http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm

Gianni ita 15:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Gianni, albanians did not ask for independence out of pure wish, they were forced to do so. I do not think Switzerland or Italy are going to fill their rivers with trucks loaded with killed Albanian elder and women and children, nor open mass graves close to Alps´ slopes with hundreds of bodies of innocents. So don´t compare it unnecesarily with your example. As of reasons why population changed, that I have tried to explain to you several times. Besides low natality rate of Serbs, economical reasons drove them to move away to a more developed region such as Belgrade etc. Kosovo Serbs will have to get used that the majority is going to rule from 1999 and on. It will be tough for them, as they were overpriviledged during years of Serbian installed regimes in Kosovo, but with time they will get used to it. if not, none can stop them from relocating where they feel more confident. As of 1244, that is of temporar nature. Many have stressed out, even the UN admin in Kosovo, that there will be a new Sec.Council resolution soon. I agree to keep it there, as it will soon be a part of recent history of Kosovo. Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Both Serbs and Albanians from Kosovo had their trucks loaded with their opponents, as you describe it. Both sides are guilty. Serbs killed more than Albanians did, but Albanians drove away a massive amount of Serbs (but as i said earlier, croats and bosnian muslims killed 10 times more serbs in the wwii, than serbs killed croats and bosnian muslims this last war, but that doesn't make any of the sides more or less guilty, they should both be ashamed and should pay a price for these crimes). so why would kosovo be independent, i'm asking you again?

And one more thing, Albanians were always privileged under Tito's regime. I have a friend who is Gorani from Dragas (southern Kosovo) and whose family escaped from Kosovo a long time ago, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, and there are many other families like his, it's not the living standard that made them move to Belgrade.

Gianni ita 18:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure of any evidence trucks were loaded with Serbian civilian bodies and put on the riverbed of any rivers in Kosova, or Albania. Nevertheless, I do not approve of any killing or any oppression. Answering to you why Kosovo should be independent, I could only give you a link for a brief explanation. It is a person I share my view with, and explains it quite clear [3]. Reasons people move are diverse as I said. I am not sure of any special programme by Academy of Science and arts of Kosova to drive Goranis or Serbs out, like the document I pinpointed to you above, and which of course you did not read. Try to read a bit and then ask questions, not just pose questions like "why should Kosovo be independent". Not sure how difficult it should be to understand why. And to those that give me the "The second Albanian state should not be formed" I give you a simple answer: Austria, Germany, and Switzerland can, France, Switzerland, and Belgium can. Kosovo can and will become independent, and of course rights of minirities will be respected. This shall not mean the killers among those minorities can return. NEVER. Their place is in jails, and then die there alone just like Milosevic. Ilir pz 19:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh my god, could not help notice the "Albanians were always privileged under Tito's regime", Gianni. It really makes me feel bad that I am wasting my time replying to you, you seem to not know anything about the recent past of Yugoslavia, and Kosovo's situation in it. First of all, Kosovo, with 90% of its population being non-Slavic (like the rest of ex-YU were) was deprived of the status of a Republic. Population-wise it had much more than Monenegro, but still. Intellectuals were persecuted and killed by the secret service of ex-Yug. Patriotic families were harrassed and made to flee Kosovo. Kosovo remained the most undeveloped part of ex-Yug (read: the least investments from the shared Federal fund), and Serbia sucked from it lots of minerals and coal from its rich underground. Want more? I will not give YOU more, until you read something and tell me what you read, and where you got the questions from. Hope you learned something for today (at least)Ilir pz 19:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO ILIR: OK, I read the web site that you recommended me. The only thing is that only albanian kosovars have a word there. I can give you some ultra nationalist Serbian sites and you'll see the completely different picture, but neither of these are true, the sooner you realize that, the better it will be for your own education. The books that you read in school, they were written by some Albanian Kosovar who was a part of the infamous UCK (KLA). You, the people of Kosovo (especially of albanian origin), ought to learn more from Western European books.

You have to admit, like I admited, that both Serbian army and albanian kosovar army bear the same responsibility. Or at least, that both commited disastrous crimes. A lot of people who have were responsible will never be put on a trial, and among them were your leader, who should have died like Milosevic, Ibrahim Rugova, and Hasim Taci, who is one of the negotiators for the albanian kosovars (UNBELIEVABLE!!)(He is wanted by both serbian and macedonian police but he will never be convicted, unfortunately)

Who mentioned kosovo's academy of science and arts? As far as I know, these people don't declare wars. And they certainly don't make plans about how to finance and support separatist organizations. They have a lot of better things to do.

Let's go back to Tito now. Read a little bit more about him on any page you want, and you'll see his policies about Kosovo. Yes, Albanians were privileged under his regime. More...Kosovo was never a republic, just an autonomous province of Serbia (you impress me with how much you know).

And after every time you say that there are 90% of Albanians in Kosovo now, I will repeat after you, after the WWII there was the same number of serbs and albanians. But, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, a lot of Serbs, Roma, and Gorani's left this region. And you can check that here . http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm

And about Kosovo being poor... Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines.

Gianni ita 21:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines." You sir are a moron. Read that a few times and you will see that your logic is that of a simian. And please stop posting some hacks writings as facts. Firstly, KLA has not committed even a fraction of atrocities the serbs did in Kosova.Everyone who has a brain knows that.

IN RESPONSE TO THIS UNSIGNED OFFENSE. First, i don't want to feed trolls. Autonomous doesn't mean independent. Serbia took a lot and gave a lot more to it's autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. Wheat from another autonomous province, Vojvodina feeds all the Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo gives minerals.... Gianni ita 19:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Preface (negotiations part)

I think we should agree that the status talks held in Vienna now are between the delegations of two democratically elected governments, that of Serbia and Kosova. user: Asterion is reverting that part continuously. Serbian govt is not talking to Albanian "people" randomly selected in the streets of Kosovo, but those are ministers, heads or members of political parties of Kosovo. Opinion (for now, Asterions not) needed. And please, if you are not from Kosovo, and base your arguments on your life experience IN KOSOVO, then try to prove why you think what you´re saying is so, as it is not fair anyone from Andalusia or Chile to come and drop opinions here. This is a sensitive issue, and I ask for more understanding from non-Kosovo citizens. Thank you, Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Progress

It is nice that progress was made regarding preface part and infobox. Now please, Ilir pz and Gianni ita, you should not discuss here whether Kosovo should be independent or not, but concrete disputes about article. So, please tell me what are the other disputed parts of the article, since I see that nobody reverting it now. As for the names of the articles about Kosovo cities, I just said my opinion how they should be named at the present moment, but I really do not care whether names of these articles would be in Serbian or Albanian. So, Ilir pz, it is not me with whom you should to argue about that. PANONIAN (talk) 03:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

A lot more neutral article

Panonian, I didn't even notice the new version of the article because of constant arguing with Ilir.

This article is a lot better than the previous one. Whoever wrote it did a good job to represent both Serbian and Albanian Kosovar side.

The only two things that I disapprove of are: 1. In 1912 during the Balkan Wars, Kosovo and Albania were conquered by Serbia while eastern part of Kosovo was captured by Montenegro. Serbia aimed at ethnically cleansing Kosovo of its Albanian population.... Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era.

The expulsion did happen in the 1912, but it didn't continue until 1999. Those were two waves, not a continous one. In the meawhile there were also waves of expulsion of Serbian population, as you mentioned. Gianni ita 19:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This must be the only expulsion in recorded history which increased the size of expelled population fifthfold. Nikola 23:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Blame it on the determination of Albanians not to allow Serbian chauvinistic plans to work...and their healthy natality rate, of course :)))))))So many actions, check[4], and they all failed. Gotta love my nation, we never lost our hopes. My respect to my loving nation. Regards,Ilir pz 00:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
If you carefully check the course of events, and actions by every Serbian leader in Kosovo you can clearly see that those actions are completely in accordance with that document. And the last expulsion attempt by Milosevic was the worst case scenario, or the best according to that plan. Luckily this time Albanians had the support of the democratic world countries that did not allow that to happen. Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Now, you must be joking. Which Serbian leader in Kosovo. Since the end of the WWII 90% of the political leaders in Kosovo were kosovar albanians (presidends, prime ministers...). In the 20th century Serbs tried to erradicate Albanians just before the WWI and while Milosevic was in power, between these to waves, especially after the WWII albanian kosovars started something like a cold war against Serbs in Kosovo. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Milosevic was not the leader of Kosovo, but he did what he did there. I did not say Serbian leaders, as in leader of Kosovo. Hope you got the message. I see that you are trying to recruit people to explain history to "siptarima" all over wiki. good luck with that. You're quite confident with your facts. Having lots of fun. Unfortunately serbian propaganda did a great job, so many brainwashed people. That is another factor why Kosovo should become independent, lol. Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about brainwashing. I'd rather say that the technique of Joseph Goebbels was used in Albania and within kosovar albanian media. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

2.After the Dayton Agreement and numerous atrocities committed by Serb security forces inside Kosovo, the disillusioned Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started a guerrilla war for liberation. It's not a war for liberation when you organize a terroristic separatistic group and kill Serbs, Gorani's, Jews, Roma's, or expell them. http://www.tenc.net/interviews/keys.htm

The main targets of KLA were the occupatory Serbian military. As in every war conflict, where outlaws are incorporated, I don't exclude the posibility any individual might have attacked civillians. I condemn those strongly. Let us not forget that in the Serbian troops there were Arkan, Frenki, and all sorts of paramilitary groups, furthermore they were financed by the secret service of the Serbian state. Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Frenki was never in Kosovo. KLA is financed by the albanian officials (mafia) who get their money from drug and people trafficking. (I tried to be neutral so far but now I just can't stand any more arguing with someone who doesn't even try to be neutral. I tried to explain that both sides are guilty and I wanted to reach a compromise with you and\or Ilir, but that just was not possible) http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/heroin.html

Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Frenki was not in Kosovo? oh well. I am sure you have facts. One of my good friends of my childhood had been captured by one of his gangs and I never got to see him again. I do have a fact, his family recognized them. You are not convincing at all gianni. And yes, you are VERY neutral, killing me with that. By saying you hate all the leaders of ex-YUG republics and Kosovo leaders doesn't make you any neutral. KLA, financed by mafia...well for serbs all Albanians were terrorists anyways. I am just wasting my precious time explaining to youBen uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I repeat again Frenki was not in Kosovo. His units were in Bujanovac, Presevo and Medvedja, which don't belong to kosovo. I'm not interested in family stories as they are very efficient tool to cause simpathy, and the objectivity of these events is very hard to confirm. If you did loose a friend like that, I am sorry, many Serbs did too. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

One thing that is important to mention is that according to OSCE numbers and Kosovar Albanian sources on population size and distribution, an estimated 45.7 percent of the Albanian population and 59.5 percent of the Serb population had fled Kosovo during the bombings (i.e. from 23 March to 9 June 1999).2 , and after this day who knows how many more others fled http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/nato.htm

It is also important to mention the number of Albanians that returned to Kosovo, and the ones that decided to move from Albania after the 1999. http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/publ/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDLEGAL&id=3ae6b33b14&page=publ while Serbs can't return.

Otherwise, history part and everything else is just perfect, it's not pro serbian nor pro albanian.

Gianni ita 08:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I just noticed another small irregularity. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.

It's not the first case of reparations. Serbs financed all the expenses of rebuilding Vukovar, Croats financed all the expenses of rebuilding some parts of Mostar that they ruined... And I'm not sure that Kosovo Govt. is actually helping Serbian minority, if KFOR wasn't there, not even one Serbian monastery will still be there, and you will hardly find any serb there. It is still KFOR that maintains peace, not the Kosovar Albanian Govt.

Gianni ita 08:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How related is it talking about Croats or Serbs rebuilding Vukovar to what we are dicussing here? lol Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ben uk, or Ilir, (I don't know who am I talking to because you might be one of Ilir's sockpuppets)if you read carefully what it says in the article you will understand what I am refering to. To help you, it said that albanian kosovar govt. helped rebuild some of the ruined serbian houses, and that this was the first time in the Balkan peninsula that this kind of a thing happened. That's why I mentioned cases where Serbian, and Croatian governments did those things before. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Asterion or Gianni_ita (I don't know who I am talking to because you both seem to be sockpuppets of each other) Sorry but I did not see anyone saying Kosovo govt was the only one to have ever done that. This discussion page is way to long, did not catch that part. Anyways it is irrelevant to anything we are talking about hereBen uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a lot in common with Asterion, although I see that we have the same aim in this discussion page, and that is to leave Kosovo to Serbia. I don't know why these insults? You do know that it was said few days ago in the beginning of this discussion page that you were suspected of being Ilir's sockpuppet? Gianni ita 19:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What: to leave Kosova to Serbia? Frenki was not in Kosovo? Gianni ita, you are trying to be neutral? I mean, in which planet are you living and is there any oxygen, because it looks like your brain needs some oxygen immediately! You are a clear case of Serbian brainwashing. Kosova should and it will be independent, whether you like it or not.--Mig11 10:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Moving discussion page to archive

This discussion page is way to long, how about moving it to an archive? suggestions appreciated! Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Move it to an archive. Litany

History

I hope you can forgive me. I made some changes on this article but I'll explain the adding so there will be no more missunderstanding. 1: "Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era." this is true, but no expulsion was made between 1941 and 1990?/1996?... changed to "During the next decades, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place." 2: added "It is also estimated that 400.000 Serbs were clensed from the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman war in 1897. (see Demographic history of Kosovo)". Why? It's the truth. 3: ..eastern part of Kosovo "(Metohija to Orthodox)"... this is essentially right. In all my books (and no crap about it's chetnik books or whatever) it says "Metohija was given to Montenegro instead of Shkodra".

so please.. we should all cooperate. I listen to you and I expect the same from you. We should discuss and not argue. Have a nice weekend everyone/Litany

These are the things that I added, deleted or changed

1. I added Serbian theory that they are the descendants of Illyrians, although I think that it is very unlikely. 2. I added that Albanians voted on the 12. of january 1992. for the independence of one part of Macedonia 3. I added that during the protests, not Kosovar, but kosovar albanian students were asking for the independence of kosovo. 4. I deleted the part which mentioned continous expelling of Albanians since 1912. that was a big lie. 5. I changed the description of the KLA the way it should be described, and I added that Serbian forces killed way more innocent people than the KLA.

Tell me what you think of the changes!


Gianni ita 20:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

One out of 5 changes you made is ok, the rest are very biased and by no means reflect the reality. First of all, they are not backed by any source AT ALL. 1. why do you add something you think it is unlikely? is that smart? 2. Have you found a source to back that claim?? 3. I like that change. 4. There is that source which you should read first, and then say it was a lie. 5. Comparing KLA to the paramilitary death squads is ridiculous. It is true that very few from KLA did horrible things, but they were far less in number and much less directed by any higher authority, whereas Serbian paramilitary troops were trained by JSO, and all sorts of military and special police units.

Above all, DISCUSS SOMETHING FIRST, and then if majority of us agrees (just like majority will decide about the status of Kosovo, as Contact Group last meeting confirmed [5], I will quote for you "Ministers look to Belgrade to bear in mind that the settlement needs, inter alia, to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo. "). Only then can you wish us to have a nice weekend. Ben uk 21:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Response to Ben uk. 1. If you represent the some nationalist ideas of Albanian people, why wouldn't there be netionalist ideas of Serbian people too, although I don't agree with them. 2. Source to back that claim can be found here This is a site which highly criticizes Serbia becacuse of its action in Kosovo, but you can find under 12. January 1992. what had happened http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced i repeat again this happened on 12.1. 1992. why don't you think this happened. 3. We agree 4. for the tenth time http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm read this. Serbs were the victims between the two waves of albanian expelling. 5. Just type KLA DRUGS on google and see what you get. KLA is just like al qaeda, just like scorpions in Serbia.

Gianni ita 21:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


Ilir / Ben uk / Mark ma or whatever alias you go by now. You do not own the article on Kosovo and you know that. Stop calling people vandals simply because we are trying to put the article in order and remove some of its heavy ALbanian extremist bias. Also, please learn some geography, as Andalusia is not in Chile, my friend. I really love your logic too: we are neither Serbian not Albanian, hence not "allowed" to discuss the subject but Serbs are not "allowed" to edit the article either. Got to love your democracy at work! Whether you like it or not, the Kosovo article is not meant to be a UCK mouthpiece. Regards, Asterion 00:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, Litany, Gianni, or whoever you are. You are not trying to put the article in "order", you are just determined to defend serbian nationalism, and that means erase and change anything that Albanians contribute in the site. OF COURSE I can help you in that. I told you a long time ago, you cannot stop me. I am doing this for my country, and I will never get tired contributing. I never said Andalusia was in Chile, I just wanted you to understand (but blinded by serbian nationalism you seem to not be able to do that easily) that one person from andalusia OR Chile (read: who is not directly involved in the issue) should not just delete stuff. This article belongs to those whose country it is in question. I don't recall to have changed anything on the content of BRASIL or the Australia (check the comparison I make again). Oh another thing, I am NOT your friend. It is not democracy to not respect the main element of democracy: the right of Kosovo Albanians on self-determination. That applies to this article as well, we are the ones whom this article concerns the most. Oh and that sockpuppet campaign you have started, you are as ridiculous as one frustrated serbian nationalist can be. Answers to the stuff above: 1. Feel free to use serbian nationalism, just to refresh your memory, it caused 4 wars, and shrunk Serbia to where it is right now, and with a tendency to shrink further (as Radicals are getting more powerful). Use your nationalism elsewhere, Kosovo is lost for you once and for all. Realists in Serbia have long admitted that, I see it all over in comments of (rather normal) b92 news agency. 2. Just check what kind of source you are giving me. I did not say ANY source. Citing radicals or milosevic's sources is like not citing sources at all, but citing lies. All the world has found out that those are pure lies. 4. is as well not a neutral source, not at all. 5. hehe, just check what hits google returns for "kla drugs", like sprska-mreza, kosovo.com, heheeh very credible sources, impressive. Ilir pz 11:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, don't make me laugh. You can't get serbian sites when you type KLA DRUGS on google. Click on the second site that you get, it's from washington times. In case you somehow didn't find it here it is www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html or you have from the daily oklahoman May 28. 1999. this excerpt In 1998 the State Department listed the KLA as an international terrorist organization that supported itself with drug profits and through loans from known terrorists like bin Laden. And the site that i gave you to prove that albanians voted for the independence of one part of macedonia is http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm this site is criticizing both milosevic and all his colleagues, while the other site is a bit more neutral http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced . WHY WOULD YOU NOT ACCEPT THESE FACTS? IT'S NOT OFFENDING ANYONE, IT'S JUST STATED THAT ALBANIANS VOTED FOR THE INDEPENDENCY OF ONE PART OF MACEDONIA? about question one, someone saying that albanians are illyrians and someone saying that serbs are illyrians are albanian and serbian nationalist, because we already have albanian extreme nationalist side presented why wouldn't we have serbian also just to get the balance. Gianni ita 15:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Gianni ever wondered what a geocities website is? it is a free yahoo web page. Freely send an email to heartland@yahoo.com and you will get a mail back. So now if I make a website with www.geocities.com/gianni/kosovo.html and write there that "Kosovo belongs to Serbia" it is a credible source??? OH MY GOD!!!!Ben uk 10:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ben UK, i admit, the geocities is not credible, but you have the same article, and it says the same date (and both are from Washington Times) on this site http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=1048 Why don't you want to coment other sites, why aren't you accepting the fact that albanians from macedonia voted for the independence of one part of macedonia? Gianni ita 19:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo and Metohija

Kosovo is just a part of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. The article represents Kosovo as Kosovo and Metohija, and that's wrong. Thats like saying Serbia is the same as Serbia and Montenegro, there's no difference... You can't do that. Just because it may be a little hard for Westerners to pronounce Metohija and most people haven't heard of that word in their lives, doesn't mean that the article title shouldn't contain the word. If Kosovo becomes independent and declares that it is called only Kosovo, and not Kosovo and Metohija, then make the article title "Kosovo". --Boris Malagurski ₪ 07:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Very funny, your comparisons and explanations can just make a Kosovar Albanian laugh to death. It is not the question IF the Kosovo becomes independent, but WHEN. Indications show that is to happen (and celebrate for) this year. [6]Until then, please entertain us with your old and Milosevician comments, until Kosovo is DE JURE independent. Ilir pz 11:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Boris Malagurski, don't feed trolls. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Regards, Asterion 11:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I will start ignoring your inflammatory remarks soon, Asterion/Gianni/Litany/whatever. Thanks for the tip. Ilir pz 11:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo and Metohija is still a part of Serbia. This is not future Wikipedia, you can't write that Croatia is a part of the EU, even if thats gonna happen soon. If and when Kosovo and Metohija becomes independent, THEN change it to just Kosovo.

And by the way, if Kosovo becomes independent, it won't be for too long. Serbs have lived under the Turks for 500 years and liberated their land, one day Kosovo will be liberated from the Albanians as well, and it will again be a part of Serbia, because it is Serbian holy land. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 01:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

This is pure Seselj nationalism. Oh well, we survived for so many centuries having Serbs as neighbours, and I think we are more numerous than ever. And the future estimations say we will become even more. I am curious where Serbia would be in a couple of centuries. my guess, within Belgrade suburbs??? Feed yourself with illusions, that is the best serbian nationalists do. Kosovo is a heart of Serbia, right? How do serbs live without a heart right now? amazing nation! hehhe...Ben uk 10:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

He he, nice comments. My question is, how come you hate Serbia so much, even though your parents are FROM Serbia? I'm originally from Vojvodina, but since it's a part of Serbia (just like Kosovo and Metohija) I say I'm from Serbia (so should your parents). Your comment just confirms the plan of ethic Albanians to form a Greater Albania in Kosovo and Metohija, Western Macedonia, parts of Greece and Montenegro. Kosovo still is a heart of Serbia, and it will always be the heart of Serbia, because the Albanians may gain their independence, but one day Kosovo will be liberated, and there are a lot of people who think like me, so, Albanians, don't feel too safe... --Boris Malagurski ₪ 19:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Not worth commenting. benny 21:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually none of my parents, or grandparents were ever born outside Kosovo, and never felt they had anything to do with the Serbian regime, let alone feel as if they live in a part of it :)))))))))))). Even when we had all sorts of regimes installed by force in our beloved country, Kosovo, we had our own government, paid taxes to our own institutions, had our own schools, our own medical system, flag, newspapers, everything. As of feeling safe, I never felt that anyone in Kosova fears the return of serbian terrorist forces back to Kosovo, you may only dream of that. Dream on!!! Maybe there you can see that there. And here is my last comment to you, EVER, as I don't have time to waste with Seselj-like creatures. Whenever you write I will only see "blla blla blla" instead, completely ignore you, just like we ignored the animalistic regime of Milosevic and all before him installed in my INDEPENDENT AND LOVING COUNTRY KOSOVA. :)))))))))))Ilir pz 19:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was talking to Ben. Don't feel too embarrassed.--Boris Malagurski ₪ 19:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

blla blla blla I was answering for myself, it is as offensive for all Albanians in Kosovo. Ilir pz 19:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

As long as you're not embarrassed... --Boris Malagurski ₪ 23:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually find this comment from Ben_uk genial: "How do serbs live without a heart right now?"
Boris Malagurski: try to be neutral, you are not. What do you mean: “but one day Kosovo will be liberated”? Maybe you didn’t get it, but Kosova was at last liberated after the NATO troupes came! Now it just a question of time until the status of independence will be official.--Mig11 10:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this discussion has been entertaining, but honestly it's pretty sad to witness BOTH Serbian and Albanian nationalism on a Wikipedia discussion page. If Albanians and Serbs want to be Europeans and be granted their rightful place within the European Union, then you must learn the lesson the rest of us Europeans already learnt after so many wars: nationalism IS stupid, and so is squabbling about who's the real owner of Kosovo. If the majority of the people in Kosovo opts for it to be independent, then it shall be independent no matter the Serbian attempts to push those rather pathetic arguments, scavenged from the roots of history to justify its possesion over the territory. As for the Albanians, that doesn't mean that you can despise the Serbs. There are still many Serbs living in Kosovo and when Kosovo attains independence their rights must be protected and the ethnic hatred extinguished. We've had too much hatred in Europe already and there's no place for it in the European Union. Neither in Wikipedia.

Sockpuppetry thing

Asterion/Gianni/Litany, whoever from you are reverting changes constantly, if you think anyone who doesn't share your opinion on Kosovo is a sockpuppet, then you've 2 million such in Kosova itself, and many more outside Kosovo. You are vandalising yourself, big time, by reverting changes, and instead try to accuse someone of sockpuppeting. You even went that far as you insulted by calling "cockpuppeting" [7]. This only shows how frustrated you are with the fact that Kosovo will never be under Serbian rule again, and it will be an independent country sooner than you think. Good luck fighting 2 million "sockpuppets", lol. What was that "go back to LSE about", by the way?Ilir pz 13:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You're under investigation by the Arbitration Committee. I will not comment on your behaviour till the CheckUser process is finalised. I kindly ask you to refrain from editing the evidence page and remove any tags from your user page(s) Asterion 15:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir pz\mark ma\ben uk, I called you sockpuppets because when I opened a profile of one of you, it clearly said that you were a suspected sockpuppet of someone. No need to discuss this any more, we called you sockpuppets, you called us, THE END. Gianni ita 16:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I was suspected as being a sockpuppet by asterion, gianni, not by someone. And it is clearly a way to defend the nationalism he feels for serbs. It is not gonna work. You can keep calling whatever you wish. Ben uk 10:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Article

Please only discuss the content of the article here. As long as you only fight there is no meaning to edit something here before adding something to the article. Litany

"ISBN 86-17-09287-4: Kosta Nikolić, Nikola Žutić, Momčilo Pavlović, Zorica Špadijer: Историја за трећи разред гимназије природно-математичког смера и четврти разред гимназије општег и друштвено-језичког смера, Belgrade, 2002, pg. 63" Litany, is this the neutral article from Kosovo Demographic history you are talking about? ridiculous. Your change is unreasonable. Whereas the Muhaxheri issue is clearly written by Leon Trotsky, search for the literature from him on that. [8].Thanks,Ilir pz 19:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, please.. The book is from Trotskys time in Balkan 1912-1913, while the article talks about what happend two weeks after the Berlin Congress in 1878. Maybe you should read first and then talk! :)

I think the whole part should be shortened to just "mass expulsion of ethnic groups contiuned from both sides druing the time..." this is more NPOV then not letting anything be said about the events. right? Litany

Litany, I did not specify a time when Muhaxheri expulsion happened. That was a continuous process. Should you want to see more in detail, check [9]. Trotsky's describes only a short period of it. regards Ilir pz 23:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
But Ilir, you supported it. Read the article, it's not clear enough. Of course it was an ongoing process just like the expulsion of serbs during that time. The sources you provide is from Kosovo, made from Albanian sourcess. Are these reliable??

I suggest the whole frase should be rewritten and include both albanians, serbs and other ethnic groups too. How does that sound? Litany

Hi Litany, the whole Demography of Kosovo is according to some biased Serbian papers, what do you expect?That article needs heavy rewriting. I will dedicate some time to that once I am back from a trip. The source I gave is only assembled by an Albanian. Sources used in it are diverse. You read a bit further, not just look the header, of Kosova's Information Center. Ilir pz 22:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

As no one was interested in discussing or didn't find sources to oppose my facts, i again changed following things, 1. serbian theory that they are illyrians, with which i disagree, but which is needed to balance albanian and serbian nationalism in history. 2. I deleted the sentence where it said that albanians were expelled from serbia since the WWI. the article itself opposes this view, as it is said later in the text that fascist albania during the wwii killed and expelled a lot of serbs. Also during the reign of Tito, no single albanian was expelled, more serbs left Kosovo then Albanians. 3. I added again that after Kosovar Albanians voted for the independency of Kosovo, in 12.1.1992. they also voted for the independency of one part of macedonia. I gave two sites as a proof in previous discussions twice, but there were no reactions.

That's it. I hope everyone is happy now, as the article is clearly unbiased after a long, long, time.

Gianni ita 19:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Of course you cannot change the article because someone doesn't suggest changes within 24 hrs. People work, you know? they don't just hang out in wiki like you. You put the hypothesis that serbs are with illyrian origin to balance nationalisms?? Holly mother. Of course I will revert that back.

2. There is a source for that information, of course I will rever that back. 3. your sites of supporting that claim are not neutral, of course I will revert that back. Advice: Discuss further, and then change when there is agreement here, Mr. Balancer, hehehe. benny 21:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Benny you have o slow down a little. This is not a revert war anymore. :) I think 4 or 5 days is enough of waiting for respons.
To Gianni.
1. Every serious historian must belive that the Illyrian are mixed with all (or most) ethnic groups on Balkan. Very, very, few is stating that the Illyrians are direct desendants to any ethnic group, simply because there is no proof. If the article needs nationalistic balance, we should delete the already existing nationalism!
2. I totally agree with you on this one. The sentance opposes it's own view. Keep
3. Add the sources again, after I read them I will make a comment if I think they are a reliable source. (An election about independance must be documented.) Litany

Factual accuracy

No, the article not only is not neutral, it is completely inaccurate from the beginning to the end. Some of the problems are:

  • English translation of the official name of the province, Kosovo and Metohia, is not mentioned in the introduction.
  • According to the introduction, Kosovo "is a territory in South Eastern Europe". We've been over this a thousand times. Kosovo is a part of SCG, period. SCG's constitution defines Kosovo as a province of Serbia, period. The end of any discussion about its status.
  • Final status of Kosovo is not the subject of any dispute, but of political negotiations.
  • Kosovo does not border Serbia; Kosovo is a part of Serbia. It can only border the rest of Serbia.
  • I won't even try to read the history. It is overexpanded for the article anyway. A few things which did caught my eye however:
    • Resettlement policies of Ottoman Empire are described as Serbian ethnic cleansing.
    • The autonomy of Kosovo was never revoked, Albanian resistance was not peaceful, etc. etc.
    • UNHCR did not estimated, but registered, 250,000 refugees and not 100,000. The number of Serbian refugees is reduced thrice, again and again, despite having multiple independent references (see Demographic_history_of_Kosovo) which confirm it.
  • Information about name of Kosovo and its Slavic origin, including the map has mysteriously disappeared.
  • So has the list of former official names. No, Kosovo was not called Kosovo and Metohia, ever.
  • So has any link to Demographic history of Kosovo, which is one of the best referenced articles on entire Wikipedia.
  • Cities are named using Albanian/Serbian name in total disrespect with any Wikipedia policies.
  • The international community uses 'Kosovo/Kosova' to describe the province only in someone's wet dreams.
  • UNMIK is not responsible with supervision of the government of Kosovo; UNMIK is responsible with governing Kosovo. It delegated some of its powers to the government.
  • In external links, a book by Hugo Roth, is proudly listed as pro-Serb, obviously because Hugo is a Serb historian. But Radio Television of Kosova? No sir, it can't possibly be pro-Albanian.



So, I am adding warning header about disputed factual accuracy to the article, though it will be reverted without doubt.

And all the while, our revered editor ChrisO is dutifully watching over the article and probably dying of laughter. The lowest of low. Nikola 23:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

No need to get frustrated and give us "periods" here, Nikola. "briefly"
  • Kosovo and Metohia is a Serbian fabrication, thus in English it does not make sense to translate
  • Kosovo, until its final status, independence de jure, is solved and made official, it is a territory in SEE. SCG constitution is as important as some rubish piece of paper in my trash can to 90% of Albanians and the Contact Group members.
  • Kosovo DOES border Serbia. We collect taxes, and verify documentation, and guard the border with Serbia.
  • As of Serbian ethnic cleansing extensive information here [10]
  • Autonomy of Kosovo was not revoked? we just gave it up right? ridiculous. All know the truth.
  • Demographic history of Kosovo is a highly disputed article, read the references only, all Serbian. That article needs heavy reviewing and changing.
  • double naming system is the best way to reflect the naming of cities in a place where not all are of one nationality. It is a long gone period when in Kosova we had only cyrillic names everywhere, shops, cities, documents, etc. Kosova is a democratic country now, we are more civilized than that way of thinking you are predicating.
  • Americans and brits like "Kosova" naming, so for the sake of our dear friends who stopped the bloodshed, we should as well use it here.
      • UNMIK has [11](I am sure you've never seen this site) these duties, to:
      • perform basic civilian administrative functions;
      • promote the establishment of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo;
      • facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status;
      • coordinate humanitarian and disaster relief of all international agencies;
      • support the reconstruction of key infrastructure;
      • maintain civil law and order;
      • promote human rights; and
      • assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo.
      • Of course the "total disputed" label of yours is your point of view, thus inaccurate. Sleep tight in your wet dreams(as you said) :))))))Ilir pz 00:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

No discussions before changes???

So nobody wants to discuss before changing the content, right? perfect! :)))))) Ilir pz 09:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Read above Ilir. Litany

Something completely different is discussed, and some only revert other changes, that is why I am asking. best,Ilir pz 22:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right, some only revert changes. You wanna know who? You.

I was trying to make the article more NPOV, but obviously that's not good for you (why, I can't even imagine...). So, Ilir, or whatever your real name is, I know you're from Kosova, and you really really want Kosovo and Metohija to become an independent state, and I frankly don't care anymore (since I live in Canada, doesn't affect me), but we can't go on fighting, and I mean, in every aspect. We discussed the content, it's not like the changes came out of the blue.

The still official name (Kosovo and Metohija) should go first, BUT since the majority of Kosovars are Albanians, I guess it does no harm to put the Albanian name first. Also, Priština is the official name of the city, but OK, lets leave it at Prishtine, or whatever you call it. The history part of the article was very biased, and you will see I left a bunch of stuff on serbian ethnic cleansing, which some Serbs might want to remove, but I guess it is pointless to argue about something that'll most likely never be resolved, and thats why it's still there. Although, I did mention that the Serb gov't claimed that the KLA was a terrorist organization (didn't Milosevic say that? It's not biased, it's history). I'm not saying that it is (although I think that), but I wrote that the Serb gov't thinks it is, and I see no harm in that claim (I also left the text where it says that the purpose of the KLA is to achieve independence).

So, no matter what argues we had before, I realized that it's not going to help fighting about it in this case, so we might as well cooperate, and we might, just might, reach an agreement (just like those guys in Vienna). Cheers, --Boris Malagurski ₪ 01:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

If we don't stick to the international documents and naming systems used by the international interim administration, I will keep reverting as I have no choice. None there says official name is Kosovo and metohija or whatever you call it. Double naming system is applied to every document they address. If you wanna write the claims of the serbian govt you have to make a completely new document, which is completely opposite to what the internationals and Albanians claim. Unfortunately here there is no Ahtisari or Roan to stop the vandals, who give sources from Milosevician era, and one sided documents. How about you start reading rather neutral sources, and official international documents of UNMIK, and stop writing with the same language like Milosevic admin would, or later Kostunica (aka premijer Kalasnikov)[12] does. That would be a good start. Until then I will have to revert your changes. Thank you.Ilir pz 23:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
To Boris: Kosovo and Metohija is not the name of Kosova. We could use Kosovo|Kosova or Kosova|Kosovo but no way Kosovo and Metohija! And the official name of Prishtina is Prishtina. --Mig11 11:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Lock

My suggestion is to lock the page untill final status negotiations are over. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 02:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Still no response? What do I have to do to get attention from an administrator?? --Boris Malagurski ₪ 05:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, posting at the Administrators noticeboard would probably do the trick. ;-) Of course, the very existence of the noticeboard isnt very well communicated. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 21:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is the proof that elections took place. That's the response to 3rd question i think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilirida under history

or http://www.projects.v2.nl/~arns/Texts/Chrono/MK.html under jan. 1992.

The response to first question, about the origin of Illyrians, I say again, I don's support the idea that Serbs are the descendants of Illyrians, but some people in Serbia actually believe in this, some think they are Celtic descendants, and i agree with Litany that all the nations in the Balkans are actually a mix of all the tribes that went through these places. So, I propose just to add a sentence like that, if you don't want to add that Serbs came from Illyrians or Celts or any other tribe. But only albanian idea about their ancestry doesn't make the article complete. Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


And Ben, I did wait around 4 days for your response in discussion page. And you did visit the page twice since i started this serious discussion, but both you and Ilir were more occupied with the very important problem of who is calling who a sockpuppet.

Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


You wanna lock this place once you vandalize it? Not gonna work. As of writing the line about Serbs having Illyrian origin, that is the most ridiculous of all possible street legends. Of course we are not talking about legends on Kosovo in this article. And Gianni, you cannot just give a deadline to someone, but you have to wait once a conclusion is reached, even if it takes more time. As of articles supporting the voting in Macedonia by Albanians, again, citing another wiki site, where no support is given for that either, makes no sense again. After all, how related is that voting with Kosovo itself? You are just trying to support a picture that Albanians just like to expand, and cut parts of other countries right? I don't support an unsupported sentence, and one that deviates from the subject. Ilir pz 15:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

How can Serbs have an Illyrian origin, I mean they came in Balkans at the VII century. At that time the Illyrians where already there! Illyrians were not Slavic, and Serbs are. --Mig11 11:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir pz

Please note that you do not own the article and you cannot simply revert everything. Note here that you violated the wikipedia policy by conducting a personal attack: rv to a previous version. Too much of organized vandalism by pro-serbian nationalists. Discussion needed. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and don't attack users in the future.

Your edits will be reverted. This is a more NPOV version, so I'll put a tag. If anything needs to be discussed, please discuss it here, don't attempt to occupy articles. Best. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Your edits will be reverted. You are nobody to decide which is more NPOV version. As of discussion, you discuss here, not just revert according to your "NPOV". This what you are doing is called pro-Serbian nationalism. You should know better what that resulted in. Let the time tell what the status will be like. As Kosovo's status is not determined, it is not part of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia or any other neighbouring country. Thus your edits are extreme pro-serb and thus unacceptable. Regards,Ilir pz 18:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, just a friendly reminder. You do not own the article. Feel free to engage in constructive discussion. As recognised in every single UN resolution, Kosovo IS part of Serbia. Everything else is daydreaming and POV. Regards, Asterion 19:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, could you provide only ONE UN document that recognizes Kosovo explicitly as a part of Serbia? And just so we're clear on this, Serbia is not Yugoslavia (nor is Serbia and Montenegro for that matter)! So, go ahead and give us a UN Resolution to prove your claims. And as we all know already, UN SC Resolution 1244 is the main governing document in Kosovo. For some reason, the word 'Serbia' is not mentioned there; except once at the end, when it speaks about the BORDER between Kosovo and Serbia!
I agree on one thing, ilir_pz, don't call them serbian nationalists as it is well known what they are associated with, i.e.war crimes all around ex-yug. As of owning the document, none does, that is the philosophy behind wikipedia, but one should have in mind that who has more right to be involved and contribute. So we are talking about Kosovo, thus Kosovars have priority. Kosovo IS NOT a part of Serbia, it used to be under occupation, not anymore. The article should be in accordance with OFFICIAL UN administration in KOSOVA as of now, and once the status is resolved many mouths will be shut. The map should also not be biased, Albanians could also put a map of second world war when Kosovo was annexed by Germany and Italia, and it was a part of Albania. But we are not talking about history.Thank you, Leshkuq 08:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The territory is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999[13], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. Regards, Asterion 06:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone!!!

Greetings fellow Wikipedians!

I noticed that there was a little argument over the article. Well, I changed a few bits, I hope everyone likes what I did, I think I made it more neutral. That's all from me, you guys can finish the job, you all seem to have a lot of knowledge concerning the issue! Good luck, and I hope you resolve the dispute as soon as possible!!!

--M.B. 03:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution. Unfortunately a couple of the people here have no knowledge concerning the issue, but are fed with propaganda of the Milosevic regime, and continue to apply it here. Hope the status talks end soon, and these vandals will have no "facts" to continue their revert war in this page. Regards, Ilir pz 23:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Leshkuq,

Please do not simply revert everything. You do not own the article. Change what you do not like. The current version is biased and you conducted a massive removal from the history section and elsewhere. Please edit what you think is wrong, not just revert everything carelessly.

Thank you! --HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is this Kosovar problem so obvious. Kosovo isn't recognized as an independent for Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro state. Isn't that what everyone agrees? Of what state is Kosovo a part then? Bulgaria, perhaps?
Additionally, why would there be so many users that write "supports the independence of Kosovo" here on wikipedia. Independence from what, if not Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro?
Oh, and Ilir; Serbia and Montenegro is the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You revert yourself. Mine is more NPOV,yours is full of nationalisms, which I don't see that the majority agreed with in this talk page. I will have to revert. It just hurts my eyes. Leshkuq 21:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
There we go again with another "throwaway" username... Wikipedia:Requests for CheckUser anyone, please? Asterion 21:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I felt so happy while I was reading HolyRomanEmperor's arguments. I agree 100%. Those just might be the best arguments yet. Thank you for posting that, it really made me happy. Also, I think ilirpz should be blocked, he has done nothing usefull on this Wikipedia except reverting every single edit done to this, and many other Kosovo-related articles. It may be true that Kosovo will one day be independent, but for now, it is considered vandalism to alter the truth in articles. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 22:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Leshkuq welcome to this talk page. I advise you to start ignoring some that participate in this talk page. You are familiar with the wording used by previous occupatory regime in Kosova, that is the same "facts" and language they use. Just ignore some who will start calling you a vandal, a citizen whose parents are from SCG, asking you whether Kosovo is a part of Bulgaria, and one is especially keen on calling you my sockpuppet. Good luck here and hope to see you here again. Gjith te mirat vella, Ilir pz 23:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop reverting

I suggest we leave the document as it is, and we go thoroughly through each part of it, a chapter by chapter and revise everything, its sources, relevancy and content. Otherwise I will have no choice but try to stop your pro-serbian reverts. Choose! I will not be lazy to do reverts, if you continue like this! I have no choice. My choices at least have a strong reason - read: I LIVE AND BREATHE IN THE COUNTRY WE ARE DISCUSSING. It is extremely important for my future. For you it is just another wikipedia topic. Think about it, and then waste your time reverting the content here. I guarantee you, your reverts will be very short-lived. I am trying to be constructive here, citing neutral sources, and giving you facts from first-hand experience as well, and you keep citing CPC sources to me, and just keep reverting. Hope you decide to call on your conscience finally. You will regret one day for having wasted your time, as KOSOVA will become independent. Even Draskovic (though I doubt the old wolf, who in the past had his paramilitary groups all over ex-yug, and his mouth was all anti-non-serbian) indicated that, though with many words aside, which I am very suspicious about. [14]. WITH LOVE from KOSOVA, Ilir pz 23:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

correction: Kosovo is not a country. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 00:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


The well known vandal, Asterion did not wait for me to even publish this before he continued his reverting war. I think we should ask for [15] to help. Until then, back to what I said earlier. The accurracy and timing makes me very suspicious that Bormalagurski is just another puppet of Asterion. We need mediation, otherwise we are just wasting time here. Ilir pz 00:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, you are the only one reverting everyone else's edits. I suppose that even if you get banned, you will still carry on somehow... Asterion 00:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, I will carry on, always. But the abovementioned method works just fine, it is exactly the way you do it. from my COUNTRY KOSOVA, best,Ilir pz 08:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm starting to think Ilir is Agim Ceku. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 08:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to think quite many of you here are organized and getting paid by CΠC and CPC to continue spreading the anti-Albanian propaganda. Ilir pz 08:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm starting to think you are going to be blocked very very soon. -- Boris Malagurski ₪ 09:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

some problems

1) "the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government" - someone forgot the Albanians and the UN ;) and.. Kosovo is still not a country I think, it's not declared or anything.. (is it?) 2) history is very big 3) Swiss franc isn't that wide-spread. --www.doc 19:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

May I remind everyone that the purpose of the POV tag is to improve an article, not as some apparently try to use it to discredit an entry they are not happy with. A few editors have been trying to reach consensus on the issue but it seems as if any contribution contrary to Albanian nationalism is automatically reverted by some individual(s). This is not the way forward. Unless their behaviour changes or some disciplinary action is taken, we will be stalled at this stage forever. Regards, Asterion 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm still a newcomer, but could we vote for an admin to take charge of the subject? --www.doc 12:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm also being subjected to a harrasing campaign by this individual (as mentioned in my previous post), who not only seems prepared to revert article namespace but has taken a step further and has left unpleasant comments in my talk page and has previously reverted some entries in it. Asterion 19:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Hope

I wish most of the Serbian the participants in wiki think more like this intellectual [16], who is young, smart, and thinks rationally. Additionally another speaker, Mr.Matić clearly says it is "naive using the expression southern serbian province" (cite:"je naivno upotrebljavati izraz južna srpska pokrajina.")[17] He furthermore openly says (which many serbs tend to close their eyes to) that "Ja mislim da je odluka (o statusu Kosova) doneta. Mislim da se sada samo pregovara kako će se to saopštiti javnosti. Jasno je da će predstavnici Srbije odbiti konačno rešenje, izvesno je da će to rešenje biti nezavisnost, ali da će živeti sa tim." May this rationallity spread around wiki as well. There is hope. I want to believe most Serbs in Serbia (will) think this way soon, as it is healthy :))). RegardsIlir pz 11:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That's your opinion. I'd like to see if any other wikipedian wishes for his country to lose its most historic places, monasteries. Let's not forget that battles have taken place there, battles with the shed of blood for freedom (I'm talking about Battle of Kosovo). Independency is not an option, it's a decision led by force. I'll never live with anything that is directed by foreigners until it's set back to normal or let people decide (not only the ones that currently live there, because most of Kosovo's Serbians population have left, or better yet, driven away from their homes). I'm not in the least bit thankful to anyone that participated in the bombardment of Serbia nor will I be thankful if independency is finally recognized and approved.
Yes, "the decision was made", but who made it? And why always be passive? Rationality does not imply passiveness towards something called history. As passiveness is unacceptable in an act of crime, so it is unacceptable on this point. And please, don't start with Milosevic's "crimes", because everyone killed innocent people at that time, and they blamed it to the weatherman. In a war, we all have losses, but that does not mean that we have to live with it and ignore it. What's next? An invasion from NATO to protect the Albanians in Belgrade? Hah, sorry but I personally am not the guy that sits around doing nothing. --www.doc 15:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Independency is the only solution for Kosova. Serbia is not loosing its most historical places; Serbia is just giving back, what she took, without asking the ethnic people in Kosova, which are Albanians. Most of the monasteries were Illyrian, but Serbs turn them into orthodox churches. The people from Kosova didn’t have any choice and they could not do anything against the decision from year 1913, as higher forces gave Kosova to former Yugoslavia. But now they have at last the choice. And the battle of Kosova was lost by the Serbs. They are certainly the only nation in the world who celebrates they lost battles! --Mig11 12:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

History Section

Something desperatley needs to be done about this, it is far too mixed, parts of it claim that other parts are incorrect, parts of the article are completely contradictory to others, for too many unproven theories are in it, the length is far too long, and it is plagued by various mostly Albanian, but also Serbian parts too. It also neglects to mention the gradual expulsion of the Serbs from the region during Titos rule.

Boris and Ilir initiative for a new start

We had a formal agreement with Boris to move in a more constructive way in the future. I have a several suggestions:

  • We should use neutral sources, PLEASE!
  • Kosovo is the official name, without Metohija. You can add that in the Serbian naming, feel free. I did not remove that, see?
  • We agreed not to say whether Kosovo is a part of any country, thus neither a part of Serbia, as long as its status is not resolved.
  • No unilateral changes should happen. We have to discuss for a couple of days, each chapter before we can revert. Litany, Asterion, HollyRomanEmperor refrain yourself from doing that.
  • To agree with point three, we should use a map where Kosovo is not show as a part of any other country. For illustration, a map pointing where Kosovo is in Europe, or world map, would be nicer instead.
  • Try to enrich the External, and neutral links section, as it helps us to understand the issue better.
  • let one template exist, that "kosovo" one, but it should reflect the Kosovo's constitutional framework, approved by all (but serbian) world governments.
  • I understand you have your reasons, be that being a refugee, having a girlfriend from ex-yug, like Zastava, whatever your reasons are (and I can freely claim from the talkers above I might be the one who cares the most about Kosovo as my reasons are a thousand of them and very important ones) keep them for yourself, and don't express them by reverting without judging at all. Instead:
  • DISCUSS here, UNTIL agreement is reached, even if it takes days.

We are wasting too much time accusing each other with "facts" in admin sites, and putting vandalism and sockpuppet labels to each other. Clearly wasting too much time, I have tons of work to do, and I feel ashamed I wasted my time explaining to some some simple things. Let us respect each other's past and move forwards. Thank you, Ilir pz 09:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I am grateful for your showing of good will. But I will have to warn you too to be neutral, since you're the one who has made numerious personal attacks and POV-pushes by now.
Tell me, now, the whole world recognizes the current borders of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro, but not a single faction recognizes that Kosovo is independent. I can't see why are you enforcing that Kosovo is a country, when's it's not. Kosovo might be de facto independent, but it's dejure (please see those two articles) a part of Serbia. If you see any map of the world, see the LaRousse encyclopedia, for instance, you will see the borders of SCG with Kosovo
Additionally, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro are the very same thing. According to the deceison, a new constitution was drafted and the country was renamed.
Also, please, ask yourself when you fight the entire Wikipedia, rather than others. Is there a possibility that you've made a mistake, or are you so unendingly superior than everyone else?
I would also warn you that you do not, repeat, do not own the article. You conducted a massive removal to the date throughout the history section that is bygone incorrect and false (as well as with numerious gaps). You simply cannot revert in good will, while actually creating a alrger collateral damage through reverting than your original intention was. You say that discussion needs? Well, let's hear you. Discuss your edits. Why do you think that your version's better? Since you're outnumbered at opinions, I think that you should define instead your changes.
Regards. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Never said I owned the article. No need to repeat and emphasize your attack. I can read well. Instead I propose we follow the advice of a neutral person who proposed the following(citation): "Here is what both sides agree on. This is a controversial subject, however - here is the Kosovar viewpoint, (X) (supported by sources 1, 2, and 3), as opposed to the Serb viewpoint, (Y) (supported by sources 4, 5, and 6)." Sound good? DS". Otherwise if you keep attacking and giving sources which do not correspond to the official administration and government in Kosova then we will have to divide the whole article, and have two redirections below the title saying "Albanian version" and "Serbian version" and no text below "Kosovo" article it whatsoever. Ilir pz 16:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

International recognition

CIA World Factbook

Please see the CIA World Factbook. If you notice the map of Serbia and Montenegro, it's the standard map with Kosovo and Metohija. Then, if you notice the Administrative divisions bit, you'll see the following:

2 republics (republike, singular - republika); and 2 nominally autonomous provinces (autonomn pokrajine, singular - autonomna pokrajina)(both in the republic of Serbia)* ; Kosovo* (temporarily under UN administration, per UN Security Council Resolution 1244), Montenegro, Serbia, Vojvodina*

Now, I've looked the Flags of All Countries, and there's no Kosovo there.

Additionally, according to the Countries of the World, Kosovo isn't a country, and if anyone sees the Serbia and Montenegro entry there, he/she will see the map of SCG with Kosovo. You will also notice the population of the state. It includes the population of Kosovo in it. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I did not see a map of Kosovo and Metohija by the way. Anyways. I still insist that we should check official documents approved in Kosovo and what they say. I am not sure if CIA is the governing authority in Kosova. Tell me if I am wrong.
  • Kosovo is introduced in the world with the UN flag as of now, and that is the flag used in official visits to Kosovo.
  • Kosovo is officially territory under UN administration, I keep repeating this so many times. For me it is a country, a great one actually, I love it.
  • population? what population? the census is yet to be made this year. None believes those estimations, or census made by the previous occupatory regime in Kosova. Thank you, Ilir pz 16:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Strangely, Kosovo isn't present not even on the Territories, colonies, & dependencies part.

Now, see the Countries site just to see more sources (repetition...)

I would also advise you to see the Maps of the Countries in the world. Naturally, Kosovo isn't a country, so it isn't present, but Serbia and Montenegro with it's international borders (with Kosovo-Metohija) is... --HolyRomanEmperor 16:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

not gonna waste my time with you. Ilir pz 17:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with HolyRomanEmperor. CIA's documents are the hard facts of the story. --www.doc 17:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo

Now, if you see the infoplease for Kosovo, you will see that it says Kosovo or Kosovo-Metohija. Note that the West prefers Bosnia-Herzegovina over Bosnia and Herzegovina. Didn't you say that Metohija isn't recognized? Well, neither is Kosovo, but you keep calling it a country. Oh, and Metohija is recognized. You will also see Kosovo (Serbia and Montenegro)

You want official? Well, how more official can it be than the saying that it is a province of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (a. k. a. Serbia and Montenegro).

If you think that anything changes when a name is changed, I don't know simply what to think... --HolyRomanEmperor 16:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia--Hipi Zhdripi 03:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
So now you are 'discussing' and Litany is reverting? or you confused your accounts? You are getting the situation back to the revert war, with your irony, irrensponsible reverting, and irrelevant sources. Don't blame it on me then. and infoplease is NOT a HOLLY source, please! Take care, Ilir pz 16:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
User:Ilir pz, if you are going to make any thin-veiled accusations on sockpuppetry, I advise to justify your comments. Otherwise, this could bring unpleasant consequences upon you for such an irresponsible behaviour. I am aware this is not the first time you make feeble accusations about other wikipedians. Please remember this is an encyclopedia not your Gjakmarrja. Stick to Wikipedia guidelines and policies, not to your own Kanun. I am more than happy with taking you to arbitration if you do not change your behaviour. Regards, Asterion 17:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

From Kosovo:

Kosovo or Kosovo-Metohija (kô'sôvô-metô'khēä) [key], Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet, province (2002 est. pop. 1,900,000), 4,126 sq mi (10,686 sq km), S Serbia and Montenegro, in Serbia. Priština is the chief city. The largely mountainous region includes the fertile valleys of Kosovo and Metohija and is drained by tributaries of the Morava (Velika Morava) and Drin rivers. Agriculture, stock raising, forestry, and mining are the major occupations. Kosovo's population before 1999 was about 80% Albanian; ethnic Albanians now make up about 88% of the inhabitants.

Ilir, you keep repeating, and that is fine with me. You and I can think whatever we want, but our opinion simply doesn't matter. P. S. it's fine that you love your homeland, but what you think about the over-50% unemployement and the ever-growing criminal and corruption within the government? Including people like Agin Ceku in power? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC) HolyRomanEmperor how manny user name youu have hier in en:Wikipedia?

You said: None believes those estimations, or census made by the previous occupatory regime in Kosova.

If none believe, why do they put it in every single Encyclopedia and the whole world recognizes it?

You also said So now you are 'discussing' and Litany is reverting? or you confused your accounts? If you need an CheckUser, go for it. Going around acusing users for being sockpuppets won't acomplish you anything.

You've obviously mistaken regarding my user name. Please see the Holy Roman Emperor article.

P. S. Please stop pushing POV agenda and read WP:NPOV and WP:POV policies. Thank you! --HolyRomanEmperor 17:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
You are hier in Wikipedia --Hipi Zhdripi 03:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
in Kosova people have been even less employed from 1989 to 1999, many more corrupted people(killers?!) were sucking our blood, and we survived, but thanks for caring. This is another reason why the independence of Kosova should be formalized so we have access to WMF and develop further. That will happen soon. As of Ceku, I am not his advisor to know his qualities. He has been evaluated as one of the best PM's by the UN Admin of Kosovo, Mr. Petersen. Time will tell. We can only have "fun" wasting each others time, as Kosovo's path to independence is not dependent on this article. Boris initiated, and I thought of joining this initiative for a NEW start, but seems like there are no people ready to calm down. Best,Ilir pz 17:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I asked you to explain your disliking of the version, and you didn't respond.

Please, c'mon. You offered no arguements, no sourced claims and you now keep insulting. Why do you keep up with this? What have we done so that you hate Wikipedia so much?

This situation reminds me when the Axis forces tried to fight the World War II, or when a guy was claiming that Mehmed-pasha Sokolović was a Bosniak, rather than a Serb just because he converted from Orthodoxy to Islam. You fight the Wikipedia, my friend, and if you continue, I'm afraid that you will pass like them... --HolyRomanEmperor 17:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Hasn't time already told? I've seen with my own eyeswhat Ceku's men did in Operation Medak Pocket fighting against the United Nations and most certainly you remember Operation Storm.
AFAIC, this article is about an ongoing event. Kosovo's way to independence; but until it achieves it's independence, it should stay as the world/facts say - non-independent.
NON STATUT AREA (is not independent but has no serbien power ther, is no solder from Serbia, is NATO and the Kosovars power)
P. S. In case you haven't heard, the world is split onto Countries and not territories, except for the Antarctica, which no one can possess. There are disputed territories, but if they aren't independent, they are parts of another entity. Such is the case Cyprus-Turkish Republic of North Cyprus easily compared with this one Serbia-Kosovo_Metohija. Regards --HolyRomanEmperor 17:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
You are making the personal war, that has nothing to do with aticel. kosovo it as a part of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and together with Serbia, Vojvodina have maket the Socialist Republic of Serbia this Republic is not existin any more, only in UN paper. Is kaput, brocken. And now Serbia and Vojvodina hase diesedet to go together but Kosovo is going samwer els. If you thing hat Serbia s a country you are wrong. If you write thatt kosovo is a provinc of Serbia is Wrong. You most write Kosovo is Part of Yougoslavia and together with Serbia and the Socialis Autonum Province Vojvodina makes the SR Serbia. There was 8 veto in Yogslavia, it wosen t 6+2. If Serbia wont to be indenpendent thay must at first take away from SR Serbia in another keys Serbia is a provinc (pardon only a teritory nothing els) in SR of Serbia (think a littel Ney York City, New York State is not tha same) --Hipi Zhdripi 03:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Serbia is not a country. It's a state. Kosovo is not a country. It's a province. Kosovo didn't make SFRJ with Serbia. Kosovo was an autonomous part of several territories of Serbia. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
He has a point Iliz, now can you both please stop arguing and start agreeing for once? :) I'd like to see this page fixed, like many other wikipedians do. --www.doc 17:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, Ilir pushed at the [ History's Edit summary] that Litany is restarting the edit war. Ilir, Litany didn't restart the edit war. He didn't even start the edit war. You did, my friend. You also acused him of endorsing personal opinion changes. So far, everyone has been agreeing except you. Don't you think that you are pushing your own personal opinion changes? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see this edit war ends, and stop fighting facts! --JustUser 21:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Reverting

I think someone should stop people from reverting content of the article, without any comment or explanation.............

User:Ilir_pz

...is the one who's been conducted all the reverting. He abandoned the discussion long ago, which made me sad, I thought that we could finally communicate, but he's not interested in talk, only war... --HolyRomanEmperor 00:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Your user page

This articel is not your user page. You are deletin all my work. In Kosovo are not only serb. Ther are the "Crnagori" - montengrins too. They don t speek your launguage and they are not serb.--Hipi Zhdripi 02:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Try not to be stupid. Don't generalize and blame Serbs for someone deleting your work which is, by the way, incorrect. For your information, Montenegrins speak Serbian Language. Even if they deny it, which would be apsurd, it is truth, but 66% of Montenegrins says that they speak Serbian language with ijekavian dialect. Second, Montenegrins are nation, but again Montenegrins are Serb. It is stupid to say that Montenegrins are not Serbs, or Serbs Montenegrins, so please read some literature and come to write articles on wikipedia. PS: Don't forget to learn English :))

--Mephistophilus 12:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


This issue should be discussed in your own user talk pages as it is unrelated to the article. Regards, Asterion 13:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

He started this subject so I had to answer. Further conversation about this subject is unnecessary. :) --Mephistophilus 10:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to say Montenegrins are Serbs?! Bring here your facts for it! I didn’t hear until now any Montenegrins saying they are Serbian. And I know really a lot of them. Why do you call it then “Serbia and Montenegro” and not “Serbia and Serbia”?! I mean, what are you trying to say is ridiculous. P:S. Please try not to offend other users here. Your English is also not as perfect as you think. What you wrote is just a method of personal attacking, while you are trying to deviate from the actual article theme.--Mig11 10:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Non status area

Kosovo is non status are. It is under the UN control till they determined the satatut.

http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/03albanian/A2000regs/RA2000_45.pdf

http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/04serbian/SC2000regs/RSC2000_45.pdf

PRIVREMENE INSTITUCIJE 1.1 Do odredjivawa bududjeg statusa Kosova, ova Uredba, u skladu Rezolucijom 1244 Saveta bezbednosti Ujediwenih nacija, uspostavqa privremene institucije za demokratsku i autonomnu samoupravu na op{tinskom nivou kao korak ka postepenom prenosu administrativnih nadle`nosti Privremene administrativne misije Ujediwenih nacija na Kosovu (UNMIK- koja }e nadgledati i pru`ati podr{ku konsolidaciji ovih institucija.


I think if you accept like the serbs in Kosovo accept this document that you are going to anderstuden that the onl law in Kosovo is the UNMIK-law til = Do odredjivawa the statut of Kosovo is determined.

As I said previously, Kosovo is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 [18][19], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your side.

Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. I understand that English is not your native language, as neither is mine, but could you at least use a spellchecker? It is very hard to follow your line of thoughts. Also, please stop using Albanian and Serbo-Croatian language in the talk pages, as you are probably aware that this is the English language wikipedia and your actions could be understood as disrespectful for wikipedians who do not master those languages. Regards, Asterion 13:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You are maken a mistet. That wath you are saying is the Serbien Law but, not the International Law. Give me a clean document from the UN (International Law) in wich is standin Kosovo is the Serbian provinc. I can give yua the docment from UN (International Law) in wich is : Kosovo is a Provinc in Balkan.--Hipi Zhdripi 18:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You can take alle that an put in the Serbians inteprataton for (International Law)--Hipi Zhdripi 18
23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The sane user with many user acont

The users account User:HolyRomanEmperor and User:Asterion are maken a community only too make the war edit. They dont let me to help in en:Wikipedia. They foil my planes for evry articel wich it has too do with Kosovo. They are not interested to do a work for Wikipedia, but to stopp and destroi my work in en:Wikipedia. They use the Three-revert rule police, I dont wont to make in hier another accont only to make war with this user.--Hipi Zhdripi 02:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Really? I would like to discuss; but none do... Does that make that? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

hey

i am not going into this discussion as, i would be biased to everything you write her, but to be a sort of source of info you really should gets your facts right. especially when all the things you are mentioning here is what people have died for the last 2000years.

Trolling

I don't feed trolls. Best answer to inflamatory comments is to ignore them. Hipi Zhdripi and/or Ilir pz, you have shown no respect for other wikipedians and I politely ask you to retract what you are saying. Making false accusations will ultimately get you banned. Asterion 06:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Asterion: it is very obvious that you are the one here, who does not have any respect for other wikipedians. It is not fair now to accuse others. And it is also very obvious, that you are attacking every user, who tries to protect the Kosova article from users with Serbian ultranationalist ideas. Maybe you should start to think about this things, before you accuse other users.--Mig11 12:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that Ilir pz has said Please block Asterion vandal for six times before this. He keeps using words like nazi-like Serbian propaganda, while his revert war buddies run around wiki and keep calling me (and others) shitheads and then placing Personal Attack warnings themselves! People will get respect when they show respect. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
what respect do you want me to show for people who are determined to change anything that has to do with Albanians, to make pro-Serbian comments all over those wiki pages??? I dont think I will have respect for them. And yes, the way reverting is being done is nothing but extreme-Seselj like nationalism, which you claim openly to support, and all the world has accused of war crimes. User asterion for example, supports SPS. Isn't that the party that lead (and lost) 4 wars in ex yug, killing so many innocents, including serbs? excuse me, no further comment needed. The revert game will continue until these vandals are stopped. Mig11 you have by backing, I can help you in this. THank you, Ilir pz 21:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir pz, you are driving people off this page. You are a test for anyone's patience. Every single wikipedians who has tried to NPOVise this article has grown fatigued of your edit wars. You have no intention of improving the article, just "fixing it" to suit your personal views. You keep saying "Do not revert. Discuss", when in fact you are the only person not doing so. Remember Panonian's attempt to elaborate over possible NPOV points? You simply disregarded his efforts and threatened him with vandalise any Serbian article in revenge unless he gave up. That's the spirit I guess! Your behaviour is just not mature or adult-like at all. Once again, I invite you to list the points you find non-factual from the article instead continuing your pointless edit war. If not, I shall be seeking arbitration. This is your last warning. Regards, Asterion 00:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

and look who is talking. The guy who is reverting automatically using popups nowadays. This is a way to discuss for you? I have shown understanding to those who showed a little understanding. I keep calling for compromise. I send invitations to start a new approach. Whereas you and HRE keep reverting without even considering my proposals. "not mature and adult-like at all" is a personal attack! Thanks for it. No need to send me warnings, and offenses, I disregard them completely.Ilir pz 00:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you prepared to reflect on your behaviour and elaborate on the points you find suffering of POV or are you going to carry on with your reverts? Also, please note that by using Wikipedia, you are bound to its policies. Otherwise, you will get banned as your friend Hipi Zhdripi. Therefore, disregarding them is not an option. Asterion 00:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't answer to you until you apologize for the personal offense above. Ilir pz 09:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion: You are not neutral. You are trying to ban in Wikipedia all the people that don’t share your opinions. You are calling every user that doesn’t share your opinion a sock puppet of someone else. That is not fair, it is not neutral and it doesn’t help us to improver this article! I am not even trying for the moment to write something new in this article, because I see what is happening with everything that doesn’t share your personal opinions. You have been reverting everything that doesn’t fit with your point of view. This article is not your personal homepage. It is very sad to see, that after all what happened between and with Serbian and Albanian people in Kosova, there are yet people who try to deny the historical facts about this country, and still go on with a Serbian propaganda. I mean, I understand it, it is hard to remove yourself from the influence of the Serbian medial brainwashing machine, but you should try it! This propaganda didn’t destroy just the Albanian live in Kosova but also the Serbian one. Look where are they now. The Serbian country was never, in its whole history, smaller as it is now. Don’t try to use Wikipedia for Serbian propaganda. Wikipedia is democratic and not a dictatorship, and is free for everyone. Also for the people who don’t share your point of view. You can’t ban all of them! --Mig11 10:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

{{sprotected}}

This article has been {{sprotected}} due to probable sockpuppet editing by the blocked. Will review in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your prompt action. Best regards, Asterion 01:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia and free to edit for everyone. Things that you are trying to sell to us here as a truth, are not fair and don’t have to do anything with historical facts. It is called Kosovo or Kosova and not Kosovo and Metohija. Look at the UN pages, and how they call it. Kosova is now administrated by them! 95% of people living there named it like this. To write your personal opinions and then try to protect them from every one who doesn’t share them, that my friend breaks every Wikipedia rule! --Mig11 10:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting how they request protections, once they have their version set there. Don't you notice, Mig11?? This is a great tactic, but I don't think it is going to work. Thos that consider this article their personal property will be stopped. Ilir pz 10:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that you must unprotect. becose the user Asterion don wont to make a real artikel about the Serbia how hie wont to say "purper Serbia" . My friend the purper Serbia in english language is Serbia. If yo say that the Kosovo is part of serbia then you mus make a new artikel abot the "purper Serbia". Go a hade maket and the aricel in wich is standin that Kosovo is a part of Social Republic of Serbia. This state dont exist anymore.--Vete 02:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Asterion go maket. And then acplane the words "purpel", "littel" and "central" - Serbia--Hipi Zhdripi 20:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hipi Zhdripi you were in breach of your 24hs block when using your sockpuppet Vete, instead using this period to reflect on your actions. Asterion 21:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but so many users here speak English badly. Could you improve it so that we can all understand you? --HolyRomanEmperor 22:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Serbian entries

Dear Albanian friends, while Serbs have managed to wiki-capture your country (by blocking it), please help us improve entries on Serbia.

I do not approve of your actions, my friend. I still feel that we can reach a consensus here, as I suppose people will call their reason and be more constructive when editing this highly sensitive and disputable article. I am not sure I would support you in vandalizing their sites, even if they vandalize my beloved country's wiki site. I am not like them. Thanks for inviting, Ilir pz 10:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with ilir_pz that vandalism should not be in our defence strategy.

Naming and map

On top of the page of the article it is NOT "Kosovo OR Kosovo and Met.", please stop reverting to that. The Metohija part is the Serbian way of saying, feel free to have it in the Serbian naming part, not in the official one. And the map MUST NOT show it as a part of any country, as long as its status is not determined. READ: Kosovo's status is YET to be determined. I propose to include the following picture, as it shows where Kosova is located in the map of Europe [20]. If you keep including maps with Metohija names, and where Kosovo is shown as part of Serbia, you will only inspire people to revert it. It is a natural reaction from Albanians in Kosova, as we've had enough of that for more than a decade now. Thank you for understanding, Ilir pz 10:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be Kosovo and Kosova on the top of the page, and not Kosovo and Metohija.--Mig11 11:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Mig11 you are totally missing the point. It should only be Kosovo since this is the English Wikipedia. Kosovo-Metohija is for Serbian Wikipedia and Kosova is for Albanian. These names should only be in the introduction. The end.
Ilir pz I like your initiative very much but as long as you delete important information in your reverting I must revert back. Sadly.
Still Kosovo is a part of Serbia-Montenegro. Even if it not will be in the future it still is. Therefore the map should stay. When that day comes we will change it. Deal?
There is no use of having a picture of Decani monistery in the History Section when it allready is in teh Gallery Section. - Litany
I am not missing the point! Kosovo is not the English name for it. Maybe it is used like that in some media, but in others you also find Kosova, and in English you can find both of them. “Kosovo” is in Serbian, “Kosova” in Albanian. Many of the land names in English have an “a”-letter at the end, for example the ex-Yu-lands: Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina etc, and Kosova sounds actually much more melodic in English than Kosovo. But since there are Albanian and Serbian the official languages, we should use both of them, and both of them are also in English accepted! That is the only neutral solution! You don’t want to accept the truth, that more than 90% of people in Kosova name their own land just Kosova! And another point: the president and the prime minister are not transitional; they were regularly and democratically elected under the UN observation. Don’t forget, this article don’t belong to you. It doesn’t bring anything just to delete and revert the whole time! The end! --Mig11 22:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The only oficel name is "Kosovo"--Hipi Zhdripi 18:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Litany, I don't like the deal you are proposing. And if you went through what I did, you would understand better, but since you don't then I understand you, and I will explain. I lived myself in Norway, and I understand being a Scandinavian (read: not knowing what war is, and just spending your Kroner on travelling to Canarin Islands, and bays of Mexico, etc) you could NEVER understand this issue. Having a gf from ex-yug doesnt give you the right to "sadly" change here and not take the other party's perspective into consideration. Leave all this aside. To answer your remark now: I think that the 1244 resol(sh**) it is saying enough about what part is whose part, and I am tired of you mentioning it all the time. I don't like the map on the infobox. It is not informative at all. I proposed a map [21] which would point at Kosovo as a location in Europe. If I were a Thai visitor I would instead want to know where that place is located first. Infobox should state that, not the dispute illustrated. Otherwise I will GLADLY remove it, as it is irritating. Thank you.Ilir pz 19:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, I never expected you to like it. Still you are reverting and giving me little choice then to revert it back since you are always excluding important information. Even if you hate this it must be there.
Haha this is so sad. A bad explenation and just showing your prejudice against Scandinavians, like I would have alot of money and going abroad all the time.
I'm sorry that you had to experiance war, and I hope you belive me. I know alot better everything then you could ever image. You have one point of view and you will never give it up. And still I think with my experiance and knowledge I understand this better then you for the wikipedia sake.
We (Swedes) have a long, long tradition of democracy, something you should strive for. When Finland diden't give back Åland, which is 100% Swedish, after Russia withdrew, we took the question to the League of Nations. The League of Nations diden't care about the Åläningar and let them stay in Finland. But we never started a war. Not even when Norway broke the "union" in 1905 did we start a war. Something to learn for all sides in Balkan. But democracy will you NEVER understand as long as you keep on living in this narrow view.
Please show me some understanding and some will to spread your views. By exchanging ideas and information we will always learn new things. My best Litany
Litany, I admire Scandinavians. What I said was that you are one of those that doesn't have to wake up with war traumas, and worry that a new war might erupt soon, because your neighbours are voting Seselj and might be ready for that as well soon. The way Norway (and I celebrated the 100th anniversary in Oslo) seceeded from Sweden is a way the disputes in ex-yug should have been solved. My point of view is based on more than 2 decades of experience, reading lots of literature, following all news events going on (reminder: because my life was in the line). I attempted to spread my views, several times. If you check below, there is yet another proposal from my side. One question to you: Do you support the independence of Kosova? Before you answer let me just give you a small hint: Slovenes(slavic),Croats(also),Macedonians(also),Bosnians(also),now even Montenegro(slavic mainly) secedeed or will soon. Kosovo (90%Albanian, non-slavic, have suffered most from the previous mentioned areas of ex-yug). Does one have to look further? Give me one reason why Kosova should be within the Union of SCG? one! This question could be directed to other revert-warriors as well. I am curious to hear. Just don't give me 1244 as an answer, or "heart of Serbian nation", please! America's president is not from Apache tribe. Talk today, talk facts! Thank you for reading, Ilir pz 22:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ilir pz, you are confusing me. You are also avoiding my questions and advices. Of course the split of Yugoslavia whould have been like the one between Sweden and Norway. I can tell you that Wikipedia is NOT for PERSONAL OPINIONS. Therfor I will not answear your question whenever I want to see a Independant Repubulic of Kosova, or if Kosovo and Methoija should stay within the Union of SCG. It woulden't change my opinions on anything if they whould be independant or if they would stay. The most important is the best for the people and to keep the culture heritage of all peoples. If you want to know a very good reason why the question about Kosovos independance should be on the hold? More areas like, western Macedonia, Sandzak and Republika Srpska could strive for independance and this whould only be more unstable for the whole region and maybe in the worst case produce more wars. My opinion is baised that education, democracy and finacial investments are the only way for Kosovo and the rest of Balkan to be a peaceful part of Europe. From now on I will answear on your talk page, since we are commited to two discussions with the same topics. Best regards Litany

Discussion from the past

Who knows how to make a link to discussion from the past to put them in archive but accessable? It would be helpful.

they are accessible. check archives. Ilir pz 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

E vetmja zgjidhje

E vetmja zgjidhje është që Sebërt ta bojin një artike "Molo Serbia"= "Litel Serbia" dhe një artikull "Velika Serbia"=Great Serbia. Në artikullin e fundit mujin mi shti Kosovën. Po atëher gjithë historin që e kanë shkru për Sërbin e që është e lidhne për terenin e Kosovë duhet me u qujtë historia e Kosovës. Edhe historia e banorëve të këtij tereni duhet e u thirrë historia e Kosovarëve. Krejt pincat që janë të prezentunë si serb e që vijin prej Kosovës duhet me u dryshu që janë kosovar. Mos u brengosni se këtë punë kurr nuk pranojin. Pasi që ata nuk e pranojin qashtu duhet me gjetë kompromisin. Edhe gjitha artikujt që kanë të bëjnë me Kosovën duhet me qenë të ndame ashtu si janë në praktikë. Në artikullin e Serbia and Montenego mujin me përmen në pjesën e parë që Kosova ende është antare e RSFJ. Nsërsa Serbia (Malo Serbia dhe Vojvodina) dhe Mali i zi (Malcia) janë në lidhje shtetrore (nuk është kjo as Union as Federat apo Konfederat por në anglisht thuhet Bound). Nëse dëshironi ndonjëri mund ta përkëthejë përmiq tanë në botë në gjuhen angleze.

only English here please.Ilir pz 19:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Semi protection notice removal

This notce has been removed several times (deliberate or not). May I just remind users that since this page is semi protected, a semi protection notice should be included on the page. I can't really think of any possible conflict surrounding that. Therefore may I request it is left in place until semi protection is removed. Thanks! Ian13/talk 20:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Non status Area

See: the serb version of Kosovo

...still unclear, as the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government...--Hipi Zhdripi 22:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

SFRY

The use Asterion have a problem with him self. He gives to me the better argumet that I have finde in internet.

(last) 22:13, 11 April 2006 Asterion (What are you on about now? The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is dead since 1991)

  • Becoese that Kosovo is without status. Becose that is Non Status Area. Becose that is UN ther. Becose that is Vienne. Pleace dont rev.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Are you agree with this argument. --Hipi Zhdripi 22:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

If you know better than I Engish, that is dosen t maen that you know somthing about Kosovo, but you are only trying to make Edit war in Kosovo page. --Hipi Zhdripi 22:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, I know I am quite possibly wasting my time trying to make you understand but here we go:
1) Kosovo final status is undecided. (We seem to agree on this)
2) Kosovo is stil part of Serbia and Montenegro, which is the sucessor state for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Refer to UN Security Council resolution (quoted many times already, my friend, but you still insist on negating this fact)
Note: The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist nearly 15 years ago. Please do not confuse it with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, consisting only of the states of Serbia and Montenegro (therefore your previous edits mentioning the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are really peculiar ?)
Regards, Asterion 22:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit war

How is maken her war? Go and make war in Serbian seits?--Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


Stop talking about war, for Pete's sake! This is an encyclopedia not a battleground. Can you reply to my two questions I made above? These are the only two issues you insist on arguing about. So, can you explain your reasons against them? Asterion 23:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

My contribution

I feel that I have to add something. Please note that the temporary solution defines Kosovo as a territory of Serbia and Montenegro under UN administration. Note that it's not defined as a part of Serbia, but the Union rather. This is mostly because they anticipated the future most probable status of Kosovo, a state within the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro.
However, you must realize that Serbia's (and the Union's) consitution defines Kosovo as an autonomous region, temporary under UN administration. The current borders of Serbia (and SCG) are internationally recognized and used everywhere (with Kosovo-Metohija). However, Kosovo is nowhere treated as an entity indistinct from Serbia (and most definatly not indistinct from the S-M), as no faction in the world sees it that way. I suggest that a possible compromise is that we should add that the Kosovar Albanian goverment refuses the Belgrade suzeiranity and considers it not a part of Serbia, and then the other side of the story (Serbia & the world), however, pointing it not an official part of Serbia and Montenegro is, francly, I apologize for the expression, but it is, really nonsensical. Hope that you will solve the case! --HolyRomanEmperor 23:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong category

Somebody placed this article into "Serbia and Montenegro" category, but it should be moved to "Subdivisions of Serbia and Montenegro" category since "Serbia and Montenegro" category is for "Serbia and Montenegro" article only. Can somebody of administrators to change this category? PANONIAN (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

watch this

This is a part from Hipi defensiever War. I dont wont to be a part of this Serbians Govermant Propaganda. --Hipi Zhdripi 22:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

"Medieval - The arrival of Serbs, the unified Serbian Lands and the Serb Kingdom"

OK I accept the serbs are all sllavs in Balkan. Wat is meaning "serb"?


In year 2000 to is meaning War in Sllovenia, War in Croatia, War in Bosnja, War in Kosovo, War in Serbia, War in Wikipedia. The futer War Planet Earh.

Wat is meaning "serb"?

What are you talking about? Serb is an adverb. What does OK I accept the serbs are all sllavs in Balkan mean? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Medieval - The arrival of Serbs, the unified Serbian Lands and the Serb Kingdom

NO COMENT, --Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

70% af the articel is "History" , 10% is links, 19,999999 Images.

Sorry I was wrong : 13:36, 15 April 2006 Asterion (RV to last comprehensive version due to unexplained deletion of 80% of the article by it was 80%--Hipi Zhdripi 13:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
NO COMMENT ...

The Realty in Kosovo is:

and

You can put, and put, you can work to destroy Wikipedia (You cant do nothing in Kosovo). If you are so sure that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, go in Kosovo. Dont tell the word how pure you are. In Sllovenia war, Croatia War, Bosnja War, Kosovo War and Serbia War you was LOSER. Hello hier is not Kosovo hier is the articel about Kosovo. Dont lose your time go and kille the peopel ther.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Im very, very sorry about my neigborse in Balkan becose they are payeing this stiupid propaganda. They have the reale ekonomikel problems and must see how the Sebian Govermant is given mony to make the propaganda in Wikiedia. Wach ever artikel wich has to do with Balkan they hawe put ther spions and workers only to tell the Word that balkan is liven in Medieval time. This Serbiens Govermand hier in Kosovo artike is this argument. Sorry peopel Im a Wikipedian and I cant fite with that most corruptit govermant in Balkan wich are payen this propaganda. The peopel in Serbia (Belgrad are living so many peopel in the street) dont have nothing to eat, and they govermant is given mony to War Edits in Wikipedia. My argument is not so bad. Watch he histori of the eache artikel and you are going to understand wat Im meaning. Event if you dont understand my word you are going to see wat Im traying to say. It is esay.

Welcomen to the Empire of Serbia over Balkan (The image it was a maestak ther is no Vojvodina, alarm call the UDBA to kill Hipi Zhdripi) in Wikipedia eith the payet mony from the Serbian Govermant.

This is a speed War Edition from Serbian Govermant, but shit it dosent work in real life, in Prishtina is still "Skederbeg"--Hipi Zhdripi 23:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Word "SERB"

Please can sombody translet the Word "SERB". Wat that word is meaning in english. And they call himself Serb. Go in Prishtina, meat a old man, ask him to sing a song from history and then you are going to know wat is that word in english. This word Servia from slav maket to Serbia is meaning in albanian north dialeckt .... . Please do me a fiwer go in the Rashka, Prizren and Deqani trink a Raki with a Pope ther and user this chance to asked him to go to the church arkive. --Hipi Zhdripi 00:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... Me not understand. Me no speak as good as you. Me thinks you should learn to speak Engleziet.

Me too dont andersten my self (hehe.. ) but this you cann anderset. You asked, for it http://www.montenegro.org/origins.html--Hipi Zhdripi 23:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

But enough of this. I honestly don't see how this guy can contribute to this Wikipedia, he obviously speaks almost no English. Also, even when he does write something in medium-clear English, it still makes no sense. I've seen he's a good contributor to Shqip Wiki, but seriously, Hipi, learn English and then come back here (if you have the need). This has gone too far. Also, I think he may be trying to tell us something about the word "Serb"... Good luck finding out what... --serbiana - talk 00:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Boris let us try to understand the man, though his level of English is not as good as the rest. He can still have a say. Thanks,Ilir pz 22:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hippi Zhdripi

...is talking very bad English. I'm sorry to object this harshly, but this is getting ridiculous, as I managed to decipher only every 3rd word and other users even less.

Check again. The history sections' 50-60%. Ofcourse this should be the most important part; Kosovo has a very, very rich history (at least richer than most parts of the world).

Perhaps things would've been better if the User stated what he wanted to say.

Sincerely. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

HolyRomanEmperor je si li ti pravoslavac ili albanc? Ili, ne znas sta si? zasto si ovu ime preuzeo. Pa ljudi moj ko zna sta si, ali ti znas da treba ta svasta radis samo neka bude Velika Serbia. Ko to kaze ko to laze da Serbia je Mala, gledaj Wikipedi u engleski sta je radila. Probudi se moj sine i gledaj u Skaderbgu u Pristinu.--Kanuni 16:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Kanuni, odnosno Hippi Zhdripi, jel' su te roditelji ucili da nije pristojno pitati nekog sta je po nacionalnosti? Ili su mozda bili zauzeti predavanjima o zlocinima Srba? Imas albansku vikipediju, knock yourself out. --serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hej, Hipi zna da u Kosovo (Pec, Djakovica ...nema srbi samo "cërnagor" to nisu "shka") Crnogorci. Gledaj u Ulcinj. Ako mislite ovako i za Crnogorci kao za Albanci, treba da razmislite, u Novi Pazar "Njegosh". Pa nisu svi pravoslavci Srbi, ovi placeni ljudi iz Moske hoce da svi pravolslavci bude Srbi. U Kosovo su 7 % pravslavci to ne znaci samo za propaganda kaziti da su svih srbi bolje bi bilo da kaze se pravoslavci ili slaveni. I sa ovom je odgovoren zasto su vecina albanaca u Kosovo muslimanci i da su sve crkve u Kosovo izgubilu su narod. A sad kaze da su srbski crkve. Te ckve su Dugagjin s Crkve i pripadaju Kosovo, bilo kako je bio to je istina. Crkva ne boj se jeli su to albanci, srbi, crnogori ili turci za crkvu je vazno katolici, muslimani i orthodokski. Ako ne verujet, svaki Pop koj je interesieran moze da gleda u bizantisku arkivu. A taj arkiv je u Istambolu (Konstatinopol-polje). Ne znaci da Polje je slavenski jezik to ti je Ilirski sada se kaze albaski jeszik ili stari grcki jezik. ++ --Kanuni 17:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Ne samo da lose govoris engleski, vec i srpski (doduse, drago mi je sto srpski govoris bolje nego engleski). Ja volim sve Albance koji ne mrze mene kao Srbina, a imam i Crnogorske krvi. Ako crkve na Kosovu nisu srpske, zasto ih palite i unistavate? Inace, for your information, za muslimansku crkvu se kaze "dzamija" ili "mosque". A ovo ostalo ne bih ni komentarisao jer nema nikakvog smisla. Hippi, stop using Kanuni as your sockpuppet. --serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Wacht this http://www.montenegro.org/origins.html--Hipi Zhdripi 23:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

My Son, They burn the church becose the priste is saying tha the Church is Serbian Church. Nevermain. If your blood is "crnogorske" (montenegrin) way yo dont say that you are the montenegrin, but evry time wat you write hier is "the serbian land, serbien peopel, sebien nation, serbie, serbien, serbien..... Way? if it is the same montenegrin=serb then writte that the slavik peopel in Kosovo are montenegrins or lette the Wikipedians to know the true. No, no-no you are half serb and half russian.--Hipi Zhdripi 19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm half-Serb, half-Croat, for your information. Also, burning a church is a crime no matter what the priest is saying, and people who burn churches are criminals, vandals, and should be punished by the law. Sadly, in Kosovo, if Albanians are comitting a crime, there is no law to stop them, especially if they're acting against Serbs. Also, it's spelled WHY, and not WAY. And don't call me your Son, it just makes me... I don't want to say it. --serbiana - talk 19:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I tried to communicate with Hipi, but it didn't work. He's silent. Hipi, the relations between Montenegrins and Serbs are the same like between Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Albanians. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
You are saying that is the same Serbian Nation ad Montenegro Nation.?--Hipi Zhdripi 22:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

To burn a church is wrong, to burn hiself is wrong. But they hat Serbia so much that if you say i am a serb they forget themself. Way the montenegrins in kosovo dont hawe a problems. They live together with albanians arond the Peja, Prizren, Istog and Gjakova. Ther are to many maontenegrins who dont care about the Belgrad they make they bisnes. I was last year in montenegro. My Ongel live ther in Gucia. I drinket Raki with him and his neigbor (cërnagor komshia), he trait all the time to be neutral. He dont wontit to call him serb, and he says claer that he is a "Cërnagor" and Njegosh son. He accepet that the invasion of Montenegro and Serbia in albanian teritory after the albaners hawe drop the osmans from Uskup/Skopje it was not fair. And he says that he anderstand that this is going to be not acceptet from albaners, becose he know the Albanian Kanun, ist strikt and dont late plecases for treachery. The Begrad (ruso-serb) have make tthe same thing with, knin and the hercegovina. The put the Knins and herzegovina in the name of Serbia in War agains the family and the treachery. So I dont care wat you and who you are but if you hawe live in Balkan you must know "The Kanun" or how the "pravoslavci" says "Justian Codex". --Hipi Zhdripi 22:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

This is becoming a Serbian forum. Stick to English please, no matter how bad the quality might be. Thank you, Ilir pz 22:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf

On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration ‘To the Serbian People’, proclaiming:

“The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.”

Wach the Milosevic declaration to the "serbian" in Kosovo befor the Balkan Wars in year 1900-2000.

Yet another another another .....another attempt to call for reason in this group of wikipedians

Last edits I think the current version is quite neutral. Let the map show Kosovo only. To satisfy the other party in the text it is mentioned the holly 1244 document. Aditionally, official languages should be listed alphabetically "Albanian/Serbian" or majority based "Albanian/Serbian". No need to revert that, it is not very wise thing to do. Forget about your saved versions, and let us contribute to the current version. Hope reason prevails, and no irrational war mongering editors appear. Thank you. Ilir pz 22:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think that Albanian, Serbian namings has to be put at the beginning of the article also to reflect the majority; and then Serbian, Albanian official language to reflect what is officialized within the International Community. This way both sides are satisfied.
Disagree with the mapping. All non-independent territorial entities (see: Vojvodina, Lika or similiar are shown as parts of the Country/State they belong to. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Kosova belongs to its people, HRE, if you must know. For it is only they who will decide for its future. Live with it! Ilir pz 10:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Uhm, I'm not sure that I get you my friend. You didn't cite a law/rule. Please be official and specific. Kosovo is a UN-administered province of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro. I've been in BiH and heard how "the status of Republika Srpska is unresolved and will mostly likely result in independence, as RS belongs to its people". I hate that kind of unofficial rhethoric nonsence.

Link to the version I rv-ed

Right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&oldid=48482057. --estavisti 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

We hawe two way

We cann late the version of the Serban Goverment Propaganda (SGP) or we prasent Kosovo like Kosovo is prasentit in the UN. Kosovo is it prasent in UN from UNMIK. I dont think that for Wikipedians the Serbien law is more importen then UN Law. The only Kosovo represantiv body for Kosovo in UN is UNMIK. You cann intepret and play wich game you will, but the realy is this UNMIK--Hipi Zhdripi 01:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, I've having trouble understanding what this user wishes to communicate. This discussion is simply pointless, as one side does not have an ability to articulate its views in English. --estavisti 01:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

A
  1. Law of Yougoslawia / RS Serbia = Serbia + SAP Kosovo + SAP Vojvodian; RS of Serbia flag; (1992)
  2. Law of UN / Serbia (Serbia + SAP Vojvodiana)under serbian flag - Kosovo UN flag (up 1999)
  3. Law of Milosevic Serbia / Serbia with subdivision under serbian flag - (1992-1999)
  4. Serbian Goverment Propaganda/ Serbia + Provice Vojvodina + Province Kosovo i Metohija; Serbian flag (up 2000)
A1
  1. SAP of Kosovo ist paralel a part of SFR of Yogoslavia and the pat of SR of Serbia.
  2. Kosovo is a Provinc in Balkan.
  3. Kosovo is a hard of Serbia and is not a Provice see: Serbiens districts
  4. Kosovo is administretit fro UN and is a Serbians Provinc

In wikipedia in this time is.

B for Serbia
  1. Law of UN / Serbia (Serbia + SAP Vojvodiana)under serbian flag - Kosovo UN flag (up 1999)
B for Kosovo
    1. Serbian Goverment Propaganda/ Serbia + Provice Vojvodina + Province Kosovo i Metohija; Serbian flag (up 2000)

--Hipi Zhdripi 02:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

LEARN ENGLISH, HIPI! Before you do that, I don't want to see you on this talk page. --serbiana - talk 02:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

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