Talk:Konrad Lorenz
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[edit] World war II
What is clear is that his published writing during the Nazi period included support for Nazi ideas of "racial hygiene", couched in pseudo-scientific metaphors. This assertion would be stronger if we had the titles of some Lorenz articles on "racial hygiene." (If they could be given in English translation, that would be very courteous and would make the point clearly.) Wetman 08:03, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
McCann51, whoever you are, could you please comment on the removal (twice) of the photo showing Lorenz as a member of the Nazi party? While I certainly appreciate your work concerning this article, I don't believe it is common practice here at Wikipedia not to comment on what one is doing. Also, I'd hate to see Lorenz presented as a harmless vet/uncle unable to do any harm. How many more images of Lorenz surrounded or followed by his geese do you have in store? <KF> 01:37, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have several other Lorenz followed by geese pics. As for the picture representing Lorenz as a Nazi, this is not correct (at least in relation to the pic). The pic is the cover of the German edition of his book "Behind the Mirror" and really does not portray Lorez as a Nazi in any way (if you feel that he was one).
McCann
PS check out the book biologists under Hitler. Lorenz was a medic in the German army, nothing more.
- Sorry, I don't get anything of what you are saying here. Could you please comment on the removal of the photo = book cover? <KF> 01:47, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Okay: You said you wanted to include the pic to show Lorenz as a Nazi. I removed the pic because it is in fact the cover of his book "Behind the Mirror", and thought an actual pic of Lorenz in "real life" action might be better suited for the page. I did all this not realizing your original intentions. When I learned what your intentions were, I removed the pic regardless because you intentions do not coincide with the pic, as the pic is simply a portrait of Lorenz, and in no way shows his allegiance with the Nazi party. Make sense???
- Sorry, no. Erm, what is it Lorenz is wearing in his buttonhole? <KF> 02:00, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ouch! Ya got me there; hadn't noticed that. I'm gonna try to justify it, but I feel I'm probably gonna fail... Lorenz was a Buddhist, and he wears the button in the meaning of "goodness". Or maybe he was afraid of his Nazi medical superior, so wore the button to appease him.
You believing any of this?
I didn't think you would.
Okay, put up the pic again, but put with it a caption with something along the lines of "Lorenz posing as Nazi party member; see pin". Your other caption did not express what you were trying to get across.
- We'll see about those images tomorrow. I'm just too tired now. Please don't remove content from the talk page; I think there are lots of people (not just me) who don't like that. <KF> 02:17, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Lorenz's Nobel Prize autobiography says that he was drafted; his Wikipedia page says that he had joined Wehrmacht. Is there a difference? Should the Wiki page be changed to reflect the linked autobiography, or is there evidence that Lorenz did indeed volunteer for the service? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zapiens (talk • contribs) 17:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC).
- There is no evidence whatsoever that he volunteered. He was certainly drafted. He tried to be assigned as a motorcycle mechanic, but instead they assigned him to be a medic. He spent a long time as a POW in Russia. 64.107.2.18 21:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lorenz's role in the Third Reich
While I am a great admirer of Mr. Lorenz and his work, I believe it is not justifiable to leave out his at least ambivalent role during the rule of the Nazis. Certain ideas of the Nazis regarding eugenics certainly appealed to him -- though it should also pointed out that eugenics appealed to a whole lot of people throughout the 20th century, including leading American intellectuals and politicians. The German page, unsurprisingly, devotes considerable space to this aspect [[1]]Dietwald 07:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
His plan for the genetic improvement of the human race, published in 1974 and derived from a Jewish joke, certainly shows at that stage of his life and career there was no trace of Nazism in Konrad Lorenz. Anyone who would derive a plan for human genetic improvement from a Jewish story (Lorenz himself says the story is of Jewish origin), and would put kindness above good looks, is certainly no National Socialist. Indeed, it is clear he was as far removed from Third Reich ideology as it is possible to be. 64.107.2.18 21:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, some of the attacks on Lorenz are based on blatant mistranslations. E.g., a word in one of his writings, for which the correct translation is "gender," was mistranslated as "race" just so as to slander Dr. Lorenz. Das Baz 21:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] This article is biased
This article is biased toward Lorenz and his apparent non-envolvement in the Nazi party during WWII. Please add information relevant to his entire life, not just his scientific ideas.
Also, this article does not cite its references sufficiently. Dates, as well as facts, need to be diligently documented. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SuperFluid (talk • contribs) 05:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC).
- Vic from the UK writes: Can I add a remark? It is not especially hard to find details of Lorenz's involvement with the Nazi party. Perhaps the Wikipedia entry (which is essentially correct) might fairly remark that public misgivings about his war time affiliations dogged Lorenz on and off for the rest of his career. I wouldn't rush to judge people living in another country and another time, but I might cite a letter from Hans Kruuk's much-praised biography of that other great founder of ethology, Niko Tinbergen ('Niko's Nature' pbl. OUP 2003). Tinbergen had been friends with Lorenz prior to the war, but was interred by the Nazis and was - inevitably - deeply mindful of the suffering inflicted by them on his native Holland. Writing to a US ornithologist in 1946, Tinbergen said: "He [Lorenz] was rather nazi-infected, though I always considered him a good fellow. But it is impossible for me to resume contact with him or his fellow countrymen... this is not a result of a desire for revenge, but we simply cannot bear to see them". Three years later the pair did meet again at a mutual acquaintance's house in London, when their friendship was (according to Kruuk) re-established in an emotional session that ended with Tinbergen saying to Lorenz "We have won!" (ie their friendship had overcome events). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.122.0.119 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC).
Konrad Lorenz’s work for the Nazis is extensively documented in Benedikt Föger and Klaus Taschwer. Die andere Seite des Spiegels : Konrad Lorenz und der Nationalsozialismus. (Vienna: Czernin, 2001) - and in Ute Deichmann, "Biologists Under Hitler" (Harvard University Press; Reprint edition (May 15, 1999). Robert Walser 23:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robert Walser (talk • contribs) 22:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC).
All of the evidence in Deichmann's book shows that this statement in the article has to be edited: "It seems highly likely that Lorenz's ideas about an inherited basis for behavior patterns were congenial to the Nazi authorities, but there is no evidence to suggest that his experimental work was either inspired or distorted by Nazi ideas." I will remove it and update the article soon. I removed my longer previous comment because I will use it for the article. Robert Walser 00:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Weasel words
In the article, I have tagged the phrase "Lorenz's writings about evolution are also now regarded as outdated" thus: "{{fact}} <!--- Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words#Examples --->" –Æ. ✉ 03:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
