Talk:Konkani language

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[edit] Citations

Please do reffer Wikipedia:Citing_sources

[edit] Script Fight

Script Warriors please stay out!!!!

We dont want people fighting over whiich script is native or which script should deserve the first place. Kannadigas and Marathis , please start a seperate web page to carry out your silly battles. Dont use Konkani as your playground Deepak D'Souza 12:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV Discussions

[edit] Role of Portugal and Portugese

There is a definite tone of POV to this article, particularly the sentences "the present lack of any pre-Portuguese Konkani literature points to the unmerciful destruction of the Konkani heritage. That the language itself survives the more than 400 years of alien subjugation attests to the resilience of nomadic Konkani people." The first statement needs a citation, or at least a demosntration that konkani literature existed prior to the portuguese arrival, which the portugues destroyed. Describing portuguese as "alien" is a little odd, as it is the liturgical language of a significant section of the population, just as sanskrit is (a language, incidentally, also brought by invaders). It's obvious that the writer here has an anti-portuguese bias.

So I am removing these sentences.

p97dav45

[edit] moved part of article

I've moved the Konkani language section from the Konkani article here. This follows the pattern often used by other languages/peoples.Martin.Budden 16:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English as language of Goan Catholics

What is the source of the contention that English is a widely spoken language among Goan Catholics? To my knowldge Goan Catholics do not speak English in any greater proportions than other Indian communities. Goan Catholics (in Goa at least) speak Konkani as a primary languae, with sections of the upper classes speaking Potuguese. In fact, even the epithet for Goan Christians, Makapao, comes from an alleged tendency to say "Deva, maka pav", which is an appeal to God in Konkani. The image of Goan Catholics speaking English as a first language is largely Bollywood derived. --Kunal ^(talk) 18:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

i am in complete agreement that there is no greater proportion of english speakers in goa, but is the article trying to say that there are more english medium schools than before and fewer portuguese ones?--964267sr 02:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it is probably beyond much doubt that English has overtaken Potuguese as the dominant foreign language in Goa, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that English has replaced the Konkani language among Goan Catholics, or any other demographic in Goa. --Kunal ^(talk) 09:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Konkani in Portuguese Goa

The following sentence seems not to follow from the rest of the section:

"The missionaries realized the importance of propagating in local tongues and translated Christian Literature into Konkani and sometimes Marathi, the most notable among them being Fr Thomas Stephens."

Ventifax 21:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The section is about the history of the Konkani language. The para mentions what changes took place in the Konkani world during the Portuguese rule. I feel It is relevant to mention the missionaries because

1) It led to the first printed work in Konkani(and supposedly the first printed work in India, I have to verify it)
2) The absence of Christian literature in Konkani may have led to a total delinking between culture and religion among Konkani Catholics.
3) It was in contravention of a ban imposed on Konkani by the Portuguese.

--Deepak D'Souza 04:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, but Fr Stephens's work was prior to the ban. This sentence was tacked on in such a way as to seem to contradict the paragraph two previous. Ventifax 00:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Your right! Silly of me not to have noticed the discrepancy. Thanks for the rework , Ventifax. --Deepak D'Souza 04:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konakani and Marathi.

Konkani is an dialect of Marathi.I dont why Konkani people are denying the fact? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mahawiki (talk • contribs).

While your comment seems a little inflammatory, as a native speaker, I am still moved to say Konkani is a difficult to place linguistically either an ancestor of Marathi, an offshoot of Marathi that is now a separate language or a cousin of Marathi.--964267sr 23:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the comment is inflammatory, and now it has also been included in the introductory paragraph (by Mahawiki). Mahawiki, do you have citations or sources for your claim? If yes, please refer to them in the article. Since there appears to be no concensus on the relationship between M and K, I have placed a neutral sentence in the Intro paragraph (basically a rewording og 964267sr's statement). If there is better information available, please cite and modify my change. But please discuss here. Regards, Gajamukhu 08:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

hello ... I have this up for submission. User:Alnico

// the text in this submission was deleted because of two reasons:
1. It is too long and winding, not to the pint
2. The article in itself could be copyrght material

User:Alnico should provide a link to the oringinal text and state his points from http://www.gsbkerala.com/gsbkerala.htm

regards User:Alnico

It would be an improvement if someone could get some textbooks out and tell us what the different views about Konkani's position in the family of languages is, who said what, what the evidence is as they present it, and let the reader decide which scholar is more sensible, rather than us putting the words in. Certainly it is in dispute, or seems to be. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Konkani and Marathi

Konkani is a dialect of Marathi.According to linguist Griarson,on the basis of peculirity of sounds, grammatical processes, vocablary,Konkani is a dialect of Marathi.(Source: Marathi Vishwakosh-Khand 12,(Pg.1197) Publisher:Maharashtra Rajya Vishwakosh Nirmiti Mandal,Mumbai.A project funded by Govt. Of India and Govt. of Maharashtra)

Konkani is recognised as a seperate language due to dirty politics played by Konkani (and few Kannadi)politicians .Denying Marathi-Konkani relation is like disowning ur own parent.Nevertheless this doesnt change the history.Konkani remains as sweet and lovable for us as it was before.

It seems the article perhaps has metions of 'my POV'.So I am not exactly unhappy with this article.mahawiki 05:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So POV is good as long as it is yours?Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is important to have info to explain how langauages are related to other languages - you should put this in from your book? and also explain why the other people think it is not without putting in POV like Karnataka politics in there. This is about an academic debate not a political classifcation. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

By my POV i mean what I belive is true.And its a fact that the feud between Marathi and Konkani has been created by kannada leaders. Mahawiki 12:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty irresponsible to say that Konkani is a dialect. Especially if one can clearly see that the two have differect grammar systems. Any similarity can easily be attributed to the fact that both are language evolved from Sanskrit. Just because one can understand one language because of knowledge of the other does not justify it a language to be considered to be a dialect. If such were the case Gujrati or Marathi could be considered a dialect of the other, the same goes for in Europe with Portuguese and Spanish. If gaining National Language status helps preserve this unique "dialect" as some would like to call it, so be it, it would at the very least ensure the continued use of it and would prevent speakers from "reverting" to the "mainstream". I would like to add another point, is the fact that Konkani people fleeing the persecution during the Goa Inquisitions chose to move to Southern Canara with a foreign language, instead of emigrating to Maharashtra, which would not have been the case if indeed the Konkani was just a dialect.

Easternspice 04:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

One has to just see Mahawiki's profile to know that he is just here to push his own political beliefs and lingusitic jingoism! Do we really need to discus his points when he has stated for himself that he is here just to push a pro-Marathi and pro-Maharashtra stance. Let me phrase his own line:" Maharashtra or Marathi cannot be defamed by wikipedia and just because some nonsense is written here"

As far as the simmilarity is concerned it depends on the dialect. A Marathi speaker may undestand Malvani or Goan saraswat Konkani somewhat easily, but will be at a loss when he/she tries to understand Chitrapur Saraswat Konkani. Malvani may sound very similar to Marathi because it's speakers have been bilingual for 300-400 years, thus enabling Marathi influences. Konkani speakers in Karnataka frequently borrow Tulu and Kannada words(even the accents are affected). Does that mean that Konkani is a dialect of Tulu or Kannada??

Will Marathis agree to call Marathi as a dialect of Hindi simply becasue a Hindi speaker can easily understand Marathi?

Another thing, this "Konkani is a dialect of Marathi" line has not come out of any love that Marathis have for Konkani. It is only used to delude themselves that Goa and Konkani speaking areas of Karnataka (such as Karwar ) are theirs by virtue of a vague resemblance in the languages.

The following link should end the debate:

http://www.rajbhasha.gov.in/8thschedulehin.pdf

Why bother what Marathis think about Konkani when the constituion of India itself recognises Konkani as a distinct lanuage??

Deepak D'Souza 04:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Came accross [interesting edit by the great MahaWiki]] himself!!! "Revision as of 05:35, 25 October 2006 Mahawiki

m (Konkani is a independent language.Its transliteration in either language is unacceptable.Article has mentions of Konkani being written in Nagari and Kannada script.)"

How come Mahawiki suddenly decided that Konkani was an Independent language??? Deepak D'Souza 08:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible inconsistency

If the third wave of influence dates to 1683-1740, does it predate the first wave? Poweroid 17:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Konkani and Kannada script

As this source which had been cited before some editors removed it shows, the Kannada script is used by Konkani speaking people in Karnataka. And the biggest population of Konkanis anywhere in the world is in Karnataka. Konkanis in Karnataka outnumber Konakanis in Goa 3 to 1. Also the Konkanis of Goa use both Roman and Nagari scripts while the Konkanis in Karnataka use only Kannada script. So I request the admins to unprotect the page or atleast put it back themselves. Gnanapiti 08:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Kannada script is not the main or official script of Konkani. nagari is used more extensively by Konkanis in Maharashtra and Goa.While Roman Malayalam and Naskh are also used.There's is no need to include each and every script.Nagari transliteration is enough.

Mahawiki 09:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Does Mahawiki know anything about Karnataka apart from Belgaum???Who gave hiom the right to speak on behalf of Konkanis?? It may not be Kannada script may not be the official script , but it is THE MOST WIDELY USED script in Konkani. Ask any Konkani from Canara coast!

Deepak D'Souza 04:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Maharashtra and Goa are not the only places where Konkani is spoken. There are more konkani speakers in Karnataka than in Goa, who use Kannada script for writing Konkani. Karnataka is also the only state, which has a Konkani sahitya academy to promote konkani literature. Most of the Konkani literature coming out of Karnataka is in Kannada script. All these facts are substantiated by the references added. Naveenbm 09:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If someone intends to do their original research and bag nobel by claiming "Kannada is not the main script for Konkani" withour proper citations, they are most encouraged to do so in the upcoming Konkani Sahitya conference and not here. "Karnataka Konkani Sahitya Academy"(only state which has an academy for Konkani literature) has adopted Kannada as the official script for Konkani in Karnataka where there are more number of Konkani speakers than Goa. This article in Konkani world precisely explains the issue.Gnanapiti 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Please understand that the External links column is meant to provide relevant sources for academic interest, not chat groups or personal home pages

I had removed many such links , keeping only those which I felt were necessary. But it seems that some users are already putting them back. I will not revert them to prevent an editing war, but I advice discretion on behalf of Konkani Wikipeians

Kindly read the Wikipedia rules before doing so.

Deepak D'Souza 10:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konkani Wikipedia

Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones

We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D'Souza 05:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs rewowrking

I appreciate the efforts made by User:MaximvsDecimvs but I feel it has gone off the point, simply to keep neutrality. It tends to give a wrong impression that a lot of people (implying even Konkanis) doubt Konkanis status as an independent language. Matter of Fact: only Marathis (that too not all) treat Konkani as a dialect of Marathi. At the most pessimistic, I will hazard a guess that not more than 10% of Konkanis agree.

Secondly with a lot of edits to the Konkani v/s Marathi Section , it seems to appear the the entire Konkani Language article is only about the Konkani v/s Marathi feud. Please shorten it to a single Paragraph of not more than 5-6 lines.

I propose to put a seperate article on "The History of Konkani Language " which will provide a detailed history and can have a very lengthy discussion on Konkani v/s Marathi. Lets keep the present article as it is now.Once the History article is in place ( I have completed it halfway and will put it up in a couple of days), keep only relevant facts in the main article on Konkani Language.--Deepak D'Souza 07:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. That Konkani is a dialect of Marathi is a crank theory and should be treated as such. It is a theory that finds no support from linguists. That said, we certainly should mention it, but spending more than 3-4 lines to explain it is definitely overkill. Sarvagnya 07:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the so-called theory is widely accepted in Maharashtra (amongst the Marathis and Konkanis) and many linguists have supported it. Morever try to understand the fact that Konkani is not sole property of Goa. I wonder Dnyaneshwari being in Konkani and other 'crank throries' shall also find place here! Maharashtraexpress 11:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

w.r.t Maharashtraexpress 1. Does the fact that the theory finds acceptance wide acceptance in Maharashtra (most of whome may never have heard a word of Konkani)weigh more than a long established belief among Konkanis?

2. Even if we assume that all Konkanis in Maharshtra treat Konkani as a dialect of Marathi(which I doubt!) do their number overrun the opinion of other Konkanis? Let me place the numbers as per the 1991 census: of the 17,60,607 Konkani speakers in India 6,02,626 are in Goa, 7,06,397 in Karnataka, 3,12,618 in Maharashtra and 64,008 in Kerala Now do the math.

2. How many linguists? Are you aware that the Sahitya Akademi had put the issue in front of a neutral panel in 1975 which accepted Konkani as an independent language.

3. Correct Konkani is not Goa's property. Konkani is nobody's property . We don't own Konkani. We belong to Konkani, aamchem maaimbhas!

4. Where is Dyaneshwari mentioned in this article?

--Deepak D'Souza 12:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Deepak,

Thank you for your comments. My purpose behind rewriting that section was that it had become a little too wayward, and wasn't being faithful to the source that it quoted. I realize that my changes might have become somewhat verbose in the process. However, my efforts were aimed at not losing sight of what the cited source says and to be neutral at the same time.

Of course, my edits are, in no way, ideal. Could you tell me which part of the section is off-track and gives a wrong impression that even Konkanis doubt the status of Konkani? If you give me your feedback, I can tell you why I wrote that particular sentence and we can work from there to make it better.

Coming to why this section looks bigger than the rest, the reason is simply that no one has added much information about Konkani grammar, vocabulary, phonology and other technical linguistic details. If info about these aspects of the language is added, it will make the article much more robust and readable, and perhaps then the Konkani-Marathi section won't look that bloated. That said, I am inclined to agree that if we have a separate article about the history of Konkani, we can leave the crux of the matter from the Konkani-Marathi section here and explain the finer details in the new article.

A final word. I think there's a lot of material out there that documents the relationship between these two languages. While reading this well-written source, I felt that it provided a wealth of information and further references regarding the history of the language and its journey to date. Although Konkani has now been certified by many linguistic scholars as an independent language and Konkanis are more aware about their language than in the past, there has been some notable and significant history between itself and Marathi. It would not do justice to the spirit of Wikipedia to dismiss or cut out this information due to personal prejudices.

Thanks, Max ^{- You were saying?} 14:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If u dont want to acknowledge those who dont think Konkani is a language so be it. FYI the Konkanis in Maharashtra report themselves as Maharashtrians (and language as Marathi). Since u r in Maharashtra,u will perhaps understand it sometime later. Anyways i shall not disturb u guys again. Hope u will give justice to this article. Maharashtraexpress 14:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Also, 3,12,618 is quite a sizeable number to deserve a mention,no? Maharashtraexpress 14:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the heading of that section at the first place. What does Konkani vs Marathi mean? Is there a war between two languages? A heading like "Konkani and Marathi controversy" or something like that would sound apt. Gnanapiti 16:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konkani name in Kannada script

I noticed this difference between ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ only yesterday, while reading a leaflet from a Konkani cassete. But it is true. Blame it on the fact that I had not studied Kannada. ATleast among Mangalorean Christians it is spellt as KomkNi not as kom-ka-Ni with a half ka and Na. The fist thing I did was phone my parents and ask them, they have confimed it. And for as long as i can remember , we always said KoMkni , not Konkani or KonkaNI

Another thing is that whle writing in Devanagiri a long "ii" is used (कोंकणी)while in Kannada script short "i" ("कोंक्णि" not कोंक्णी)is used.Perhaps some people may be aware that in Maharashtra the language is reffered to as ko-ka-nii, not koM-ka-Ni. I would like to know if other dialects in Karnataka such as GSB spell it differently

One of the many mysteries of Konkani. With such diverse styles ,scripts and dailects, even the name is spellt differently.I am looking for online resources to confirm it. --Deepak D'Souza 05:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep, got this: http://www.maibhas.com/ It is a Konkani language website entirely in Knannada script. --Deepak D'Souza 05:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Let us stay away from doing original research. Kannada wikipedia has the article in the name ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and not ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ. (http://kn.wikipedia.org/wiki/ಕೊಂಕಣಿ).

The spelling used in Media (Famous personalities, News Papers, TV News, Kannada portals etc) is ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and not ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ.

Some of the verifiable sources in Unicode encoding:

Thanks, - KNM ^Talk 05:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am surprised by your behaviour KMN!. You have asked for consensus.But twice you reverted the edits ,without discussing it first or seeking consensus. What is your idea of consensus?Something that only you find agreeable is consensus?

In Kannada articles ಕೊಂಕಣಿ is used whereas in Konkani (Kannada script) articles ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ is used.Even Marathis spell "Konkani "different from the way Konkanis spell it. The article should mention how the word "Konkani" is written in Konkani( Kannada script). Not how it is written in the Kannada language .

The source you have mentioned is a Kannada website, not a Konkani website.

Even in Romi lipi , used commonly in Goa the common representation used is "Konknni" not "Konkani"

In Kannada , the sound ಅಂ is spelt as "am" , without the nasal sound. Konkanis, while using Kannada use it to represent the nasal sound "ṃ"

Last of all, what I have put is not original research. As I have said in the spoken form "KonkNI" is used, not Konkani.

Now , be nice and please revert your revert.

--Deepak D'Souza 06:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It is Konkani, here in Mangalore at least.--PremKudva^Talk 03:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, most of your claims above are original research. Please provide verifiable and reliable references for your claims.

If you want non-Kannada websites, here it is: http://www.medialocate-usa.com/languages.html

As you can see clearly, it is mentioned as ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and not as ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ. Thanks. - KNM ^Talk 19:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding one more: http://www.omniglot.com/language/names.htm - KNM ^Talk 19:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Deepak, I agree that when we pronounce it(in Ktaka), it is always koMkNi and never as 'koMkaNi. But then, this is the case with thousands of words in Kannada or any language for that matter where there is a slight difference in the way its written and the way its said. In this case, I took a look at the site you gave(maibhaas.com) and if you observe carefully, he uses both spellings. Maibhaas, a Konkani site in Kannada script uses both spellings and several kannada sites write it as koMkaNi. So anyway you see it, the usage of koMkaNi far outnumbers koMkNi.

Having said that, I for one, do not mind representing both spellings in this article. What do the others say? Sarvagnya 20:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, please note that the way a word is pronounced is not the correct representation of that word in a particular script, but rather the way it is written should be adapted as the correct spelling. For example there are words like ಕಂಬಳಿ, ತಂಬುಳಿ in Kannada which when we talk morph into ಕಂಬ್ಳಿ and ತಂಬ್ಳಿ. That doesn't make the latter words correct. "Is not" or "am not" becomes "ain't" when we talk but that doesn't make "ain't" the correct way of writing. ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ is very much a contraction of the original ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and should not be promoted as correct. Gnanapiti 21:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to echo whatever Gnanapiti has stated above. A word might have different dialects, but in the written form usually it has only one spelling. Just as an example, Kannadigas never pronounce Bengaluru as ಬೆಂಗಳೂರು, and Mangalooru as ಮಂಗಳೂರು. Instead, they always use, ಬೆಂಗ್ಳೂರ್ and ಮಂಗ್ಳೂರ್ while talking. Don't you agree here? But does that allow to write the same in articles? Certainly not, as seen in Bangalore and Mangalore articles. To summarize, ಕೊಂಕಣಿ is the correct written form, which might have ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ as one of the spoken forms. Hope this helps. - KNM ^Talk 21:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

KNM and G, point taken. But the point is I never claimed that koMkNi=koMkaNi. Let me put it this way. There are three things here..

Most popularly used(MPU) spelling
MPU pronunciation
Correct pronunciation.

Now in the case of beMgaLooru,

MPU spelling = beMgaLooru
MPU pronunciation = beMgLoor
Correct pronunciation = beMgaLooru

In the case of koMkaNi, I was always under the impression(maybe rightly so), that

MPU spelling = koMkaNi
MPU pronunciation = koMkNi
Correct pronunciation = koMkaNi.

But, after seeing maibhas.com, where we have a native koMkNi speaker write it as 'koMkNi', I was put in two minds. Frankly, I am now a little confused about what the correct pronunciation is. However, Deepak should also remember one thing.

Even if 'koMkNi' is the "Correct Pronunciation" and also the "Correct 'spelling'", we will need reliable sources to establish that. Until now, maibhas.com is the only source that we have which spells it as 'koMkNi'. All other sites including Dr U R Ananthamurthy's blog which KNM pointed out, spell it as koMkaNi. So I am afraid that we will also have to simply go with koMkaNi and not koMkNi because even if you(Deepak) are right, Wikipedia is not about truth, it is about verifiability. Sarvagnya 22:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes maibhass.com uses both, but if you take a close look most used is komkni instead of komkani. Premkudva has voted in favour of Komkani and since he is a Konkani too ,I have to give weightage to opinion.

I will let the issue be but not without putting my points of dissent: 1. Portuguese write Konkani as Concanim. Should the fact that it was the portuguese who introduced the Roman script . So should Goans stop writing it as Konknni which is their version of Roman transiteration. 2. The casette cover which I had mentioned as the source of my doubt , is produced by Mandd Sobhann, a cultural organization founded by Shri. Eric Ozario who is also the present president of the Karnataka Konkani Sahitya Akademi.

Anyway, let things be. I am working on a more detailed version of this article and intend to put it up today evening --Deepak D'Souza 05:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reworked the article

Done a major rework of this article. Added a detailed history section. More details, links refs etc. --Deepak D'Souza 13:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

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