Talk:Komárno

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ow I see that "Révkomárom" is mentioned in the text, by the way. I would prefer, as a compromise that the explanation about it is moved up into the firs paragraph. I have removed the part on the two chieftains (that I have never heard of), one of which is supposed to have founded the castle (which according to the Academy of Sciences was constructed only in the 12th century). I will gladly readd it, if someone provides me with some sources, but I am afraid that this is just a fairy tale. Juro 06:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

== I have made a few spelling and word changes to make elegant/correct English. There is one sentence which needs to be rewritten. I don't understand it. It's this one: "During his reign Corvinus also established the royal Danube flotilla, which Komárno became its main base during the Turkish wars." Does it perhaps mean: "......which Komarno used as its main base during the Turkish wars." ? Hikitsurisan 22:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Name

I tried to clarify a bit more the distinction between Komárno and Komárom. Since this article is about Komárno, I think the last edit by Kelenbp (basically, he replaced the word "Komárno" by "Komárom/Komárno") makes little sense. Perhaps, it may indeed confuse the reader. The town has never been called "Komárom/Komárno". In the article, we do not use the town's Latin or German name, so I do not see any reason why we should create a neologism "Komárom/Komárno". I reverted this change. I would rather recommend to expand the Komárom stub into a full article, includind a section about history. Tankred 14:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Look, for me is using the name Komárno in a historical context is more confusing, as the usage of Komárom, which was the official name of the Northern part of the city throughout the centuries. The renaming of this Hungarian city by the Czechs in 1918 is since then disputed by the locals. The today Komárom in Hungary is just a suburb of the former city. Maybe this whole story is a little confusing for a foreign reader, but just think about Berlin, there existed two cities with the same name for a long time. In Hungarian Komárno is also called Northern-Komárom, as actually it is the northern part of the same city.

kelenbp 16:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Komárno is the northern part of a former city, which was administratively divided in 1918. Since then, it is an independent municipality called Komárno. In an encyclopedia, we should respect the actual status and use official names. This practice is also less confusing to a reader with little or no previous knowledge of the subject. But all historical names, including Hungarian, Latin, and German variants are included in the article and the history of the division is discussed there too. If you feel it is not discussed enough, feel free to expand the article. Anyway, there is much information still missing (for example the town's present economic situation, local politics, description of landmarks, etc.). Tankred 15:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

There are two different cases here:

1, the name in historical context i.e. before 1918

according to Danzig/Gdansk precedent and a lot of other examples on wikipedia and other encyclopedies it is recommended to use the name of the given period (Lutetia and not Paris in Roman times, Saigon and not Ho Chi Minh Town before 1975 etc). In the case of Komárno this name is Komárom although Slovak editors obviously don't accept this precedent and the question always causes an edit war.

2, As for the 20th century and present

official name is Komárno so this is what we should use. ALTHOUGH for a town with significant ethnic minority (or majority in this case) is quiet often that the name used by that part of the population is mentioned in brackets or with / sign. This is not a rule but a sign of generosity - again not customary in Slovak-Hungarian relationship... Zello 02:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Komárom-Révkomárom debate

revkomaron is a nonsense, city was never called so, today slovak city komarno is at all times in hugarian komárom and former town of the Kingdom of Hungary (named Komárom) is second nonsense, slovak name of city at all times is komárno, town komarno/komarom and some countries changed in centuries, (see talk in hu wiki) --Mt7 07:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Révkomárom is an alternative for Komárom, that quiet often used today in Hungarian because it enables a distinction between the south and the north bank. Of course the official Hungarian version for Komárno is Komárom. Zello 14:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


If I say revkomarom is violative and affront, than it is so, i come from region, lack of knowledge do not excuse. --Mt7 14:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Révkomárom was used by Pallas Encyclopedia in the 1880's as an alternative for Komárom. Deleting information from wiki is simple vandalism if you don' t prove that the information is factually wrong. What's more - it doesn't matter that you think Révkomárom insulting because the name is often used. That's the ONLY thing that matters in an encyclopedia. We don't shape here the world only describe phenomena. There are towns with names like Ho Shi Minh Town that obviously insulting but we should use them in wikipedia because they are facts. Révkomárom is an alternative name for Komárno - it is a fact even if you don't like. Zello 15:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, did I miss something Mt7 ? How can be a city-name-form insulting? I personally prefer Észak- and Dél-Komárom (North- and South-Komárom) as a distinction, similar to Berlin, however Révkomárom-Komárom distinction is more often used in Hungarian. On the official name shield of the Slovakian city of Komárno you can see: KOMÁRNO/KOMÁROM (the Hungarian name is on a smaller blue shield under the white Slovakian one, see similar pictures in the German wiki under de:Diskussion:Komárno_(Okres))
kelenbp 23:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
hogyha azt mondod, hogy a magyar nyelv = magyarorszagon beszelt magyar nyelv, akkor nyugodtan hasznald revkomaromot, ha azt mondod, csak egy komarom van, es az a magyarorszagi, nyugodtan hasznald revkomaromot, en mint szlovak azt mondom a trianon elerte a celjat. es a benes dekretumok is meg mindig ervenyesek. --Mt7 14:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

semmi ilyesmit nem mondok, félreérted a helyzetet. én nem JAVASLOM a Révkomárom név használatát, én tudomásul veszem h sokan használják, létezik, ezért feltüntetem a szócikkben a történetével együtt. egyáltalán nem ítélkezem ezügyben. Zello 22:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Look people, this is the English Wikipedia, so please translate your sentences.kelenbp 2:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

sorry, you are right! So:

"I haven't said anything like this, you misunderstood the situation. I don't PROPOSE the use of Révkomárom, I accept the fact that the name is used by a lot of people and it is obviously existing so I mentioned it in the article together with its history. I haven't made any judgement in the question." Zello 00:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

de az iteletet az ugyben az, hogy a komaromot es a revkomaromot egy szintre rakod, ha nem elsz a regioban es nem tudsz magyarul, akkor miert akarsz beledumalni? you verdict is komarom and revkomaromn are aqual, and that is not so, if you are speaking about this matter, you have to speak hungarian and know the region --Mt7 07:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I speak Hungarian, but there are some billions people out there, who doesn't speak a word and this is the English Wikipedia. To be honest, I still don't understand what you mean with your opinion. I actually agree, that to use Révkomárom in Hungarian is wrong, because we speak here about ONE city divided by a border. That's why I suggested, that that the usage of North-and South-Komárom (Észak-és Dél-Komárom) is much better, however in Hungary a lot of people use Révkomárom for the Northern part of the city.

--kelenbp 14:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't put it on the same level. The article clarly states that Komárno in Hungarian is Komárom, although there is an alternative version (Révkomárom). Észak- és Dél-Komárom are not used, and we shouldn't invent new names. Zello 19:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ja, és a wikin mindenki abba dumál bele amibe akar... Zello
The names Észak-Komárom and Dél-Komárom are well used. (see e.g. Google)
--kelenbp 07:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey People, I really do not see this is a great problem. The expression "Révkomárom" is often used in Hungary. Why shouldn't the article mention it? --KIDB 13:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If you think so please sign the poll below. Thank you! Zello 13:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Now I see that "Révkomárom" is mentioned in the text, by the way. I would prefer, as a compromise that the explanation about it is moved up into the firs paragraph. --KIDB 13:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that article heads should be as short as possible for practical reasons. Indeed I looked up examples for alternative names listed in the head but they were all ignored without reasoning. To put it simply: User Mt7 claims that Révkomárom is "abusive". If the community accept this highly dubious claim, we should delete if don't accept it we should kept, I think. Zello 13:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates - Editing User talk:Bottesini

I have a problem:

  • 1. Komarno have only one official hungarian name: Komárom see http://www.komarom.sk
  • 2. Problem is, now have a town in Hungary the same name, Komárom.
  • 3. Today hungarian Komarom was up to 1890 was it only a village Ujszony
  • 4. Since 1890 was it a suburban of Komarom
  • 5. Since 1918 divided in slovakian and hungarian part.
  • 6. Now use some newspaper in Hungary for Komarom in Slovakia Revkomarom.
  • 7. Hungarian newspaper in Slovakia and Hungarian in Slovakia use only(95-99%) Komarom.
  • 8. I friend for me, professor for Hungarian language in Bratislava: Komarom is the only hungarian name of city.
  • 9. Hungarian, german and all other wikipedias know only Komarom
  • 10. From Hungarian wikipedia: hu:Komárom (Szlovákia): Ez az elnevezés viszont ma sértő, mert azt sugalja, hogy a déli magyarországi rész az igazi Komárom. This name is today abusive, the name pretend, that hungarian, south Komarom is only genuine Komarom.
  • 11. I ask only to remove Revkomarom from header of article. --Mt7 07:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


The above was just posted on my talk page and here at the same time. This seems like a interesting argument, despite the apparent use of an online translator. I'll have to read all of the relevant discussion before I give my opinion. Not to mention I'm no expert on Slovakia. — ßottesiηi (talk) 18:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC
Ok, the discussion already here is a great starting place for a solution. I would say that all this information be included in an encyclopedia-style write up. It should be mentioned that Révkomárom is not an official name, but still include it and the history of its usage. There is a lot of great info that has been uncovered here that is not mentioned on the actual article. Just ask if clarification is necessary. — ßottesiηi (talk) 19:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree Zello 19:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, is it possible to write simple: Komárno (Hungarian: Komárom, German: Komorn)? Please, have a firm stand. --Mt7 09:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
That I don't accept.Zello 10:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I accept that. kelenbp 14:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Other articles on wikipedia list alternative names (including all names on minority languages) in brackets after the official one. The present version put Komárom on the first place and Révkomárom on the second so it is obvious that Komárom is the widely accepted Hungarian name, Révkomárom is only an alternative. What's more that name section clearly explains the situation. Zello 14:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

no no and no, please give me some examples, where have a town an unofficial and abusing name in header!! And all wikipedias do so, do you say, that people in hungarian wikipedia are not right with artikel about komarno? please do not editwar without arguments. --Mt7 15:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
and the article Names of European cities in different languages do not know Revkomarom too, please do not change it, and it is always better, to write new articles. --Mt7 15:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There is an example for two alternative minority language names at Fribourg. Of course you can say that they are not abusive but Révkomárom is not obviously insulting at all. I understand your point-of-view but this is not an openly insulting name and the people who use it certainly wouldn't like to insult anybody. Personal dislike is not enough reasin to delete a name that is commomly used. Zello 15:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

sorry Fribourg is not an argument. please give you statment at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. --Mt7 15:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

from hu:Vita:Komárom (Szlovákia) Komárnonak a magyar neve helyesen Komárom, minden komáromi így hívja, Bratislavát is magyarul Pozsonynak hívjuk, Košicét Kassának, semilyen toldalékszavakat nem használunk, nem az a lényeg mi a jó, vagy a jobb, a Révkomáromi kifejezés ahogy Ön is bizonyítja helytelen és rossz, az az észak komáromi Dunarakpart elnevezése rév=kikötő, itt kettős probléma van, nemcsakhogy a révkomáromi név helytelen, mégcsak nemis az egész városra vonatkozik, dupla ok a megszüntetésére, nem értem mért kell megkülönböztetni a két várost, ha már mindkettő neve Komárom, Pozsonyban már több mint tíz éve hivatalosan Komárno magyar verziója Komárom jogerős és hivatalosan használható a magyarlakta területeken, ha Komáromba érkezünk akár észak felöl akár dél felöl mindenütt magyarul a Komárom tábla fogad minket, magyarul minden esetben csak a Komárom elnevezést szabad használni, ha valamit pontosítani akarunk akkor észak(köz) Komárom, vagy dél(új) Komárom elnevezést kell használni.B.J. --Mt7 18:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is a Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration case because there wasn't too much mediation before that step. I'm not very familiar with dispute resolution process but as far as I know there is Wikipedia: Request for mediation and Wikipedia: Request for comment that seem to more appropriate. Zello 16:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia: Request for comment see to be better --Mt7 16:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I listed on Request for comment. Zello 16:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Holy cow, I certainly hope this wasn't listed at the arbitration committee. There are still a lot of mediation actions to take place before that step is taken. — ßottesiηi (talk) 18:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jókai

It is important to say, you witdraw the right of town to have a historical name and you give the old town a new "modern" name.--Mt7 17:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.hhrf.org/szabadujsag/szemle/isz0406.htm - see this, Jókai called Komárom Rév-Komárom. Do you think he intended to insult his hometown? Zello

"Az én szülővárosomnak, Rév-Komáromnak van egy szigete, mely csaknem olyan hosszú, mint maga a város, s szélességében is kétszer akkora, mint a Margitsziget. A közlekedési út ezen visz keresztül, a Duna város felőli oldalán dobogóhíddal (lábashíd), Újszőny felől hajóhíddal volt összekötve." (Jókai)

Rough translation:

„My hometown, Rév-Komárom, has an island, that is almost as long as the town itself, and its breadth is twice of the Margitsziget. There is a road cutting through it with a bridge on the side of the town and a ship-bridge to Új-Szőny.”

Jókai was one of the most prominent Hungarian writers in the 19th century. He was born in Komárom.

I have good news: Jokai's Komarom was not divided in two parts.

I have proved that the name is not modern and not insulting. Even agreeing that Komárom is better there is no reason to delete the alternative version used by Jókai and later on a lot of people. Zello 18:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

please do not edit an article with actual meditation. --Mt7 18:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

New facts have a place in the debate. Zello 18:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you have original book of Jokai? Not a modern translation?--Mt7 18:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the original text quoted in "Irodalmi Szemle" a scientific journal about Hungarian Literature as you see in the link. It is an absolutely reliable source. Zello 18:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say, it can be OK, but original print is better. --Mt7 18:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If I go to the National Library and say that I looked up and find it would you accept? I don't think so. At least this is a proof on internet. Zello 18:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In this article is 100 x Komárom and 1x Rév-Komárom, it all is very funny!!--Mt7 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In this case not the numbers matter but the fact that Jókai called the town Rév-Komárom (look - typical 19th century spelling!). It proves that the name is an old one not recently created. Zello 19:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I mentioned that fact in hungarian wikipedia some months ago http://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kom%C3%A1rom_%28Szlov%C3%A1kia%29&diff=next&oldid=365387, but that's change the situation not, Révkomárom ist today abusive, from townfolk not used and in the best case unofficial name of town, wikipedia do not use such names. --Mt7 06:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia USES unofficial names. Google has 56 000 hits for Révkomárom - totally absurd to delete such common alternative. Zello 14:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You did me not show an article of english wikipedia, where an unofficial name is in head of article, you said too Of course the official Hungarian version for Komárno is Komárom. What is your problem? Please accept wikipedia customs. And do not place an official name of city with one unofficial and possible abusive. If you have a problem, it is better to write new articles. --Mt7 15:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I have showed you Fribourg, but here is Jaffa with two Hebrew version, Venice, Hong Kong, Strasbourg, Zürich, Nice... Zello 15:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

And that's another thing: don't emphasise so much that Komárom is an official name. In no minutes a Slovak editor will say that there is only one offical name Komárno, every Hungarian name is unofficial and our whole debate will go to the rubbish. Zello 15:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

 : Sorry, I'm Slovak and I know local circumstances, hungarian name of town was long forbidden, but since 10 years Komárom is the only from slovak authorities and municipal authority affirmed official hungarian name of city, if you not have expertise and competence, do not talk to matter, and you examples of town are not in the right ballpark, is it for you not possible to go to town and ask, is it not possible to ask you friends? I do not have the best english, but I know this issue very well. And please do not editwar without competence and arguments. --Mt7 06:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

After I presented a lot of proof and arguments I'm interested only in other peoples opinion and finished debate with you. Zello 07:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

your are without arguments and without competence, but for editwar always ready. --Mt7 07:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I consider deleting commonly used name simple vandalism that I won't accept because it is bad for the quality of wikipedia. Zello 07:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Most of the Hungarian maps, like "Földrajzi Világatlasz", Cartographia, 2004 (ISBN 963 352 570 5 CM) use the name "Révkomárom" for Komárno, so this name not just informally used. However, the current version of the article is acceptable to me. - Peppe83 07:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poll

OK, is it possible to write simple: Komárno (Hungarian: Komárom, German: Komorn)? --Mt7 09:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

  • That I don't accept.Zello 10:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I accept that. kelenbp 14:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I accept my own question. --Mt7 16:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

*I don't accept; Révkomárom should be included as an unofficial, but widely used name. - Peppe83 12:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit War

A request for protection has been posted; however, I don't find that appropriate in this case. User:Mt7 and User:Zello, both of whom are already in violation of WP:3RR, seem to be the only two involved in edit-warring. There's no need to keep others from editing because of a dispute between two individuals. Note that I have this article watchlisted and if I see either of you revert once more, I will block. Please refrain from edit-warring. AmiDaniel (talk) 07:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks you for your help. --Mt7 08:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Feel free to contact me if you need my assistance with this or anything else. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
please help me and zelo, that way or another and we have peace --Mt7 08:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no way to reach community consensus if only two people edit an article and they strongly disagree. The article needs other peoples opinion. If you have time please read through the debate and express your opinion, and please do something to launch dispute resolution process. I asked request for comment but there was no answer, today I posted the request for protection because I'm looking for ways to draw attention to the problem. Zello 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I just stumbled upon this one. I think that there is no point in listing 2 Hungarian names as equivalent alternatives for the official Slovak name, especially when there is an official Hungarian name. Since the name "Révkomárom" is mentioned in the article body and its usage is clearly explained, I have no problem with the current version of the text. (I strongly disagree with the opinion that "Révkomárom" would suggest that the southern half of Komárom is the only genuine Komárom - this is something that should be changed in the hu: article as well - but that is beside the point: in the lead, "Komárom" is sufficient.) KissL 13:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The "current" version exists only some hours ago... If the name is deleted from the head - because that is the question, it was mentioned in the head since months - then User: Mt7 can easily say that he was right and delete it from the article because it is "abusive". Zello 13:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That claim is a typical example of someone bringing up a bad argument to support their own view (which is sometimes valid for quite different reasons). I prefer to stick to what the current disagreement is about: whether the lead should contain this alternative name. I think it is acceptable not to have it. If your feeling is right, and anyone tries to delete "Révkomárom" entirely from the article, that's going to be a different story. KissL 14:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then another problem: I mentioned the fact in the name section that Jókai used Révkomárom and the old 19th century spelling was Rév-Komárom. User: Mt7 deleted these data that I prefer to see again in the article. Do you agree to mention these deatils? Zello 14:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

no problem jokai is ok, my problem is only use of revkomarom in head of article --Mt7 14:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree to have these details. They are encyclopedic, relevant, and verifiable, so there is absolutely no reason to remove them. KissL 06:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, before edit follow conventions in wikipedia. I nowhere know an article, where we have information about alternative name in head of article.--Mt7 10:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You got 5 important international cities as examples. Zello 23:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I prefor now again to go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. I will not a editwar. --Mt7 06:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You deleted the compromise presented by Mathae - this is edit war. I only restored the head. Zello 06:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


Anybody read this? [1] Dr. Rétvári László (from the MTA Földrajztudományi Kutatóintézet) clearly says that Révkomárom is a wrong and unofficial name, but very widely used and accepted. So widely used that (in my opinion) it must be showed in the head of the article. - Peppe83 12:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you an example, where wrong and unofficial name is in the head of article? --Mt7 12:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Have you an example, where a so widely used and accepted name isn't in the head of article? :)

Also, I have an alternate proposal: use the name "Öregkomárom" as an other distinctive but non-abusive name in the header, and Révkomárom mentioned just in an other paragraph. Otherwise, I don't think that this dispute is a very important, so I withdraw my vote. Have a nice day! - Peppe83 13:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why to use some another name? This discussion is a super humbug!!!!--Mt7 13:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Because the Komárom in Slovakia and Komárom in Hungary somehow should be distinguished, since they are two different cities, thanks to trianon. - Peppe83 13:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Distinguish, but why at disadvantage of genuine, original, bigger city, was trianon not a correct adjugment, if i see this behaviour? --Mt7 13:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

communist prohibited komarom, now free hungarian don't accept it, sad event --Mt7 13:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You got 5 important international cities as examples.

You arguments are misplaced

Fribourg (French; German: Freiburg or Freiburg im Üechtland, often Fribourg) is a city in the country of Switzerland and the capital of the Swiss Canton of Fribourg on the river Saane/Sarine.

two similiar variants

Jaffa (Hebrew יָפוֹ, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Yāp̄ô; Arabic يَافَا Yāfā (help·info); also Japho, Joppa; also, ~1350 B.C.E. Amarna Letters, Yapu), is an ancient port city located in Israel on the Mediterranean Sea.

Two names in two Hebrew languages, in Arabic two similiar variants

Venice (Italian: Venezia, Venetian: Venexia) 45°26′N 12°19′E, the "city of canals", is the capital of the region of Veneto and of the province of Venice in Italy.

Two names in two languages

Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Chinese: 中華人民共和國香港特別行政區 [pronunciation]) is one of the two special administrative regions (SARs) of the People's Republic of China (PRC), the other being Macau. It is commonly known as Hong Kong (Chinese: 香港, pronounced "Xiānggǎng" in Mandarin, "Heunggong" in Cantonese), which is often written Hongkong in older English-language texts.

Two names in two languages

Strasbourg (French: Strasbourg, pronounced /stʀazbuʀ/; Alsatian: Strossburi; German: Straßburg) is the capital and principal city of the Alsace région of northeastern France, with approximately 650,000 inhabitants in the metropolitan area in 1999.

Two names in two languages

Zürich (help·info) (German pronunciation IPA: [ˈtsyːrɪç], in Zürich German: [ˈtsyri], sometimes written as Züri; in English often Zurich, without the umlaut) is the largest city in Switzerland (population: 366,145 in 2004; population of urban area: 1,091,732) and capital of the canton of Zürich.

Two names in two languages

Nice (pronounced [nis]) (Occitan: Niça or Nissa; Italian: Nizza) is a city in southern France located on the Mediterranean coast, between Marseille and Genoa, with 933,080 inhabitants in the metropolitan area at the 1999 census.

two similiar variants --Mt7 12:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

All the examples show commonly used alternative names (pl. different dialects of the same language as Strassbourg and Jaffa) in the head. Freiburg and Freiburg im Üchtland is two similar variants in the same language. This later case is exactly the same as Komárom-Révkomárom. Zello 05:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

ha ezt mondanad nalunk, akkor mar regen lekerre kuldtek volna --Mt7 07:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation for the English reader: "Saying so you would have been already sent to Lekér in our country". Lekér is the biggest mental hospital in Slovakia - so this is a personal attack... Zello 19:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are you not able accept this? Nobody agreed that the name is "abusive" although at least 4 people had comments about the debate. Mathae and Peppe83 even openly opposed the deletion. I don't understand why you don't do anything here except this edit war. Write new articles or improve existing ones. You clearly have a very narrow agenda on English wiki - deleting Révkomárom... Zello 06:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

people are agreed, and one user had give a link from outside, say Révkomárom is a wrong and unofficial name, we have a vote 2:1 against you --Mt7 07:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Where anybody agreed that Révkomárom is "abusive"? The editor who presented the link clearly stated that he wants to see the name in the head because it is "widely used". I'll restore Mathae's version because it is COMPROMISE - it states that the name is unofficial. Zello 19:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

sorry you have respect votes, he wants to see the name in the head because it is "widely used". but he withdraw his wote, and his link say - if you watchful read (see analogy to Szlovák-alföld) I hope you understand hungarian - author from mta/Hungarian Academy of Sciences revkomarom is abusive, improper, misuse, and that is about 90 % truth, but you 5 important international cities as examples is complett falsehood, you compare apples and oranges, and I hope, today is that untrue repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth, no matter how preposterous. and revkomarom is abusive - in hungarian wikipedia is it so since 5 month - and hungarian wikipedia is rather touchstone, than english in this matter --Mt7 21:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Zello, I read you are the only Hungarian editor here who has learned History in higher education, very hard to believe --Mt7 22:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a summary of comments in alphabetical order. Obviously nobody agreed that the name is abusive although 3 people think that it is not so important that we should mention it in the head. 3 people think otherwise. KIDB proposed another kind of compromise. Zello 06:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

All disputs habe to go to end, for me was important to show, that we have several points of view, and you view is far to be neutral. Rétvári write: Ezekben kifejezésre jut az elkülönülés, de az együvé tartozás is. I ask you, what is more important elkülönülés (disparity) or együvé tartozás (coherence). And new editors would ask new question. Please adapt name section too. --Mt7 06:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything that I have to change in the name section. Kissl wrote that it will be a new case if you try to delete data from the name section. So I wait for the community when will effectively stop the article from further deterioration... Zello 07:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have been asked to drop a line here, so, if it is not too late: I have no time to read through the whole history of this "dispute", but for me, the current version is perfectly OK. It is quite obvious that is necessary - for the needs of potential readers - to clearly distinguish somehow between the official/correct name version and the informal name version. And I do not really care much about how this is done. Juro 03:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC Commentary

  • The above discussion is messy enough that I can't see where to put this comment. I got here from RfC. In this diff [2] User:Zello states that "Révkomárom" was used in an encyclopedia in the 1880s. Since this is the case, there should be and is a redirect from that word to this article. Best practice is to include all reasonable redirect subjects in the first sentence of the article, so that a reader will understand why they ended up here. Accordingly, "Révkomárom" ought to be in the header sentence, though it might be noted as "formerly", "including the former Révkomárom", or whatever else makes sense based on the verifiable facts. If there are reliable sources stating that the term is now considered "violative and affrontive" then they should be used to add appropriate text to the article. But the term should not be removed if it was used historically. GRBerry 02:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

All the comments from the dispute (exact quotations, parts of comments above):

  • "Sorry, did I miss something Mt7 ? How can be a city-name-form insulting? I personally prefer Észak- and Dél-Komárom (North- and South-Komárom) as a distinction, similar to Berlin, however Révkomárom-Komárom distinction is more often used in Hungarian." User: Kelenbp + vote for deletion
  • "Hey People, I really do not see this is a great problem. The expression "Révkomárom" is often used in Hungary. Why shouldn't the article mention it? Now I see that "Révkomárom" is mentioned in the text, by the way. I would prefer, as a compromise that the explanation about it is moved up into the first paragraph." User: KIDB
  • "There is no point in listing 2 Hungarian names as equivalent alternatives for the official Slovak name, especially when there is an official Hungarian name. Since the name "Révkomárom" is mentioned in the article body and its usage is clearly explained, I have no problem with the current version of the text. (I strongly disagree with the opinion that "Révkomárom" would suggest that the southern half of Komárom is the only genuine Komárom - this is something that should be changed in the hu: article as well - but that is beside the point: in the lead, "Komárom" is sufficient.)" User: Kissl
  • "Mt7 - accept it even if it is "abusive". Hungarians in Hungary use this name so it should be mentioned in the head. Later on everything is explained." User: Mathae (translted)
  • "Dr. Rétvári László (from the MTA Földrajztudományi

Kutatóintézet) clearly says that Révkomárom is a wrong and unofficial name, but very widely used and accepted. So widely used that (in my opinion) it must be showed in the head of the article." User: Peppe83

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