Talk:Koh-i-Noor

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This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details. The citation is in: "Indien: England skal aflevere Koh-i-Noor-diamant", Jyllands-Posten, December 30, 2006.

Contents 1 True heirs 2 Origins 3 Fixed Persian spelling 4 105 carats 5 Dr. Who reference 6 Queen of England 7 NZ herald article 8 Pencils

[edit] True heirs

The rightful heirs of the Kohinoor diamond are the people of Andhra Pradesh, a province/state in south India. The diamond was found on the Krishna river bank in Guntur district. It became part of the treasury of Kakatiya empire. Subsequent to the deafeat of king Pratapa Rudra Tughlaq's army plundered Warangal and the diamond was taken to Delhi. It changed hands with changes in the fortumes of many a king and many an empire. The object should belong to the place where it was originally found i.e., the state of Andhra Pradesh.

It seems to me that to suggest that the stone ‘belonged to India’, and is unlawfully or wrongfully in the possession of the British Government is at best debatable. Granted the East India Company did take the stone as a prize in war – of course so did Ranjit Sing Maharajah of Lahore (‘king of the Sikhs’, ‘Lion of the Punjab’) Ranjit Sing took it as a spoil of war from the Emir of Afghanistan, so perhaps Afghanistan too has a claim to the diamond? The Emir in turn seems to have got the stone from the Shah of Persia – so does Iran have a claim? To further complicate the issue the dominions of the Sikh Raj (whose claim to ownership of the diamond, I must assume has somehow been transferred to that of the modern Republic of India by the author of this article) fall ambiguously between both India and Pakistan – so perhaps the Islamic Republic too has a legitimate claim? It seems to me that the British Government should keep the Koh-i-Noor, well at least until they loose it as a spoil of war, as the tradition goes. But I could be wrong….

The Koh-i-Noor was made in INDIA! YOU MORON UP ABOVE. It was mined in India and was owned by Indian rajahs, sultans and Mughal emperors until Nadir Shah stole it as part of his plunder. It remained in Iran for a few years, then went to Afghanistan and was taken by Punjabi ruler Ranjit Singh. The British stole it unlegitamately from his son by raising him in England and forcing him to give it to the Queen. The diamond was made in India and spent the majority of it's history in the area now compromising the Republic of India. Pakistan has little claim and Iran and Afghanistan have no claims whatsoever. They had little to do with the diamond other than stealing it from India. Just because a diamond is won by spoil of war does not make it belong to that country. If someone conquered the UK and stole the crown of the royal family and it remained in their country for sometime, would not the royal family of the UK want it back and wouldnt there be a huge fuss. There would be. The same should be applied to India. The Koh-I-Noor is a key part of India's cultural past and has been a part of India's history since it's discovery and for most of it's history. I rest my case.

What claim does Iran have? They just had it for a few years and for the same reasons the UK has it, because it was stolen. Iran has plenty of diamonds of its own without laching on to diamonds of other countries that they obtained for a few measly years by war and plunder.

I thought I would, for the sake of argument, continue the debate over the ownership of the Koh-i-noor. And if the author of the rebuttal who called me a moron wants to reopen his or her case, I would be delighted. You argue – with much justification I concede – that the diamond was firstly found in India, and was located there for much of its post-discovery existence. However ‘India’ as a concept in this context is rather problematical, as I mentioned above Pakistan is as much a part of the geographical conceptualisation of India, as the Republic of India is. Moreover India as a concept is really rather modern – being widely accepted only during the 18th and 19th century. Prior to this South Asia was a collection of several different polities, Marattas, Sikhs, Bengalis, etc – none of whom identified as Indians. India, as a single unified political entity really only came through the British conquest. Hence the diamond could not have been stolen from India as you claim, because India did not yet exist. Your argument for the Koh-i-noor having been traditionally Indian is therefore an anachronism. It is really also just a furthering of a western imperialist cultural and geographical ideas. Your argument too for the geographical origin of the diamond being Indian as the rational for returning it to India too is problematic. For centuries objects have been moved from country to country, such is the reality of history. To return every cultural artefact to its country of origin is so ridiculous to be farcical. Would you have the lamp that hangs over the tombs of Shah Jehan and Mumtaz Mahal in the Taj Mahal retuned to Egypt, where it was made? I doubt it. When it comes down to it, your argument seems to be based on some sort of perceived cultural or racial conviction that the diamond belongs to India. I think to counter the past evils of British imperialism with racism in the present is rather counter productive.

I agree with the "moron" as you call him above and would like to add the following opinion. India is a new and failing nation. After gaining independence from Britain we swiftly lost half our country (what was to become Pakistan) and most of the population now lives in poverty. It seems that our claims are an attempt to catch hold of a national identity that really isn't ours, but was lost along with Pakistan. I am Indian and living in England and think it is absolutely rediculuos that the Indian government expects the queen of Britian to tear a diamond (that now bears no resemblence to the original Koh-i-noor) out of her crown and simply hand it back to India. What would they do with it? Put it in a museum? Give it to the president? Hide it away? What use would it be to the people to know that the government has managed to get a pretty diamond back from another country but has made no progress to combat poverty. If you want to give back things that Britian stole, what about Thugee? or burning widows with their husbands?

If the British have any self respect (which i doubt they do) they would return the diamond to India or pay up $13 Billion to India and keep the diamond legitimately. As far as the comment about being a failed state from the Indian in Britain... looks like all the discrimination you face in the UK has made you think that its your duty to diss your own countrymen and suck up to the Brits. Shame on you.21:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)65.92.157.195 mita

Come on guys, its a stupid diamond. Lots of stuff were stolen from what is now India and Pakistan. The Darya-i-Noor is a precious Indian/Pakistani jewel that is now part of the Iranian crown jewels. We Pakistanis and Indians alike arent clamoring our good diplomatic friend Iran for that? Why should we clamor for this? We have more important problems. I mean, really. Afghan Historian 00:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

In Hyderabad they claim the Koh-i-Noor was mined there, in the Golconda mines.

Several articles on the Internet seem to agree with that: 'Up until the 18th century, India’s Golconda mines were the only location in the world where the gems were mined' (http://nc.essortment.com/kohinoordiamond_rlps.htm)

It's possible, but tenuous I'd say. Naturenet | Talk 28 June 2005 11:25 (UTC)

Actually in india it's regarded that the Kakatiya dynasty was the one to unearth the kohinoor but no sooner was it unearthed by the last king of this dynasty than he was killed in a battle a few years later. and it was carried to new delhi. the very site golconda was known for its diamond mining until it stopped giving any more diamonds. Idleguy 07:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The diamond was not mined. A villager found it on the bank of river Krishna in Kollur village of [ [Guntur]] district of Andhra Pradesh. The diamond was given to Pratapa Rudra the Kakatiya king ruling Warangal. He was defeated by the army of Tughlaq in 1323 A.D and the diamond was taken away to Delhi along with enormous amount of the booty.

[edit] Fixed Persian spelling

Dieresis 09:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC) I changed كوحِ to کوہ .کوۂ is the word for mountain. I don't know if the use of ہمزہ for اضافت on the letter ہ is standard in Persian, but it is in Urdu, which is more germane to the Indian context.

Dieresis 09:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC) My understanding of how to indicate اضافت for this case was incorrect. Because ہ functions here as a consonant, the correct way to write it would be كوہِ نور, but the اضافت is usually not written for this and many other common phrases and compounds. So just كوہ نور is left.

[edit] 105 carats

I changed the number of carats based on the 1992 re-appraisal as give in this site. http://famousdiamonds.tripod.com/koh-i-noordiamond.html

hdstubbs

[edit] Dr. Who reference

I saw that Dr. Who episode and looked up the Koh-i-noor on wikipedia - and was surprised to see a reference back to Dr. Who in the article. Is everything that happens in Dr. Who worthy of mention in an encyclopedia? Or is this the TV trivia edition? If no-one objects I will remove this. Birkett 22:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I object, think about it for second... the very reason you are here is because of Dr Who, surely that indicates to you the relevance of it. Mathmo ^Talk 03:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Mathmo here - the only reason this article is on my watchlist is because of that reference. -- Chuq 03:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

How did you not notice it had been gone for ages then? Hand hint, maybe time to prune down your watchlist! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Mathmo ^Talk 04:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen of England

Is that a direct quote from the Treaty of Lahore that uses the term "Queen of England"? I know that this term was very frequently used in diplomatic dispatches and such, but I'd have thought that a formal treaty would have used the more formal "Queen of the United Kingdom" or "Her Britannic Majesty" or some such. john k 12:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is a direct quote. Ref[1] Naturenet | Talk 16:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I found this unusual as well but discovered it is authentic. See "Terms granted to, and accepted by, Maharajah Dulleep Sing - 1849," A Collection of Treaties, Engagements, and Sanads Relating to India and Neighbouring Countries, ed. C.U. Aitchison. Vol. 9. (Calcutta: Office of the Superintendant of Government Printing, 1892), p. 49. Accessible via Google Books.

[edit] NZ herald article

A long article about it was in the NZ herald today, makes for quite a good read. [2] Mathmo ^Talk 03:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pencils

In 1890, the Austrian L. & C. Hardtmuth Company named its brand of pencils after the diamond, see here. I don't know where this may be linked to from this article, but it's interesting trivia nevertheless.—Kncyu38 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how, but I think there should be a "also see" section with a link to the List of famous diamonds