User:Kober/Archive2

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Contents 1 Map 2 აჭარა 3 DYK 4 Khaikhosro Cholokhashvili 5 Re 6 WikiProject Georgia? 7 Greetings 8 Georgian-Abkhaz conflict 9 Machakhel(i) 10 Toumanoff 11 New Mainpage Voting on Georgian Wiki 12 Hey Kober 13 ქაქუცა 14 Democratic Republic of Armenia 15 An issue about Georgia 15.1 flag 16 History of Abkhazia 17 Georgia (country) 18 Draft 19 Image:Jorge de Bagration.jpg 20 Gamsakhurdia Article 21 News 22 Abkhaz government 23 ქართული ვიკიდან 24 Sxva xalxi 25 Please 26 Kober 27 Nakhichevan 28 Atlas of Conflicts

[edit] Map

Hi Kober! I've created this map of historical Georgian provinces for the Finnish Wikipedia, based on several fairly dubious Internet sources. I'm hardly an expert in this, so maybe you could spare some time to take a quick look at it, and tell me if something is terribly wrong, missing, etc. The borders are probably really ambiguous, and I'm not at all sure about the areas outside present Georgia. Olli 15:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Olli. The term 'historical province' in itself is rather vague, I guess. However, South Ossetia never was a historical province, but it formed part of Shida Kartli. It gained a status of a separate administrative entity only after the sovietization of Georgia. Also, southeastern corner of Abkhasia was historically part of Samegrelo. One may also argue that the lands southeast of Tbilisi was historically dominated by the various Georgian polities, though they are now part of the Lorri region of Armenia. This however may spark controversies as these territories were actually bicultural Armeno-Georgian borderlands. Otherwise, the map is fairly accurate. Hope I've been helpful. If you have further questions, just drop me a line. Cheers, --Kober 21:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I guess the map is mainly supposed to give the reader a general idea of the provinces' location, so if none of the names are really out of place, I'm pretty happy. But if I can I'll try to correct the things you mentioned or perhaps put a disclaimer to the text (I'm afraid I'll just mess up the picture). I'm not too concerned about controversies in the Finnish wiki surrounding this issue, since hardly anyone really has deep connections to it :) Olli 07:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, cool! Thanks to you too for taking interest in Georgia.--Kober 08:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] აჭარა

• Gamarjoba. Eg, vitom qartveli kaci martlac bodavs. Turkul vikipediashic. gagimarjos. gesalmebi turketidan. --SidE 15:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Gagimarjos, megobaro. rogor xar? me ar gavushveb magas rom acharis statia daamaxinjos. Talk:Adjara-zec gipasuxe. kargia rom shemexmiane, zalian gamixarda. droebit, --Kober 15:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ai naxe Abazinebi (Abazins), saidan casulan chridilo kavkaziashi. Apxazebi ar chamusulan da casulan abazinebi. ras itkvi!... kargad.--SidE 17:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

ar vici es uazroba saidan moakvt, magram ratomgac sxva ckaroebic amas amboben, rasac gadavxede. zalian ucnauria...--Kober 04:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Zhiuli Shartava, kartul asoebit rogor icereba? kargad!..--SidE 19:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Gamarjoba, SidE. ჟიული შარტავა = Zhiuli Shartava. tu moaxerxeb, ikneb es sheamocmo [1] - macahelma daamata adjaris statias. ra ceria ak, da saertod sandoa tu ara es saiti? naxvamdis,--Kober 20:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Gmadlob. yenisafaki islamisturi gazetia. ar aris sando ckaro. macahelic isetia. axla aris turkul vikishi oroli statia acharisa da machaxlisa: Acara da Acaristan. Macaheli da Macahel. informacia, sul sxva aris am statiebshi da macaheli mxolod am statiebshi aris chartuli. adre iko mxolod Acara da Macaheli. Da mere dacera meore statiebi. akac mimdinareobs brdzola, ertxel Acaris statiashi macahelma sheitana turketis droshac. tu upro meti informacia ginda, elpostze mogcer. --SidE 15:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Gmadlob, megobaro. zalian mixaria rom mxars gvicher. --Kober 13:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Gaixare.--SidE 17:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Dzalian gamomadga eg surati, adjarul xalxuri cekvis surati. Momxmareblis gverdshi shevitane, inglisurshic da turkulshic. naxvamdis... --SidE 15:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Dzalian kargia. kidev makvs ramdenime da male imatac davamateb. kargad,--Kober 15:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Gagimarjos!..--SidE 17:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

On June 20, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article David III of Tao, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

— BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-20 02:37

[edit] Khaikhosro Cholokhashvili

batono kober, i really need photos (as much as possible) or pictures of great georgian k. cholokashvi. If you have some, please let me know. Thanks in advance. Great job on Bagrationi, bravo Kober. All the best. p.s Can you please add georgian version of the names on Guram Gabiskiria and Zhiuli Shartava pages. How are things with Portal Georgia? Noxchi Borz 13:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Gamarjoba Noxchi. These are the two photos of Cholokashvili I have at this moment. I'll try my best to get more. I'm happy that you liked the Bagrationi article. You're welcome to visit Portal:Georgia and to leave a message on its talk page. Cheers, --Kober 14:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Kakutsa Cholokashvili (right) and Gen. Giorgi Kvinitadze (left)

President Mikheil Saakashvili and Parliament chairperson Nino Burjanadze attend Cholokashvili's reburial ceremony, November 20 2005

Kober, watch out for this pro-separatist POV pusher user:PANONIAN see his user page and you will understand. Noxchi Borz 18:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. A full spectrum of separatist entities, excluding Kosovo:)--Kober 18:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Hey Kober, thanks for the information, very interesting. I guess the current version of the article is fine. I like the pictures! —Khoikhoi 20:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Georgia?

Have you ever considered starting a WikiProject Georgia? I'd be interested in helping you organize it. Also, might I entice you to join WikiProject Armenia? I think that it would be nice to diversify our membership a bit and include some non-Armenian members. If you do, be sure to place your Wikipedia username under the participation list and next to it the flag from the country that you live in. -- Clevelander 20:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings

Hi there Kober. I was wondering if you have any additional information that you can add to the page of Assyrians in Georgia. Do you live close to this so called "Assyrian village" of Dzveli Kanda (Mtskheta District)? If so, is there anyway you can take some pictures of that community? :) Chaldean 14:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Chaldean. I’ve actually got some materials about the 13 Assyrian monks who preached in the 6th-century Georgia and I’ll create separate articles about each of them as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I live far from the Assyrian village and have not had a chance to travel there. I know this is a very interesting village with an ancient archaeological site in the neighborhood. Regards,--Kober 19:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info :) Chaldean 14:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Georgian-Abkhaz conflict

Dear Kober, please review the changes on Georgian-Abkhaz conflict and add the Georgian side profile after Abkhaz. The section "Profile of the parties The Abkhaz side" has tons of POVs. The Georgian claims are not represented, therefore NPOV not represented properly. Soviet constitution did not say anything about self determination of autonomies. Let me know. Thanks. Noxchi Borz 18:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes Noxchi. You’re right. The article needs serious rewrite. Unfortunately, I’m very busy in real life right now, but I’ll monitor this article for changes and revise it as soon as I find time, but I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to improve the article without your help.:) Thanks, --Kober 19:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Machakhel(i)

Thanks Kober, I think I've heard something like that before, that whole region is very interesting indeed. I've added two of the images to my gallery. :) Thanks again. —Khoikhoi 01:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toumanoff

Hello Kober, do you actually have hard copies of his work or access to any online copies?--Eupator 20:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Eupator. Unfortunately, I've got only a Georgian translation and a few works in English which cite him. His only work available online is the Bagratid article in pdf format in Encyclopedia Iranica.--Kober 03:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Mainpage Voting on Georgian Wiki

Hi Kober, can you please take a look at the voting site for the proposed new mainpage options on Georgian wikipedia here: ka:ვიკიპედია:მთავარი გვერდის ვარიანტები. We desperately need more votes to move forward. Would be cool if you could convince a few more experienced wikipedians as well. Will appreciate. Alsandro 00:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much for your vote, Kober. - Alsandro 13:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey Kober

Hey Kober, I know that I'm a few days off, but anyway, I wanted to thank you for joining WikiProject Armenia. Thanks for the suggestion on an Armenian portal, I will certainly take that into consideration. Cheers, Clevelander 21:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ქაქუცა

გაუმარჯოს კობერ, I don't actually have the picture, but I can try to get the picture if you want. I will ask my friends and relatives if they do. You now how small is Georgia. Everyody knows each other:).Sosomk 14:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, cool. It will be really great if you try to get it. Thanks in advance. --Kober 17:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

My GOOOOD, Brazil out, Germany out. Italy has a great team :) how do you like the world cup Kober? Ldingley 21:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Italy has a great team and Del Piero is the man. I am going up to support them in the final match, but I'm still a bit sorry for England :( --Kober 04:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Well my team Brazil is out so my world cup was over :) Ldingley 13:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It was really a pity. Btw most Georgians also supported Brazil :)--Kober 19:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Democratic Republic of Armenia

on Democratic Republic of Armenia "Georgian-Armenian War For more details on this topic, see Georgian-Armenian War 1918. Armenian uprising in Lori was the beginning of the conflict. Armenian locals with the help of Armenian militia took the form of a popular militia war. Drastamat Kanayan was the leader of this campaign which initially gained significant achievements. Approaching second week of the campaign, their advances slowed down as Georgian forces began to block the roads and railrods to stop the control and dissemination of the Armenian militia. Armenian historians claim that Georgian control of sea,road and rail routes essential for supplies and reinforcements. Georgia also received, eventhough Armenian forces fight very bravely their losts become significant. Armenian historians also claim that the Georgian forces had direct and indirect support from Ottoman Empire and Azeri forces, such that in disputed regions Georgia was not rejecting the Enver Pashas conquests (see:Army of Islam), hoping that Armenian will be slauther by Ottomans. Armenian historians also claim that Gergian forces were hoped for demographic transformation of Lori and Akhalkalak."

Who wrote this crap???? Idiotic BS. Ldingley 21:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh, thanks for letting me know. I've not seen it before. Typical nationalist prop! --Kober 05:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An issue about Georgia

I would like to ask for your attention, because there is a big deal going on on Georgia's talk's page. The argument is to make the Georgia search criterion to result in a redirect to the Georgia (country) page as you know. I would like you to participate in voting, if you find tme for it.Sosomk 08:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] flag

You have a point Kober. I did not adressed it straight towards you or Alsandro. I am sure you will do a great job on Abkhazia article. Regards Sosomk 08:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Take it easy, man. I think the pic by Luis should be placed just at the Enguri bridge. :) magrad, --Kober 08:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Abkhazia

Yes the Abasgin and Apsil kingdoms are very confusing but not to be mistaken for Apsua separatist claims. Even Andersen had many problems with it. Here is part of his text about History of Abkhazia:

Most historians of the Caucasus as well as anthropologists, archeologists and linguists tend to agree that the ancestors of modern Georgians inhabited southern Caucasus and northern Asia Minor since neolith. Experts usually refer to them as Proto-Kartvelian tribes (from the word Kartveli which is the Georgians’ own name for themselves) whose origins are quite unclear. Some of European historians of the 19th century (eg, Humboldt, Krettschmer) came to the conclusion that Proto-Kartvelians were closely related linguistically and culturally to Pre-Aryan (in thus context “Aryan” means Indo-European) aboriginal peoples of ancient Europe among them Etruscans and Proto-Basques.

Proto-Kartvelians were bordered by Zykh tribes to the north-west (those were Proto-Adygh ancestors of modern Adygh and Apsua ), Proto-Nakhs (ancestors of modern Chechens and some Daghestani peoples) to the north-east, Proto-Armenians to the south-east and Aramaeic-speaking tribes to the south and south-west.

Between 2100 and 750 B.C., the area survived the invasions by the Hittites, Celts, Medes, Proto-Persians and Cimmerians. At the same period, the ethnic unity of Proto-Kartvelians broke up into several branches, among them Svanian, Zanyan and East-Kartvelian ones.

That finally led to the formation of modern Kartvelian languages: Georgian (originating from East Kartvelian vernaculars), Svan, Megrelian and Laz (the latter two originating from Zan dialects).

By that time Svans were dominant in modern Svanetia and Abkhazia while Zans inhabited modern Georgian province of Samegrelo, north-eastern coast of Turkey between the rivers of Coruh and Kizil-Irmak, and partially Georgian provinces of Imereti and Guria. As of today, most of Abkhazian Georgians speak Megrelian together with Georgian while those living in Kodori canyon, still speak Svan.

As a result of cultural and geographic delimitation, two core areas of future Georgian culture and statehood formed in western and eastern Georgia by the end of the 8th century B.C. The first Georgian state was the Kingdom of Colchis that covered modern western Georgia (including Abkhazia) and modern Turkish provinces of Coruh & Rize. The Kingdom of Colchis has been mentioned in ancient chronicles at least since the middle of the 6th century B.C.

There is little or no exact information about the ethnic composition of Colchis and Iberia. Since 2 000 B.C., north-western Colchis (modern Abkhazia and part of Krasnodar territory of Russia) was inhabited not only by the Svan and Zan/Sanygh but partially also by the Apsyl people whose origins are unclear. It is assumed but not proven that the Apsyls could be the ancestors of today’s Apsua (one of the ethnic groups of modern Abkhazia speaking distinct language belonging to Adygh group). In any case though, the Apsyls made up less than a quarter of the whole population of north-western Colchis (modern Abkhazia) of that time.

Another important ethnic element of ancient Colchis were Greeks who between 1000 and 550 B.C., established quite a few trade colonies in the coastal area among them Naessus, Pitiys (modern resort town of Pitsunda), Dioscurias, Guenos, Phasis (modern Poti), Apsaros and Rhizos (modern Rize in Turkey). Most of the local Greeks called Pontic Greeks, used to live in the coastal cities where they dominated culturally while their influence in the rural area was quite limited.

Between 653 and 333 B.C., both Colchis and Iberia were successfully surviving in fight against Median and later Persian empires. At the end of the 3d century, southern Iberia saw the armies of Alexander the Great who established a vast Greco-Macedonian empire to the south of the Caucasus dominating both west- and central Asia as well as Greece, Egypt and partially India. Neither Iberia, nor Colchis were incorporated into the empire of Alexander or any of the successor Ellinistic states of the Middle East. However, all ancient Georgian kingdoms especially Colchis, were greatly influenced by ancient Greek culture. Greek was widely spoken all over the country and for a while was one of the official languages.

Between the early 2nd century, B.C.and the late 2nd century A.D., the Kingdom of Colchis together with the neighbor countries, become an arena of long and devastating conflicts between major local powers Rome, Armenia and the short-lived Kingdom of Pontus.

Between 120 and 63 BC, King Mithridate VI Eupator of Pontus, conquered all the Colchis including modern Abkhazia, and incorporated it into his domain that for a while embraced a considerable part of Asia Minor as well as eastern and northern Black Sea coastal areas.

From 187 to 70 B.C., the coalition of greater Armenia and Pontus was actively expanding at the expense of Rome taking over its East Mediterranean possessions. However, the success of anti-Roman alliance did not last long.

As a result of brilliant Roman campaigns of Pompeus and Lucullus, the Kingdom of Pontus was completely destroyed by the Romans and all its territory including Colchis (with modern Abkhazia as its part), were incorporated into Roman Empire as her provinces.

The former Kingdom of Colchis was re-organized by the Romans into the province of Lazicum ruled by Roman legati. The Roman period was marked by further Hellenization of the country in terms of language, economy and especially culture. For example, since the early 3d century, Greco-Latin Philosophical Academy of Phasis (present-day Poti) was quite famous all over the Roman Empire.

The following 600 years of West Georgian/Abkhazian history were marked with manipulation between Rome and Parthia (Iran) who were fighting long wars against each other for the domination in the Middle East including Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Albania (territory of modern Azerbaijan) Iberia and Lazicum.

Persian invasions of Georgian lands touched predominantly Iberia (Eastern Georgia) and less Lazicum (Western Georgia with Abkhazia) where Roman and later Byzantine (East Roman) positions were quite stable until the very end of the 3d century.

In the early 3d century, Roman province of Lazicum was given certain degree of autonomy that by the end of the century developed into full independence and formation of a new Kingdom of Lazica-Egrisi on the basis of smaller principalities of Zans, Svans, Apsyls and Sanyghs. That new West-Georgian state survived more than 250 years until in 562 it was absorbed by East Roman (Byzantine) Empire.

In the middle of the 4h century, Lazica adopted Christianity as her official religion. That event was preceded by the arrival of St. Simon the Kananites (or Kananaios in Greek) who was preaching all over Lazica and met his death in Suaniri (Abkhazia). According to Moses of Chorene, the enemies of Christianity cut him in two halves with a saw.

The re-incorporation of Lazica with Abkhazia into East Roman Empire in 562 was followed by ca 150 years of relative stability that ceased in the early 7th century when the Arabs appeared in the area as a new regional if not global power.

By the year 656, most of the South Caucasus except Lazica –Egrisi, was overrun by the expanding Arabs and became part of the Arab Caliphate that by that time included all of the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe (click on the map to get the full-screen image).

In the former Iberia-Kartlia, an Emirate of Tephelis was established with the centre in Tephelis (Tbilisi). That caused mass migrations of Kartvelian-speaking population westwards to Byzantine-controlled Lazica. As a result, several areas of formerly Svan- and Zan-dominated Lazica became Kartvelian-speaking among them Racha, Imereti and Guria (including today’s Achara)

However, the Byzantine-Arab wars and partial disintegration of the Caliphate, created pre-conditions for the restoration of some elements of Georgian statehood: between 780 and 810 several principalities, kingdoms and other domains in the former Iberia gained sovereignty by throwing off the Arabs.

KING LEON OF EGRIS-ABKHAZIA

At the very end of the 8th century, Abkhazian Achrontos (Byzantine-appointed Governor) Leon launched an anti-imperial uprising, ousted Byzantine troops from most of Lazica, proclaimed the Kingdom of Egris-Abkhazia and bestowed the title of the King upon himself. As of today, some verbal supporters of Abkhazian separatism mistakenly believe that the Kingdom of Egris-Abkhazia was the first state of the Apsuans. That is wrong due to the fact that by its whole nature, Egris-Abkhazia was a pure example of a Georgian state: the majority of its population were Svans, Zans and Kartvelians (all the three groups were speaking closely related languages and were representing the branches of the furture Georgian nation), the official languages were Kartvelian (Georgian) alongside with Greek, the capital of the Kingdom was Kutaisi that was almost purely Kartvelian city. Two decades later, Egris-Abkhazia also seceded from Byzantine Empire ecclesiastically: Egris-Abkhazian church broke with the Patriarch of Constantinople and went under the Jurisdiction of the Catholicos of Mtskheta (the head of East Georgian Orthodox Christian Church) and switched the language of services from Greek to Georgian (Kartvelian). In fact, that was the creation of a united Georgian church that has been existing since the above events excluding a relatively short period of time between 1810 and 1917.

The end of the 10th century saw the forming of the first united Georgian monarchy when Curopalate David of Tao-Klarjeti invaded the Erldom of Kartli previously disputed between the Emirate of Tephelis, and the Kingdoms of Kakheti and Egris-Abkhazia, and crowned his adopted son Bagrat Bagrationi the King of Kartli in 975. Three years later, after the death of his uncle Theodosius the Blind, King of Egris-Abkhazia , Bagrat inherited Abkhazian throne. In 1001 Bagrat also included Tao-Klarjeti (Curopalatinate of Iberia) into his domain as a result of David’s death and finally, in 1008-1010 annexed Kakheti and Ereti thus becoming the King of the united Georgia both eastern and western.

SELJUK INVASION: ABKHAZIA BECOMES ONE OF THE LAST BASTIONS OF GEORGIAN RESISTANCE

The second half of the 11th century was marked by the disastrous invasion of the Seljuk Turks who by the end of 1040s succeeded in building a vast nomadic empire including most of the Central Asia and Iran. In 1071 Seljuk army destroyed the united Byzantine-Armenian and Georgian forces in the battle of Mantsikert, and by 1081, all of Armenia, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Syria and most of Georgia and other countries of the area were conquered and devastated by the Seljuks.

In Georgia, it was only Abkhazia and mountainous areas of Svanetia, Racha and Khevi-Khevsureti remained out of Seljuk control and served as relatively safe haven for numerous refugees. All the rest of the country was dominated by the conquerors that were destroying the cities and fortresses, looting the villages, wiping out both aristocracy and farming population and colonizing the country with the nomadic tribes from Central Asia. In fact, by the end of the 80s of the 11th century, Georgians were at the edge of being irreversibly outnumbered by the newcomers in their own land.

KING DAVID AGMASHENEBELI AND GEORGIAN RECONQUISTA: 1089 -1125

The Anti-Seljuk struggle in Georgia was led by the young King David IV who inherited the throne in 1089 in the age of 16 after the death of his father George II Bagrationi.

Soon after coming to power, David re-built regular army and created peasant militia in order to be able to resist Seljuk colonization of the country. The First Crusade (1096-1099) and Crusaders’ offensive against Seljuk Turks in Anatolia and Syria favored David’s attempts to re-conquer Georgia. By the end of 1099 David stopped paying tribute to the Seljuks and put most of Georgian lands except Tbilisi and Ereti under his effective control having Abkhazia and Svanetia as his reliable rear bases.

In 1105–1124 Georgian armies under King David undertake a series of brilliant campaigns against the Seljuk Turks and liberate not only the rest of Georgia but also Christian-populated Ghishi- Kabala area in western Shirvan and a big portion of Armenia. During the same period of time, Georgian protectorate was established over Alania (1120) and Islamized eastern Shirvan (1124). Several months later, King David died (01/1125) leaving Georgia with the status of a strong regional power. In his country, King David is called Agmashenebeli. That can be translated into English as “the re-constructor” or “the restorer”

David Agmashenebeli’s successors (Kings Demeter I, David V and George III) continued the policy of Georgia’s expansion. However, the most glorious sovereign of Georgia of that period was definitely Queen Tamar (David’s great-granddaughter).

QUEEN TAMAR THE GREAT: 1184 -1213

Reign of Queen Tamar was the peak of Georgia’s might in the whole history of the nation.

In 1194-1204 Tamar’s armies crushed new Turkish invasions from the south-east and south and launched several successful campaigns into Turkish-controlled Southern Armenia. As a result, most of Southern Armenia with the cities of Karin, Erzinjan, Khelat, Mush and Van, was put under Georgian control. Although not included into Georgian Crown lands and left under nominal rule of local Turkish Emirs and Sultans, Southern Armenia became a protectorate of the Kingdom of Georgia.

The temporary fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1204 to the Crusaders left Georgia the strongest Christian State in the whole East Mediterranean area. The same year Queen Tamar sent her troops to take over the former Byzantine Lazona and Paryadria with the cities of Atina, Riza, Trebizond, Querasunt, Amysos, Kotyora, Heraclea and Sinopa. In 1205, the occupied territory was transformed into the Empire of Trebizond with Tamar’s’ relative Prince Alexius Comnenus crowned Emperor. Although officially called an Empire the new state was Georgia’s dependency for more than two hundred years.

In 1210 Georgian armies invaded northern Iran (today’s Iranian Azerbaijan) and took the cities of Marand, Tebriz, Ardebil, Zenjan and Kazvin putting part of the conquered territory under Georgian protectorate.

That was the maximal extent of Georgia throughout her history. During the described period of time Queen Tamar was addressed as “The Queen of Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs and Armenians, Shirvan-Shakhine and Shakh-in-Shakhine, The Sovereign of the East and West”. Georgian historians often refer to her as “Queen Tamar the Great”.

The period between the early 12th and the early 13th centuries and especially, the era of Tamar the Great, can truly be considered as the golden age of Georgia. Besides the political and military achievements, it was marked by the development of culture including the architecture, literature, philosophy and sciences all over Georgia including Abkhazia

The Golden Age was interrupted by the Mongol invasions of the early 20s of the 13th century.

Givi, i emailed you. Ldingley 21:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Georgia (country)

No thanks to your brothers south of the border huh :) I see how it is :) [2] [3]. --TigranTheGreat 09:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Draft

Kober, its perfect. Most of the article should concentrate on middle ages, ottoman rule and Russian rule. Dont forget Abkhazia was part of Chilchis, a kingdom of western georgians.Ldingley 18:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. You've been very helpful. --Kober 17:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Any time my dear Kober!Ldingley 18:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

"Proto-Kartvelians were bordered by Zykh tribes to the north-west (those were Proto-Adygh ancestors of modern Adygh and Apsua ), Proto-Nakhs (ancestors of modern Chechens and some Daghestani peoples) to the north-east, Proto-Armenians to the south-east and Aramaeic-speaking tribes to the south and south-west." Quote by A.Andersen

Dear Givi, thank you so much for the award. Im very happy and proud to get it from you. Thanks again, cheers! Ldingley 18:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome dear Luis. A tiny Georgian wiki community is also very happy to have a big (and I mean BIG) friend like you. --Kober 18:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Georgia has bigger friends, US and United Kingdom which is most important :) Kober please review this Sameba photo on Eastern Orthodox Church is it ok? According to Geo Patriarchy, sameba is the largest orthodox church in the worldLdingley 19:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Jorge de Bagration.jpg

Hi, at Image:Jorge de Bagration.jpg you state you received permission to use this image on Wikipedia. Could you please forward a copy of your e-mail request and the answer you got to permissions@wikimedia.org? Thanks! User:Angr 15:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Actually I have not requested it and my friend user:Ldingley emailed that image a few weeks ago.--Kober 15:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

if he want, i can forward my licence number. BTW do you like portal georgia userbox on my user page? Ldingley 15:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Givi, I know about the news of so called “peacekeepers.” I don’t know how effective will this resolution be. I think, UN, OSCE and US should demand their withdrawal. I agree with Georgian opposition, the resolution was too week and did not specify the dates of withdrawal. Also in case of non-compliance with this resolution, there is no mentioning of labeling this so called “peacekeepers” as occupiers. You see, if they don’t go by the resolution, Georgia (parliament + president) should declare Abkhazia and Tskhinvali as occupied regions by Russian Federation. When you recognize the occupation, UN is obliged to respond with sanctions against the country which implements annexation on foreign soil. I did not see such chapter on that resolution. Take your time with Abkhazia History draft, its no rush. If you need anything, let me know. Thanks. Ldingley 17:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, Luis. I emailed you.--Kober 17:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gamsakhurdia Article

Hello,

I wanted to let you know about what happened when I tried to edit the Zviad Gamsakhurdia Article. I went in and tried to add some Categories relating to his death. When it went to Edit mode I found that the whole last part had been cut off. I just wanted to let you know that I didn't do that on purpose. I don't know what happened.

Regards,

Michael David 12:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Michael, thanks for your comment. I guessed that it was a error of the system. If I can be of any assistance on the Gamsakhurdia article, please feel free to contact me. All the best, --Kober 13:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kober, how can i insert citations? Can you insert the citations? I can give you the specific ones which apply to the claims. Let me know. Thanks. Ldingley 15:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Luis. You can insert the citations this way <ref>citation</ref>. I added a reference footer in the article and each citation inserted in the text will appear below on the page. If you give me these references I will add them to the article. I'd ask you also to specify the exact source of the citation and URL if available. Cheers,--Kober 15:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Btw, did you receive my email? I've got some more pics for you and I'll send them in a few days.

Givi, i have appr. 2000 sources + citations :) i managed to insert citations, please review. I will see my email now. Thanks. Ldingley 17:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid even 100,000 sources won't be enough to make some jingos believe in the facts they don't particularly enjoy:) --Kober 18:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

He is Russian, therefore, pro-Russian nationalistic, chauvinistic POV pusher. Lets not feed the troll :) let him starve :) Ldingley 18:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] News

Could you please confirm and update this? Thank you.--TheFEARgod 10:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the help. I leave the coverage to you..--TheFEARgod 18:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll work on this. Cheers, --Kober 19:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abkhaz government

Dear Kober, you never cease to amaze me with your much needed contributions. The Abkhaz Government page looks great; I’ll add more things later on. The development in Kodori was very interesting and finally the Government of Abkhazia can function within the administrative borders of Abkhazia. The separatist make tons of threats and probably will strike against Kodori (which would have disastrous effect o their fragile and petty rule). Let’s not forget that this Government in Kodori represents 300,000 people and was legally elected before the war. Mr Nadareishvili always hoped that someday he would have his government in Gali but I think Kodori is much better in terms of closeness to Sukhumi and strategic advantage in heart of Abkhazia. Russian definitely will plan provocative actions this fall. Kvitsiani is the perfect example of the traitorous scoundrel who will sell his own mother. Georgia has seen people like him before, Abashidze, Arzimba, Kitovani, Oiseliani, Mamaladze, etc. I think Saakashvili has a strong backing from US/EU and therefore, he has a well outlined plan to restore territorial integrity and kick Russian out for good. But as I told you before, the Abkhaz war for Georgians was very tragic however, for Abkhaz it will turn out to be a true catastrophe.

Thanks for your reply, Luis. I completely agree with you. I think Bagapsh's present threats reflect how the separatists are disappointed and panicked. I'm pretty sure they did not expect this pattern of developments.--Kober 16:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ქართული ვიკიდან

გაგიმარჯოს, ამასაც რომ მიხედო ძალიან კარგს იზამ.. პატრონი არ ყავს :(

გაუმარჯოს; შევეცდები, მაგრამ არ ვიცი რამდენად შევძლებ. en.wiki საკმაოდ დიდ დროს მართმევს, განსაკუთრებით აფხაზეთთან დაკავშირებული თემები, რომლებიც მუდმივი იერიშის საგანია მავანთათვის.

[edit] Sxva xalxi

Selamünaleyküm Macahel, Gamarjobat Kober,

Cota gvian cavikitxe tkveni dialogebi. Turkulshi aseti gamotkma aris: Eğri oturup doğru konuşalım. Axla eg ikos chveni dasturi: Pirvelad unda tkvat simartle: Turketis kartvelebi anu gurjebi, arian maxmadianebi da amitom eg xalxi aghar ikenebda sitkva kartvels, amboda gurci anu chveneburi. Mtavari iko religia, da ratkma unda dgesac bevristvis klav mtavria religia. Eg kvelaperi me kargad mesmis. Magram eg xalxi, maxmadiani kartvelebi anu gurjebi ar aris mtlianad gadmosuli Ajaridan, gurcebis umetesi aris sxva regioneabidan. Da turketshi, roca gurjebi gurjulad (anu kartulad) “ajareli var anu ajarlebi vart” itkvis, eg nishnavs rom eg xalxi aris kvemo anu zemo ajaridan. Danarcheni gamoxatavs tavisi carsuls sxva sitkvebit, roca gurjulad itkvis: Batumeli, Çuruksuli, Machaxleli, Imerxevli da ase... Istoriuli Ajara, icit rom Ajarisskalis heobas nishnavs, Zemo Ajaras, Kvemo Ajaras da Shuaxevs. Turketshi gurci maxmadiani turkulad tavisi erovnebas ar asaxelebs Ajar (Acar), eg simartle ar aris. Mokled, gurjebi tavisi erovnebas asaxelebs turkulad Gurci (Gürcü), cheveburay (gurculad) Chveneburi. Da kvela danarcheni turketeli (turki anu sxva erevnobesi xalxi), turketis kartvelebs ucodebs Gürcü. Kvelam vicit rom eg Ajarlar, vitom sxva xalxi, adre F. Kırzıoğlu da mere imis mocape Y. Zeyrek’is mtkicebebi aris. Shesazlebelia rom gurjebis shors carmoshobit turkebis anu kipchakebis iknebian, eg ar aris sakvirveli. Magram erti kaci gamova da rom ambobs chven sxva xalxi vart, eg ras nishnavs, unda gavigot. Tu eg nishnavs sxva religiis xals gasagebia. Tu ambobs rom gaturkebuli vart, egec gasegibia da gurjebis umetesi martlac gaturkebuilia. Eg istoriuli paktia da veravin ver itkvis rom cudi ramea. Amitomac rom ak ar arsebos kerzo adamianis brali. Da bolo sitkva: tu vigaca amobs rom Ajarlar anu Acarlar (ara Ajarlebi da Ajarebi /Ajarlar), simartles ki ara, amboms imas rac amoben Kırzıoğlu da Zeyreki. Amitom Macahel-i, certilamde erti da igive sitkvebs cers am tekstebshi, rac daceres Kırzıoğlu da Zeyrekma. Kırzıoğlus da Zeyrekis mocapeebsac vesalmebi, da martali xart, tkven martlac sxva xalxi xart! --SidE 10:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Gamarjoba, SidE. Didi madloba saintereso cerilistvis. me mainc vpikrob rom turketis da saqartvelos qartvelebi mainc ertmanetis dzmebi vart miuxedavad sxvadasxva religiisa. Kargad, --Kober 16:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Kober, gamarjoba! Shen upro kardag ici Wikis cesebi da erti rame mainteresebs. Tu Wikishi aris oroli staita erti da igive temaze, ra xteba mashin. Magalitad, tkvat rom turkul Wikishi aris oroli statiebi; erts akvs kavshiri inglisur Wikistan da meores ara. Martlac aris aseti magalitebi. Kargad...--SidE 20:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Gagimarjos. aset shemtxvevashi unda moitxovo rom darches mxolod ufro misagebi, neitraluri da kargad dacerili statia, da meore saertod unda caishalos. Mgoni exla Adjara ukavshirdeba Acaristan-s, xom ar shevcvalo Acara-ze? Kargad SidE...--Kober 03:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please

Can you upload the image of the Transcaucasian SSR coat of arms to commons? User:Norrin_strange

Hi. Here it is. --Kober 16:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks!--Norrin_strange (Talk) 09:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kober

Dear Givi, please review, correct and add more regions Template:Georgian historical regions. Thanks. Ldingley 20:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What a great idea, Luis! I made some rearrangements to illustrate all major regions. I'll add other historical subdivions later. I removed Samurzakano and Egrisi because, I think, the former is better classified as a district within Abkhazeti and Samegrelo, and the latter as a historic state which included several regions. What do you think about this? Thanks for your great job.--Kober 20:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Finally you joined us :) I was panicking here, thinking you abandoned Wikipedia :) You did a great job on that template. Samurzakhano (Gali) and Egrisi (Abkhazia) were former names, you are correct. But i don’t know if i should attach this template to Abkhazia article. I'll get attached by Russians, you know how it is. What do you think about changes to Abkhazia article ? Ldingley 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm back here, Luis :) Err... I'm not sure about the Abkhazia article... What about to attach the template to the upcoming History of Abkhazia article? However, I think I'm going to be bold to include the template in the main Abkh. article. Perhaps I'll figure it out tomorrow, I'm too sleepy now :)

Btw, I've just noticed that there was no Georgia map showing the location of Abkhazia. And you finally filled the gap. Many thanks indeed! --Kober 20:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Kober, also we need to change the template on this article Politics of Abkhazia. The Politics of Abkhazia should include De jure govenment due to the simple fact that they are now located in Kodori, Abkhazia (17% of the territory). Ldingley 21:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Kober are you online? Ldingley 14:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Luis. I am. --Kober 14:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Whats up? whats new with you? Great job on Sameba, finally its almost completed :) How is Tbilisi? its +36 here :) terrible. Ldingley 14:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost exhausted by heat :) Its +35 here :) I hope Soso will add some more text to the Sameba article. I'm planning to take some photos of the Cathedral myself and I'll send you them. --Kober 15:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Great! what else is new? :)

take a look at Dmitry Kholodov and Andrey Soloviev

[edit] Nakhichevan

Kober, I'm going to re-write the Nakhichevan history section and I was wondering was Nakhichevan ever part of the Georgian Kingdom? If so could provide me with references, etc.? Thanks! -- Clevelander 00:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

გმადლობთ! My Georgian's a bit rusty so forgive me if I didn't say that right. Anyway, in English, thank you for the information. I was heading over to my library today and I was actually planning to check out Toumanoff's book. -- Clevelander 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atlas of Conflicts

Grandmaster claims that Atlas of Conflicts and Andrew Andersen are not authoritative or credible sources on the Nakhichevan talk page. Is this true? -- Clevelander 14:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's his bio:

Dr. Andrew Andersen was born in the USSR and grew up in Siberia and Latvia. He received his Master's degree from Moscow State University in 1980 where he later taught. His Master's thesis covered the influence of the World Wars on 20th Century American literature. In 1984 he obtained his Ph.D. from Moscow State University. Andersen's Ph.D. thesis analyzed the evolution and transformation of American public opinion and mass-media coverage regarding the US role in the Vietnam War (1962-75). At the beginning of Perestroyka, Andersen left the USSR and settled in Germany where he coordinated a number of Eastern European seminars, courses and projects organized by Wirtschaftsakatdemie in Kiel (Schleswig-Holstein). In 1994 Andrew Andersen immigrated to Canada. Upon landing in Toronto (Ontario) he worked as a TV reporter and show co-host at Mix-TV Broadcasting Company. In 1996 he moved with his family to British Columbia. Between 1996 and 2003 Andrew Andersen taught various Political Science courses at the University of Victoria. In 2003 he was granted a position of research fellowship with the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary. Andrew Andersen has written a number of books and articles for national and international professional magazines on ethnic, territorial and ideological conflicts, as well as on other international security-related issues.[4]. --Kober 14:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

გმადლობთ! This is great. -- Clevelander 14:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)