Talk:Ko shogi

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Hey JT,

Since the English names for these pieces are still up in the air, it might be a good idea to include the kanji every time a piece is mentioned. Even for readers who know not a single character, that might help them identify a piece if the English name no longer matches. kwami 10:02, 2005 September 10 (UTC)

Looks like there's more to the game. The poison flame, for example, moves just like its unpromoted counterpart (like a copper general); what it gains is a fire demon's burn. Other pieces lose their promotion in certain circumstances. I'll try to get to this. kwami 10:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, unpromoted pieces verified. But these names are a real headache! We should put a note in that they are just ad hoc translations for the most part. kwami 11:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

All movements verified per Japanese wiki. I've asked a couple people for help in translating the names; so far no response. The translations on the English-language site in the references are completely off. kwami 01:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Portal

I linked to this in "Did you know" on the portal. Fg2 12:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions on movement

I'd love a little clarity on this. The free boar moves diagonally or horizontally as a range mover. This reference says it [= imperial base? kwami] moves like a bishop and a free boar, which one is it?

* Range: The imperial base can move any number of free intersections in the four diagonal directions.

   This is the move of the free boar in chu shogi.

Thanks for catching that, ~~Anon~~ Shumby. The imperial base moves in 6 directions, like the free boar. I've corrected the description. kwami 20:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You make many references to "cardinal" and "prime" directions. Please clarify. Does that mean 8 directions or orthogonal...?

Oops, 'cardinal' should be removed. I thought I had defined 'prime' as being 8 directions. There is no good word for it in English that I know of, but setting up a convention within the article makes it easier to talk about the pieces. kwami 21:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, do the bows/cannons/guns need to make the first move in order to shoot? In other words, are the permitted to stay in place and shoot turn after turn?

I don't know. Japanese Wikipedia doesn't say, and I don't know of any other source. I think that point is made in the article. I can only assume, and I would think that if there were special restrictions, the rules would make that clear. (After all, double-moving pieces such as the Lion and Hook mover don't have to take their second move.) So if I were playing, I'd assume that a piece can shoot in place unless told otherwise. kwami 21:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent! thank you so much! this game seems pretty difficult to approach strategically... have you played this?

No, I haven't. Don't know of anyone who has. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok... couple more things came up while I was researching. There are many pieces that have immunity to the "guns" "bows" "chariots", etc... what about the promoted forms of "bow", etc.?

No. The restrictions drop when those pieces promote. You'll notice that the promoted pieces aren't mentioned in the description of the Base. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

And second, when does a 12 Mile Fog revert to a highway? Does the Immaculate Light have to end it's turn within 5 spaces or just at some point be within 5 spaces? (like igui...)

Not clear. The way I interpret it, igui would cause demotion. But that's not explicitly stated in Japanese wiki:

聖燈から八方向5路の所に五里霧があれば、それは高道に戻る。

If a 12 Mile Fog is at a place 5 steps in the 8 directions from an Immaculate Light, it reverts to to a Highway.

この駒から八方向の五路以内に敵の聖燈がいれば、高道に戻る。

If an enemy Immaculate Light is within 5 steps in the 8 directions from this piece, it reverts to a Highway.

Since the pieces don't really igui like a Lion, but simply move twice, I assume both moves count. This would mean that if a Light moves to within 5 spaces, and then moves away, that the Fog reverts; and that if a Fog moves within 5 spaces on its first move, it reverts immediately, and cannot take a second move. But that's reading a lot into a rather brief description. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. Sorry for not mentioning my name. I've posted the last few questions. You've been very good about answering them.

-Shumby

No prob. Your questions help verify the article, and you've caught some stuff I need to change. Also, it's good to have a record of assumptions and unanswered questions here for future reference. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Japanese wiki does not list the archer cavalrymen among the pieces that cannot attack the Base, and in the piece descriptions does not list any attack restrictions. However, this could be an omission. (Yes, it's omitted twice, but both could be due to a single omission or misreading of the source used for the Japanese article.) In all other cases both the unpromoted and promoted pieces are restricted from harming the Base. Since the weapons stay the same, it would make sense for the archer cavalrymen to be restricted as well. So I'm going to leave the description as is, to preserve the possibility that this is an error, rather than trying to fix something I don't understand. kwami 00:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Another question for you... when a piece move says "may attack an adjacent intersection"... does that mean an orthogonal intersection or all 8 adjacent intersections. I only ask because this game has some roots in Go, where adjacent means only orthogonal. Thanks!!!!

All 8. This is a fundamental difference between chess and Go, though since we're playing on a Go board, I guess we should spell it out. Never even thought of that! kwami 23:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] more questions

QUESTION 1

If the General has been captured and the game continuing with the unpromoted Middle army and Banner, what happens when the Banner promotes? I can see three possibilities:

a) promotion of the Banner would be a suicide move if the player did not have a General or Governor;

b) the game would continue, but the opposing side could only win by capturing the Middle Army; capture of the promoted Banner (Roaming Assault) would NOT end the game even if the Middle army had not promoted;

c) the promoted Banner would act in this regard the same as the unpromoted Banner: whilst the Middle army remained unpromoted the opposing side can win by capturing the Banner whether in its promoted or unpromoted form;

-Which of these alternatives is correct?

Good question. The Japanese article only states that you can loose your general as long as you have your middle troop and banner, or else a governor. If I had to guess I would say (c), but that's only a guess. kwami

QUESTION 2

Similarly, do the pawns still have the ability to move forwards if the Drums promotes, and does capture of the promoted Drums stop forward movement by the pawns? (Posted by MJW)

Japanese wiki says that if the drum dies, the pawns can no longer move forward. It says nothing about what happens if the drum promotes or the promoted drum dies.

Good questions to keep in mind. Maybe the primary references answer these questions, but I don't have access to them. kwami 02:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Ko shogi

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