Talk:Knight Kadosh

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Contents 1 Why this page? 2 Northern Jurisdiction Degrees 3 User Pages 4 From ACF Jackson - The Knight Kadosh or Ne Plus Ultra 5 Merge? 6 Magnum Opus says...

[edit] Why this page?

This page is simply a copy of a section at Catholicism and Freemasonry. It adds NO new information. It is not a sub-page... The point of subpages is to expand on the information contained in the mainpage, not just to repeat it. Is anyone planning to expand this article? If so, what kind of information will be included? Blueboar 17:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Could do, I've just skimmed the description of the degree in ACF Jackson, but it doesn't match with the description here, oops. Given that, I'm not sure of the purpose unless we copy the descriptions of all 33 from Jackson. I'd rather not describe all 33, so this one is a bit of an anomaly.ALR 19:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It also doesn't address the fact that the CE used the obsolete Cerneau source, and not the real source, on which to base its argument. Even in 1913 (the date for the old CE), Cerneau had been out of use for over 40 years. MSJapan 21:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Jackson does talk about the penalties of the degree, as one of the Elu series, being pretty gruesome. He doesn't go into depth, but it's clear he's talking about the penalties on the candidate, similar to TCAAMTTOBTR (EA) etc, nothing more than that. I'll transcribe in a few days, studying for an exam on Friday so it'll have to wait til after that.ALR 21:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Why this page? Because I was going to put some text in the Scottish Rite degree page on the controversy and then realised that the Knight Kadosh didn't have an article. I am sure that the text will soon include more than the information from the C&FM page.JASpencer 22:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it's justifiable to have an article dedicated to it, the issues surrounding the Cerneau ritual are discussed elsewhere. On this justification there would have to be a couple of hundred different articles, each dealing with an individual degree or grade ceremony, many of them with little potential to be more than a few lines long.ALR 06:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I was a bit put off by the use of Å.E. Waite's "New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" as a source for this article. I don't know anyone that uses A.E. Waite by itself, and usually when they do it is to show how most responsible historians and authors disagree with him. I have Waite on my reference shelves, but I keep it on a high shelf as I rarely ever use it. Closer to hand are "Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia," Bernard Jones' "Freemasons' Guide and Compendium," recent volumes of A.Q.C. (from the London Research Lodge). Other older works that I would reach for long before I would ever look in Waite are "Gould's History of Freemasonry," and "Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia." But I'd never refer to the last two without comparing with the others. For history of the Scottish Rite A.C.F. Jackson's "Rose Croix," and Wm. L. Fox's "Lodge of the Double Headed Eagle" are the best sources, although there is always updated information being published in A.Q.C. or the Scottish Rite Research Society. But as for Waite? I'd put it up high, where you can't reach it easily.PGNormand 17:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the abbreviations are OK, but I would say that Waite's explanations of workings are somewhat fanciful. However, I also know Gould is a bit off in places as well (for example, he misspelled the German word for "stonemason"). I think we need the citations (especially since Waite and others' works are readily available at local bookstores), but it might be helpful to have a third-party source that critiques Waite and his contemporaries' methodology. MSJapan 21:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't either last years or the previous AQC contain an article on Waite? ISTR reading something about him in one, but I don't keep mine in order, they're all over the house so it could be in any one from the last 10 years or so.ALR 21:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I orgianlly added the Waite references, because that was what I had on hand at the time. Although I believe most of Waite's earlier works are completely unreliable, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" can be used for historical context. I have also added a Mackey ref, which was the exact same information regarding the Kadosh ritual. I am pleased to see that your library is so extensive, PGNormand. Feel free to broaden what I started in terms of the history of this degree. Chtirrell 00:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Jurisdiction Degrees

When the Scottish Rite Degrees are mentioned or listed in Wikipedia articles a practice seems to have developed that an editor will post the title(s) of the Degree(s) in the Southern Jurisdiction and then offer the title(s) as they appear in the Northern Jurisdiction, as if these were simply two different but equal lists of title(s) of the Degrees. In fact, however, the titles of the Degrees and their arrangement, as used by the Mother (Southern) Supreme Council, is substantially the same list or "tableau" of Degrees that is used in the Canadian Supreme Council, the English Supreme Council, the Australian Supreme Council, and virtually every other Supreme Council in the world. It is the Northern Supreme Council of the U.S. that has made fairly dramatic changes to the titles of its Degrees, their arrangment, and even their content. It needs to be remembered that there are more than two Supreme Councils in the world, and the U.S. Supreme Councils, although the Southern Jurisdiction is the oldest, are not the only ones. The Kadosh Degree appears in every tableau of the Scottish Rite Degrees that I have ever seen, except in that of the Northern Jurisdiction of the U.S.PGNormand 14:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Bro Normand, what I would like to see, either here, OR in the SRJ, is a discussion of the "lineage" of the degrees as worked by th AASR around the world. We know, for example, that the degrees that were first worked by the SJ, are not what were being worked after the Pike revision, and that what is now being worked in the SJ is not the "pure" Pike revision anymore. I'm mindful of Henderson's Masonic World Guide which describes the descent of all of the various GL's, and a quick blurb about what ritual they use. So, for example, we would see: SJ (Pre Pike (and a better description of it than that), Pike, new ritual) or whatever the progression was, and then NMJ (Pre-Pike, Cerneau or whatever the source was, revision, and the latest revision . . .). I'll talk about some of this with a friend at NMJ in Lexington, about developing a history of this, even in a short outline form.--Vidkun 15:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User Pages

Could I ask editors who are discussing these things on their user pages to discuss them here so that there can be some coherance. It's OK now because we all have watchpages, but in six months time some of these conversations will be harder to piece together. It will also keep a couple of my more millitant comrades from muttering about back channels. JASpencer 22:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Communication between individuals is between them... that is what user talk pages are for. Thanks for telling me that you watch our user pages... now I know to say nasty things about you.  :>) Blueboar 23:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

TBH, it's really the same discussion as has been going on on the Scottish Rite and/or Catholicism and Freemasonry pages. To sum up, the problem is that the degree as it is complained about was never a mainstream degree (see Cerneau discussions), and was last valid in 1867. For myself, though, I think this seems like an attempt to POV push - even if we were to assume hypothetically that this degree was the real degree at one point, it's been changed numerous times in both jurisdictions, and the argument is therefore dated and no longer valid (though textual proof shows that the argument was invalid long before the argument was made). So why an article on only this degree, especially given the negative proof available? MSJapan 23:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From ACF Jackson - The Knight Kadosh or Ne Plus Ultra

This is from an appendix to ACF Jacksons history of the A&AR, so the rituals discussed are predicated on being the English ones, derived from the rituals passed by NMJ when England was warranted to form it's own Supreme Council. Therefore it has not been influenced by Pikes writings, NMJ existed before Pikes alterations.

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The degree is worked in full by the Supreme Council for England and Wales for the promotion of Most Wise Sovereigns of the 18th Rose Croix degree. Candidates are those who have been recommended for this promotion by the Chapters, and elected by the Supreme Council to the 30th. Before the ceremony of the 30th the intermediate degrees of 19 to 29 are communicated and conferred by name only. tHis is always done by the Supreme Council or its representatives.

The past history of the degree is, however, of much interest to students of the A&A Rite. The actual Kadosh degree may have been the last of a series of Elu (Elect) degrees. These Elect degrees are called the 'Vengeance Degrees' but there is some doubt whether the originals dealt with earthly punishments. A 1765 version of the Chevalier Elu (not 30th at the time) finds the master telling the candidate you know well the persecutions which wiped out the Templars....Our leader, in the middle of his torments, said no more than that God was too just to leave this crime unpunished

There is considerable evidence that the origins of this type of Kadosh degree lie in Germany and were a development of the Rite of Strict Observance. The degree was probably introduced into France through Metz, with the inspirer being the same master of a Metz Lodge, Meunier de Precourt, who game information to Willermoz about the 18th. The degree had a bad reception in Paris and was condemned by the Council of the Kinghts of the East as 'false, fanatical, detestable, not only because it was contrary to the principles and duties of the State and Church'. It was, however, accepted by the Council of Emperors of the East and West. Its actual date may be fixed by the fact that, as late as 1767, the Compte de Cleremont wrote that the 'limit of the sublime degrees in Masonry' was 15 of which the summit was the Rose Croix, while by 1717 it was the Kadosh degree mentioned in Franckens Ms.

A legend in early versions is that the Elect (of 9 or 15) had descendents who were Kadosh (probablu a Hebrew word implying holy or consecrated). In due course, 70 of these Kadosh were translators of the bible under Ptolemy, King of Egypt. Later, under the leadership of St John the Almoner, they and their descendants tended the sick and needy, but they decreased in numbers until there were only a few remaining. These joined the Crusaders. such a story has, of course, no historical foundation. The persecution of the Templars appears in many of the versions of the Kadosh type degrees, with the remnants fleeing to Scotland. Unfortunately most include greusome and unpleasant penalties and these have been used by anti-masonic bodies in the same way that the penalties of the Symbolic degrees have been used to denograte Craft Masonry.

In the London French Ms, the candidates have to swear never to stop hating the Kinghts of Malta because they became rich with the wealth of the Kights Templar. This is historically untrue and the story was probably invented as an attack on the Roman Catholic Church, which had always been in amity with the Knights of Malta, and still is.

Towards the end of the 19th Century, when relations in France between State and Church were at their lowest ebb, the 'liberal-minded' members of the Grand Orient and its Council of Rites changed the ritual of the degree and used it for deliberate attack son the Church. Fortunately most of these conentious rituals have disappeared and the high degrees in France are now adaptations of more reasonable ones.

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Note: The various Elu degrees are extensions of the Traditional History of the 3rd.

That may inform the discussion.ALR 15:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Any comments on the Merge proposal? Personally, I don't mind... but I also don't think it is completely needed either. Blueboar 17:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think keeping them seperate is the way to go. I don't believe ever SR degree needs an article, but this is a special case. Chtirrell 19:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps we should remove the tag? Blueboar 19:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

As I raised the issue it should be clear that I think they need merged. I don't see any justification for it to be distinct (fwiw I've just got home from an A&AR meeting) as it's no more special than any of the other degrees. There are elements of any of them that could be twisted to support positions hostile to FM but it appears that this one is a hobby horse.ALR 22:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that Knight Kadosh has notoreity seperate from the Scottish Rite. The main thrust of the Larry Holly onslaught on Freemasonry at the Southern Baptist Convention in the 1990s was what he alleged happened in the Knight Kadosh degree. This was perhaps the most notable single Christian criticism of Freemasonry since Quaesitum est. JASpencer 21:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

JAS does have a point ... Whether the alegations are true or not, unlike other degrees the Kadosh degree has been singled out for condemnation by Catholics and Fundamentalist Protestants alike. If it ends up that we do merge this into Scottish Rite, NPOV does indicate that some discussion of this specific degree (and the allegations of Anti-masons concerning it), should be included.

In either case... it does need to be noted that the various complaints are now definitely outdated, since this degree was majorly re-worked in the recent ritual revisions (as of 2004, I think). Blueboar 23:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magnum Opus says...

As the degree was originally written, it consists of an opening, an obligation, a very long history of the Templars, and a closing. It is mostly one long historical recitation, within which there are only a few mentions of Clement V, no mention of a tiara, and the candidate does nothing but sit and listen.

Pike, Albert. Magnum Opus or The Great Work, Kessinger, section XXX, pp. 1-19. ISBN 141791095X.

There are no internal page numbers, and each degree has its own section with its own page numbers. There is also no date, and no place of publication. MSJapan 00:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)