User talk:Kleinzach/Archive4

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Contents 1 Stefan Zucker; Rock Opera 2 Motezuma versus Montezuma 2.1 Barga 3 Vocal range 4 Alexander in India 5 Meladina's Russian opera articles (June 2006) 5.1 Three entries 5.2 Mikhail Popov 5.3 Mikhail Popov again 5.4 Front page 5.5 Karl Kniper Theatre 5.6 Russian opera 5.7 Dunayevsky 5.8 Vladimir Rebikoff 5.9 Russian opera again 5.10 Rebikoff's problem 5.11 Page size problem 5.12 Templates 5.13 Warning 5.14 A few new entries 5.15 3 more 5.16 Sergei Slonimsky 5.17 Stradella 5.18 Matinsky 6 Gilbert & Sullivan Category 7 Singers 8 One more thing regarding Japanese naming 9 Yakov Knyazhnin 10 Spelling question 11 Editing for Meladina 12 Der Freishütz 13 Opera houses intro 14 Redirects

[edit] Stefan Zucker; Rock Opera

I rewrote the Stefan Zucker entry. Have you ever heard him sing? Hilarious! By the way, I disagree with your response to the guys who suggested adding info re rock opera to the opera pages. See the talk page. I really think you should re-think that. --Ssilvers 16:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I have already done the latter. The question is not whether 'Rock opera' should be covered on Wikipedia but whether 'Rock opera' is a legitimate genre of opera. How about putting a biographical note up about yourself so that we know who you are? Regards - Kleinzach 16:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Look, I have no interest in rock opera. I've seen some of them. But they are operas. Have you seen a number of them? Also, I don't feel like having personal info about me on the internet. I'm a lawyer in NYC and I sing. FYI, I have performed Figaro in Mozart's Nozze, Don G. in Don G., Papageno in Flute, Alcindoro and Benoit in Boheme, and a number of other opera roles, but mostly I have done G&S. --Ssilvers 16:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

ps I also rewrote/shortened the Joseph Volpe (opera) article more. See what you think. --Ssilvers 17:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you know how many opera genres there are? We found a list of 1,505 of them (composers often try to be original). So if we are going to list the 20 most important ones, they have to be pretty relevant. You express yourself in very definite terms - not doubt that is the style of a New York lawyer - but I hope you will respect the views of the various contributors here some of whom have been writing about opera for years in scholarly journals etc.

Well done with Joseph Volpe (opera). The main thing with articles like this one (and Zucker) is to avoid a point of view. Wikipedia is all about facts not opinions - you put those in your blog. Incidentally it still needs some wikification - links to people, places etc. even if these are red. Kleinzach 17:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I enjoyed contributing. I appreciate what you are saying, but frankly it is nonsense. This is not the "original" genre of one composer. If the only rock opera were "Tommy", then I agree that it would not be a big deal. But there are dozens of them. Moreover, think about what is most frequently performed in the world. Les Miserables is performed more than all the entrants in some of your major "genres". There is no opinion here. Here is a big body of operas that you are ignoring because you are buying into a prejudiced notion promulgated by the opera establishment. I urge you to rise above that and look at the body of work. I still have not heard any reasoned analysis as to why these are not operas. The only distinctions that I can see are that they are not sung by "operatically trained" voices and that they are played by amplified instruments. But they (or at least many of them) have all the other characteristics that describe opera. They have dramatic stories told by music; the music is often more important than the lyrics and libretto; they often have no dialogue; the score is a series of arias and recit or arioso, scenas, and all the other musical indicia of opera. Unfortunately, the rock opera page is not in very good shape yet, but I don't think you would dismiss a genre simply because the Wiki page is not stablized. Your sarcastic snipes at my profession (or location) and at the fellow who merely asked the question on the opera talk page do not make me think that you "respect the views of the various contributors here...." I hope I am wrong and that you will take a serious look at this large body of opera. --Ssilvers 18:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have time for this kind of discussion. Presumably you have seen what I wrote on the Opera article talk page. No doubt other people will express opinions as well. It's important to define your terms and not make bald, unsupported statements otherwise it's just a waste of time. Wikipedia is written from an international, neutral point of view. There is no need to push your views on other people. If you are interested in a subject then go ahead and write about it. That's how Wikipedia works - not by telling other people they are taking 'nonsense'. Basta! - Kleinzach 18:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for calling your assertion nonsense. What I meant to say is that your statement that this body of work is not opera has not been supported by any facts or analysis. I think I've given as much support as I can for my statements, so I agree that, unless you want to discuss the subject, I have done all I can. --Ssilvers 19:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

We are debating whether or not 'Rock opera' is a major genre of opera (and therefore should be listed as such). I say it isn't for the reasons given on the Opera talk page. (Oh, and by the way, I have seen Les misérables.) Kleinzach 19:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motezuma versus Montezuma

With the removal of the questionable 1992 TV film reference, I think that the facts on the Motezuma aerticle are now substantially correct, so a disclaimer doesn't seem to be necessary.

I shall try to find an account of the Dusseldorf performances. Vivaverdi 12:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barga

I'd not heard of it either, but shall add it to the Opera Festivals page and do some research for an article - unless you'd prefer to do (with your Scottish connectin 'n all.......). Karyl Charna Lynn's "Italian Opera Houses and Festivals" has one page on it. Vivaverdi 12:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vocal range

Hi, I've seen you write in the vocal range talk page. are there samples of the georgia brown' record??? or sounds in the 9th octave? is she a soprano?

Can you please sign? I am really not sure what this is about . . . . Kleinzach 22:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Now someone has been editing this! What is going on? Kleinzach 14:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alexander in India

You're right, I just thought we were doing English titles, when translatable, but perhaps I was mistaken, in which case I'm happy to fix it up, just give me a shout. Mak (talk) 21:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that makes perfect sense to me, and I was hesitant about putting it at the English title in the first place. Just goes to show I never read the directions :) I'll fix it. Mak (talk) 22:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meladina's Russian opera articles (June 2006)

[edit] Three entries

Today i did 3 entries: Galina Sergeeva, Alexander Ablesimov & Isaak Dunayevsky (Meladina 00:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

What is a 'meladeclamation'? I don't know this word. - Kleinzach 07:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Melodeclamation = short concert piece, a kind of melodrama = a reading with music accompaniment. (I've just create this entry)

I added the following paragraph, could you check please?

"There is an interesting fact: after Dunayevsky’s death it was found in his archive the opera libretto “Rashel” (1943) by Mikhail Bulgakov, previously totally unknown. The libretto was based on Guy de Maupassant’s Mademoiselle Fifi. Published in a book by Naum Shafer (see references and links below)."

Probably it can be placed in "Do you know..."? (Meladina 08:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

I found a reference: reference

"a music technique, "melodeclamation," a type of rhythmic vocal writing that bears a resemblance to Sprechstimme."

(Meladina 08:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

Ah! The problem was the spelling mistake! - Kleinzach 09:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Where can I find the text of yout definition of opera? (Meladina 09:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

At Talk:Opera under 'Rock Opera, anyone?' - Kleinzach 09:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Another derfinition: meladeclamation, a declamation by Meladina! - Kleinzach 09:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a very important definition worthy of a separate Wikipedia article! (Meladina 11:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

Dear S, I placed my opinion. Sorry I contradict you. I do not think we have to loose our time in this discussion.

We will not decide - the time will show who is right. (Meladina 09:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

Yes indeed. A composer's viewpoint is different from that of an editor/writer! Actually this argument has come up before. We were accused of being Euro-centric by not including Chinese opera etc. - Kleinzach 09:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mikhail Popov

Opera librettist Mikhail Popov (Meladina 13:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

Done. Incidentally do you have definite/indefinite articles in Russian? I don't know if this helps but the in English is basically specific, while a and an are non-specific. Maybe it's tricky? Kleinzach 16:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand this, and if I have any articles in English, I quote them first. However if I can't get them, I have no choice. (Meladina 16:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

No, no definite/indefinite articles not (paper/journal) articles! - Kleinzach 16:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I’ve just created an article Philharmonic Academy of Bologna, but then I have found the stub Accademia Filarmonica of Bologna. I think it is necessary to merge them or to eliminate the stub. Please, help. (Meladina 16:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

I have done a redirect. they are easy to do. Here is the code:

#REDIRECT Philharmonic Academy of Bologna

Kleinzach 16:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mikhail Popov again

You corrected my text, changing the order "with it" into "it with": "He also worked on Slavic mythology with an idea to replace it with Greek and Roman."

Sorry for my English, but I wanted to say something different. The idea of Popov was patriotic and completely opposite: to replace Greek and Roman" popular in Russia of that time, with Slavic mythology, that had to be reinvented because was practically unknown in Russia.(Meladina 16:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

No problem, sometimes I will not understand correctly, in which case please go ahead and re-edit. Kleinzach 16:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, please do it for me: I do nok know how to do it best. (Meladina 16:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

What I mean is that when you find I have misunderstood - which will happen - you should step in and correct iot. - Kleinzach 11:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Front page

Did you noticed Russian opera of the 18th century at the front page of Wikipedia? (Meladina 11:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

Yes, congratulations. We should try to make your Russian opera article a featured article in due course. My own view is that it may be best to put it all in one article under Russian opera at that point to get maximum exposure. Kleinzach 11:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I am very happy with this. About the merging two articles in one I am not sure. I afraid it will be too long. And second reason: in future I am going to write two (or three) more separate articles on 19th and 20th (profably also on 21st) centuries. (Meladina 11:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Karl Kniper Theatre

Karl Kniper Theatre added today (Meladina 19:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

Grove give Knipper with two 'p's. I wonder if we should change the title? - Kleinzach 12:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Kniper is another spelling of the same name. In my sources Karl Kniper always has one 'p'. So I will make the both spellings available. (Meladina 14:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

• Catherine II and opera

Can you provide romanization for the titles? I think that would be helpful. - Kleinzach 10:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Done (Meladina 14:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

What I mean is that you need to provide both a romanization and an English translation in order to make it easy to identify the items. - Kleinzach 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Fevey (Meladina 11:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Russian opera

So, following your advice, I merged two articles in one. I also created a subpage with Russian opera articles Now we have to eliminate Russian opera in the 18th century. Please, help. (Meladina 12:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC))

At the moment, there is a redirect. I think that's OK, isn't it? Or is there another problem? - Kleinzach 22:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem! I've manages to solve it myself. (Meladina 07:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Dunayevsky

I've just received a message:

On June 4, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Isaak Dunayevsky, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

You obviously have connections in high places! - Kleinzach 08:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

How are you? Yesterday I've been to the concert at Barbican. Coming to the concert, I saw the wooden sculpture dedicated to the composer Felix Mendelsohn Bartoldi vandalised - it was knocked down and some fragments were brocken into pieces. It was a 500 year old birch tree and it was said Mendelsohn liked to sit near composing his music. This is why, I think, the question of nationality is still very delicate one, when we have to define it at the pages of Wikipedia. By the way, Dunayevsky also was a Jew. Your (Meladina 23:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

I've never heard of this sculpture. Where is it? Vandals in England can be quite stupid, I doubt if they would know that Mendelsssohn was Jewish. - Kleinzach 08:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vladimir Rebikoff

I've expanded this from a very short stub: Vladimir Rebikoff (Meladina 23:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Russian opera again

It seems to me that I have completed Russian opera. It needs your assistance. Yours (Meladina 07:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Not there yet. Pls see my note on Catherine the Great (above). - Kleinzach 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I've just did both tranliteration and translation of all the titles in Catherine the Great article. Yours,(Meladina 09:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Rebikoff's problem

There are two identical articles: Vladimir Rebikov and Vladimir Rebikoff. I tried to eliminate Vladimir Rebikoff with making redirect to Vladimir Rebikov, but it seems that the link is corrupted and I had no success. The problem is just that if we make corrections in one article, we have to copy them into another, which is awkward. Sorry, (Meladina 09:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

I don't understand this. Both articles were started by someone called Sketchee. What was he thinking? Grove has Rebikov, so perhaps we should use that? - Kleinzach 09:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. I have fixed the redirects using Vladimir Rebikov. Kleinzach 10:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page size problem

I've receivead a message that Russian opera article is 41kb long. The size has to be no more than 32kb. I will think what to do, but would be grateful to you for for an advise. (Meladina 14:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Don't worry about it. There is really no problem unless you go much higher. There is a page explaining all about this on Wikipedia. Of course sometimes it is a good idea to make satellite pages, but there is no point in doing this unless it makes logistical sense. - Kleinzach 17:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

Dear S, Thank you for the template, which I tried to create myself without knowledge how to do this. I also tried to do another logo for the composer biography pages:

I suggest to use a logo at the end of the articles of this project:

---

This Composer article is part of the Composers Project

--- but was suddenly stopped by the warning: ** Absolutely not. It is Wikipedia policy to avoid links to project pages from the article namespace. --RobertG ♬ talk 12:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Another suggestion came today:

Hello, I think you should put notices that "the article is part of Russian opera project" on the articles' talk pages rather than in main space. It is common practice with other projects. Check any battle article, for instance. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 14:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

So, I understood, I can place your template only at the discussion pages. This is not too bad. I like the idea these logos – they make the page not so boring, give the visual orientation, right address and invite people to participate. Your template is lovely, and I would like to have similar for the composers' pages as well. Yours (Meladina 20:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Yes I have put a similar boxes on Talk pages as well. They are a good idea. I can do a template for your other one, but I wonder whether it would be a good idea to introduce it on the Composers Project page and get some kind of agreement about using it? - Kleinzach 22:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually a composers template already exists (see the Composers Project talk page). What do you think we should do about this? - Kleinzach 22:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen that boring one. It would be nice to try with Ludvig van. Here is a bit of irony: every composer wants to be like Beethoven (nobody can). (Meladina 23:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Well, yes I agree that having graphics is better, however I think it's best to discuss it with the members of the Composers project. I usually make a proposal on the Talk page, and if there is no reaction I go ahead and do it.

Another thing - if you want to change the background to the box, you need to do it in the template. At the moment your code is showing at the foot of the Russian opera box! - Kleinzach 16:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

Every time when I try to edit any page, there message appears: "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, try logging out and logging back in." I just wonder what does it mean? (meladina 23:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

I get the same warning from time to time. I'm not sure what causes it, but I think you just have to try again. - Kleinzach 00:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A few new entries

• Anyuta
• Vasily Lobanov
• Leonid Bobylev
• Leonid Desyatnikov
• Vladimir Tarnopolsky
• Nikolai Sidelnikov

Done. - Kleinzach 15:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you sent me the DVD? I did not receive yet. (I tried to get Alfaville in London today with no success.) (meladina 23:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC))

Really busy right now. Will be back with you soon. - Kleinzach 18:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3 more

• Calandro
• Stefano Benedetto Pallavicini
• Bernardo Dovizi

Done. - Kleinzach 23:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yesterday I've been to Barbican on the opera by Thomac Ades "Powder Her Face" (a concert performance by LSO with the composer as a conductor). Witty stuff (a sort of contemporary "Lulu"). (meladina 16:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

We need an article on Powder Her Face. I wonder if you could start it as you have at least heard it? This is an article on Thomas Adès. - Kleinzach 10:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Here you are: Powder Her Face (meladina 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC))

Yes, the information was wrong. I've changed: "It was first performed in Cheltenham on July 1, 1995 with Jill Gomez in the leading role, and later banned by ClassicFM for being too raunchy. This was followed by five London performances at the Almeida Theatre."

[edit] Sergei Slonimsky

Sergei Slonimsky - a new entry (meladina 10:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Stradella

I have put my answer on Talk:Opera buffa. (meladina 10:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Matinsky

Here is a new entry: Mikhail Matinsky. I created three more composers' biographies, but two of them are not about the opera composers, and therefore I am not sure that you want to look at them. They need editing and I put my note on Composers' project talk page. Of course, I have no reply, so you are right, it looks as a Ghosts' Town. Thank you very much for DVD. (meladina 07:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

It's not a lot of trouble editing your articles. You are getting better - though it would help if you could get someone to teach you the grammar of definite/indefinite articles! However I will be away next month (and probably much of the year) and won't have the opportunity of being online so much. Do you intend the keep up this level of production? - Kleinzach 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilbert & Sullivan Category

Thanks for your message on my user page. Actually, I didn't create the category, but once I saw that someone had started it, I went the rest of the way.

I didn't realize there was an Operas by Joe Smith hierarchy, but the Gilbert & Sullivan category is a bit different. What's categorized there is not just their joint works, but also a lot of related subjects — other artists whom they worked with; theatres associated with their works; operas they wrote with other collaborators; well known G&S performers; and so forth. Marc Shepherd 16:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. There is indeed considerable overlap between the Gilbert and Sullivan page, the individual bio pages for the collaborators, and the individual pages for each opera. Some of this is inevitable in an encyclopedia, but it hasn't been well rationalized. Part of the problem on WP is that when you remove things, people have a tendency to put them right back in again, unless you can demonstrate that there has been a thorough-going revision with no loss of material. Marc Shepherd 17:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I took another look at the category hierarchy, and your logic makes sense after all, so I reverted my edit. Sorry that wasn't apparent to me at first. Marc Shepherd 21:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singers

Hey Kleinzach. I see you've got a page on early singers. The Grove articles tend to be very stubby, and I've been working on a few, especially those connected with Concerto delle donne and that period in Italy, so I was just wondering if you knew of a good source for these. Also, it's pretty funny, but Grove doesn't have a separate article on La liberazione di Ruggiero, isn't that odd? Do you think it should have the full title as the title of the article? I think this is the standard shortening. Thanks, Mak (talk) 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Too bad about the singers. I'll see what I can do; although I don't know a ton about early opera, it does interest me. Apparently Ruggiero is the only opera by Francesca Caccini to survive, probably because it was printed. Apparently there's even a recording [1], but it doesn't seem to be much performed (nothing on Operabase that I can find, at least). I've never actually heard it, although I've performed other things by Francesca, and I think she's a pretty amazing composer, at least the same stature as her father, if not better. Mak (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

True, I should. I have a tendency not to see past my own nose when writing, which is part of why I like Wikipedia :). I've been trying to write a couple "group" articles, for instance, Trobairitz and Concerto delle donne. I think it would be easier to write an article on a more specific group than "Singers over 200 years", but if a more specific group that needs an article occurs to you, I'd love to hear about it, and probably work on it. Cheers, Mak (talk) 21:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One more thing regarding Japanese naming

Have you read any English-language newspapers in Japan (e.g. of Japanese companies, e.g. Mainichi Shimbun)? If so, you notice that they almost exclusively use Western order. Here's an example: [2] WhisperToMe 00:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yakov Knyazhnin

Yakov Knyazhnin - a new entry. Thanks for your vote and your message. (meladina 13:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

Unfortunately there are two articles. I prefer the title without the patronymic, but either way there is quite a job merging the two! - Kleinzach 14:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I merged the content of the smaller article into the bigger one, but attempting to move them into one I had no success. I left the message to Girla and copied it at the Yakov Knyazhnin talk page. Let us wait how he will act. (meladina 15:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

I think, Girla finished his role and left the message: Yakov Knyazhnin is occupied by another article. You are welcome to merge them. --Ghirla -трёп- 15:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I tried to move it again, but was refused. We can just to eliminate the article Yakov Borisovich Knyazhnin. Please help. (meladina 15:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

The move is completed by Girla. The article needs just a simple cleaning. (meladina 16:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Spelling question

I created two enties Semyon Gulak-Artemovsky (this was developed from a stub) & Zaporozhets za Dunayem, however not sure about the spelling of the titles . Could you check, please with Grove? Yours, (meladina 18:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC))

They are OK. - Kleinzach 21:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing for Meladina

No problem at all. I've already done a couple that he left on the Composer's Project page, so I'm used to the oddities that crop up. One example that had me chuckling was a list of subordinate clauses split up with commas followed by verbs with no personal pronouns; which was a great idea but currently doesn't exist in English as yet. Cheers, Moreschi 13:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Der Freishütz

Are you saying that you consider Der Freishütz part of the popular repertory? - Nunh-huh 17:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me there should be some way of communicating the information of which operas are often performed, or seldom performed. Does the project have any categories or approved verbiage in which this information should be conveyed? - Nunh-huh 17:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opera houses intro

I've re-read the second sentence, and it still looks all right to me. Where do you propose that the word "not" should be moved to? --GuillaumeTell 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects

[3] It would be lovely if in instances like the one in this link you could create a redirect. The far right button in the editing screen gives the right way to link it, and you just create the page which has the "wrong" name and link it to the "right" name. It helps people find pages, and makes it less likely that duplicate articles will be created. It's a dull bit of housekeeping, but it can be really useful. Sorry I haven't been doing quite as much on the Opera pages, but I've lost my Grove subscription, and since I'm not at university any more it's harder to get to the library. Cheers, Mak (talk) 15:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup, it was the apostrophe that did it :) Sorry if it was redundant advice. Mak (talk) 16:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)