Talk:Kiss timeline

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Contents 1 complaints 2 Suggested changes 3 Ideas 4 Moved 5 revisions

[edit] complaints

Firstly, I'm not sure that List of important KISS dates is a proper title for the article, since what is "important" is a judgment call and inherently POV. Secondly, this list is clearly not a list of important dates, but rather, it's a list of practically every date that could possibly be noted. Can someone tell me what is "important" about Paul getting a tattoo on June 1, 1974?? Or that Variety magazine gave "a positive review" to the band on January 2? Come on! These things are only important to the most ultra-extreme rabid KISS fan. Thirdly, the list is extremely USA-centric, giving mostly American release dates. wikipediatrix 02:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps instead of lodging complaints, you can find ways to improve the article. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 13:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh, excuse me, but I think I just pointed out three ways the article could be improved, did I not?

It's a funny Wikipedia dynamic: if I make drastic sweeping changes to an article, there are always those who whine and complain that I should have talked about it on the discussion page first. But when I do, there are always those who say "instead of complaining, why don't you fix it yourself?"

Sooooo...... consider this my notice of intent to make drastic changes and fix the aforementioned problems soon, unless the consensus on this discussion page declares that yes, every piece of meaningless trivia is in fact an "important KISS date". wikipediatrix 15:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I didn't see any suggestions offered by you. Regarding the three points your initial posting mentioned: 1-You took issue with the title of the article, but didn't offer any suggestions for a new one. 2-You seem to feel the list is too inclusive, but offer no suggestions concerning a guideline for what should and shouldn't be included. Therefore I am left with the impression that you simply wish to impose your point of view as to what should be included. 3-You say the list is too US-centric, but didn't offer suggestions as to what other countries or cultures should be included. I made my original comment because everything you mentioned in your initial complaint list had to do with removing things from the article, which of course is always easier to do than adding to or improving an article. This is not to say that I don't think your complaints lack validity. The basis of the article (even though you didn't ask) was that someone added these dates to the main KISS article. I felt that a lot of the information was good and shouldn't be deleted, but that the main KISS article probably wasn't an appropriate place for it. So I created this article and moved the stuff here. If you look at the article history, you will see that I have whittled out stuff that was not really "important" by any stretch. But as I have focused my efforts on other articles, for the most part, this article has not been sufficiently addressed. So while I think it's great that you're willing to tackle that task, I took issue with what I perceived to be a hostile tone in your initial offering. I hope this clears things up. Oh, and in response to the items that you did mention specifically – I agree that the date that Paul got his tattoo can go, as can the date of the Variety review. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 16:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's hostile to point out that I think it's stupid to consider things like the day Paul got a tattoo to be "an important date" by any remote stretch of the imagination, then color me hostile. If I sounded critical of the article, it's because I am! And you're making zero sense: if I wanted to impose my own view on the article, I would have just gone ahead and edited it myself instead of bringing it to the discussion page first, now wouldn't I? Lastly, do you really need to be have it spelled out to you what other countries I meant besides the US? (ALL other countries where KISS has done anything, obviously.) wikipediatrix 03:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested changes

In the spirit of improving this article, and because I do happen to agree with the validity of some of wikipediatrix's initial comments, I'd like to get some ideas for article improvement. I think the easiest one would be the article title. I'm not married to the idea of calling the article "important KISS dates," as I do recognize the inherent POV issues. So what else can we use? KISS timeline? KISS history? Dates in KISS history? --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 16:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I definitely vote for KISS timeline....but then the article should be arranged in true chronological order... wikipediatrix 03:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, but this timeline is chaos to read and gather information from. First of all, it's done by month and only a hardline fan could possibly know what might have happened with the group month to month in each year, and quite frankly a person with that kind of knowledge wouldn't be needing the assistance of Wikipedia for information on KISS. I think it should be changed to a more traditions yearly format. Because I was taking a look at each month and entries weren't even in chronological order. There were listings for happening in the 90's followed by the 80's some 70's etc., etc. It's really confusing to read, which ultimately won't really help a person looking for information. And that is why Wikipedia is here. So instead of standing off over something as trivial as the title, why don't we set this to a less confusing format. This is here to educate, not to show off a single person's knowledge of this or that.psychodarity 1624, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed - see below. wikipediatrix 21:22, 28 July 2006 (CST)

I see. Is this going to happen anytime soon then?.psychodarity 1628, 28 July 2006 (CST)

Doubt it. LOL. Why not be WP:BOLD and take on the mission yourself? Go for it, here's the keys. wikipediatrix 21:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It is completely inappropriate to not have a chronological order available for those who don't like playing musical bullet-points. CERTAINLY, you cannot call it a "time-line" if it isn't in a LINE... I don't care enough about KISS to do anything about it, but I figure someone out there cares enough to not let this atrocity exist. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.80.225.196 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ideas

Well, I think that all the information should stay, but that maybe the title or the article should be changed to KISS Timeline or Dates in KISSTORY or something to that effect. Also, perhaps more of an effort should go in to putting international data as well, such as album release dates and important concerts/events. Darwin's Bulldog 20:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think KISS timeline sounds like a good candidate. Dates in KISStory sounds too much like something on a fan site. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 20:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I definitely don't agree that "all the information should stay", however, for the same reason: much of it just sounds very fannish. The info in the article breaks down pretty much into these categories:

Birthdays

Deaths

Album/DVD release dates

Show dates

Awards and honors

TV shows aired

Miscellaneous incidents.

Now, it seems to me that if we take this article to its logical conclusion, if we fill in the missing info started by this article's precedent, we are going to have a ridiculously long, unwieldy, and longer-than-Wikipedia-guidelines-prefer article. Some of these lists would be long enough to qualify for their own article, in fact. wikipediatrix 03:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps it would get too long, but I'm not so certain. Births and deaths won't take up much room, obviously. As for show dates, I would say the list of truly important KISS shows might get to about 20 or so? Another thing I was thinking is that it might be better to re-arrange the order so it goes by year rather than by month. I've always found the month-centric design a bit clunky, but haven't gotten around to changing it. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 22:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Depends on what one calls important. To me, opening and closing tour dates aren't as important as dates that have been famously bootlegged, and/or dates of special note like ones where Gene's hair caught on fire, Ace was electrocuted, Peter was sick and replaced by his roadie, etc. I think a list of notable performances such as these should perhaps fill an article of its own. Television appearances, live or taped, might also make a good separate list-article of its own. Examples of dates that I think aren't important include: DVD reissues of VHS products, Variety giving a good review, Paul getting a tattoo, Rock School's TV premiere, filming of the "Crazy Crazy Nights" video, debut of Tongue magazine, etc. And yeah, let's definitely put everything in actual chronological order. wikipediatrix 23:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• • I agree that the list should be chronological by year instead of the way it's formatted currently. Being ordered by year would make the list easier to digest, especially for someone who isn't familiar with the band. Darwin's Bulldog 23:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, this all sounds good. I'm away until Sunday, but will start putting together some ideas when I get back. In the meantime, I'd say that I agree wtih the items Wikipediatrix identified above as being unimportant. So let's whittle down what we have now, see what we're left with, and then add what we feel is necessary. I would say let's hold off on any new sub-articles until we have the new list done, and then see how much there is. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 02:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved

OK, per previous discussions, I've relocated this to "KISS timeline," in order to avoid any potential NPOV issues. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 22:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] revisions

OK, I've gone through and removed some items that probably don't need to be on the list. Next up is, I think, correcting some glaring mistakes on the list. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 00:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)