Talk:Kirpan

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Contents 1 Weapon uses 2 Copyright violations 2.1 Discussion at User:Melchoir Talk page 3 Kirpan in the US 4 Unsourced block quote 5 Sharpness of the blade 6 The Danish case 7 Defensive Weapon 8 Material

[edit] Weapon uses

In the plastic.com discussion of the Canada case, someone brought up the following links showing use of the Kirpan as a weapon; thus, I've changed this to say it's "rarely" used as a weapon rather than never. Even than might not be right since we don't actually have statistics showing how often kirpans are used as weapons.

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=170859 http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1374206 http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalCanada5.asp Ken Arromdee 15:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I think more clarity is needed. In the Indian murder case, was the kirpan mentioned in the murder case a small one (a blade of around 3 inches) like the ones allowed in Canadian schools? I seriously doubt it. It was probably much larger---more like a full-sized sword---way too large and dangerous to be carried legally in any public place in Canada.

As for the Yorkshire Post article---an old Sikh man took, but did not actually use a kirpan, when his family were attacked by robbers armed with guns. He would have to be a very strange man to think a small 3 inch blade would have been useful to him. In this case the kirpan was not used to attack anyone, so it's impossible to infer how large it was.

My point is that small kirpans, as lethal as the cutlery used daily by school children are allowed in Canadian schools. Larger ones are forbidden.

[edit] Copyright violations

Today text from several copyrighted online sources was pasted into the article. I have reverted back to the previous version. Melchoir 00:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not repost the material. Melchoir 01:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion at User:Melchoir Talk page

I see that you have reverted the article Kirpan without listing any quotes regarding the alleged copyright violation - (I thought that the official policy is to alert the user on the discussion page before reverting see Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes#First_step:_talk_to_the_other_parties_involved) please give the quotes before you revert the article in future so that it can be checked. (you have failed to give any material that I have used not being a quotation of regulation) It could be that the other party has used my text/article! - it not too difficult to do that, is it? --Hari Singh 00:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The sources are all listed in the page history. Melchoir 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• 1: Images: I will post 4 or 5 pictures of my own kirpan on this page to prove a point. May be then you will be convinced. Here's the first one. I will post the rest later. My pictures are released into the public domain - So if you find them elsewhere, it no breach of copyright. If you want me to post a few pictures of a kirpan, please let me know!!

• 2: Page History: The items that you have quoted are "Quotes" of the regulations in the UK – This is a technique which you find everywhere on Wikipedia, in papers, books, etc!! How can one show these regulations without quoting them? And quoting a small amount of anything for reviewing is allowed, isn't it?

Further, the Reht Maryada is also a regulation which has to be quoted and is set by the SGPC, the official Sikh Organisation.

Please look at this article: Igor_Stravinsky#Criticism which appears to have a few quotes - perhaps you should delete this article as well!! and then I can show you a few more such articles!!

Please be kind enough to explain the following abbreviated terms: "blank copyvio", reorder legal section and in fact, rv copyvio of http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm back to YEvb0; see talk

Look before you leap!! What really is your problem? I think your actions are completely unwarranted and unfair and a complete farce!! --Hari Singh 02:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

1: Thank you for the new pictures. They are higher-quality, better-looking and more informative than the usual fare that anyone could copy from internet sources, and that's just one reason why copying things into Wikipedia is discouraged. I am not sure what point you're trying to prove, though. By calling the above images the first of your own, are you admitting that the previous images are, in fact, copyright violations? (No, I am not admitting anything of that sort - all I am saying is that I have uploaded 1000s of pictures to the web and you will find them elsewhere - that does not mean a copyright breach, does it?)

2: If you are referring to this edit, the material I removed was more than a short quote. It is the entire content of the "Sikh Employees" section of the source, including two speakers and multiple paragraphs. I think you got this wrong - the first was quote from warwickshire police and the second was the discussion in parliament, each was less than 10 lines and they both quote the legal position regarding the wearing of the kirpan in the UK - which is what I am trying to inform the users about. Tell me how you would quote regulations of this sort?
Please see article:Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968 and by doing a google search I found: [1]
Almost the whole of the 4 sections are verbatim copies - doesn't this breach copyright?

Okay, I've seen Igor Stravinsky#Criticism. There are only short snippets, each no longer than a couple of sentences. Nothing is reproduced in its entirety.

"Copyvio" is short for "copyright violation", and "rv" is short for "revert". YEvb0 was the user whose version I reverted to. Thanks for the clarification

Let me assure you that I am not treating you unfairly. Sadly, getting rid of copyrighted material is a routine exercise on Wikipedia. It is not usually controversial. And if you'll give me a minute, I'll list the quotes that alerted me to the individual sources. Melchoir 02:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• For this edit, you provided the source yourself. It is a newspaper article, one of the worst things to copy, because people are actively making money from it. At the bottom of the page, the source says "Copyright 1995-2000. The Cincinnati Enquirer" When posting the article the second time, I left out this section - you still rv'ed the article? Why? As this did not apply, did it

• For this edit, I have already stated my reasons. Don't forget to check out the copyright used, which does not permit commerical redistribution. Since Wikipedia does permit commercial redistribution, we cannot copy such material. I think you are wrong here - the passage that I have quoted is a small section of that days business and no permission is required for the purposes of the point being made here - which to inform everyone working for the UK government about the rules governing the kirpan - I think that is very important point to make and the best way is to quote the discussion so that there is no doubt. 'How else do you think this point can be made?

• For this edit, I Googled the phrase "anyone to carry a blade exceeding the length" and came up with the source, which is another newspaper article, saying "Copyright © 2005 Khalsa Press, All rights reserved." This search gives 169,000 results because it is part of a regulation and again I changed the wording on the second version. You still rv'ed this edition - please explain?

• For this edit, you provided the source, which says "© Warwickshire Police 2003". see fair-use and "quotation of regulation" quoted by me elswhere

• Finally, the last straw was when I saw that only one new section of writing remained. I Googled "weapon is both incorrect and misleading" and came up with the source, which claims copyright Sandeep Singh Crar, All Rights Reserved. This section was changed on the second edition - you still rv'ed it - so what was the reason the second time?

This combination of theft and plagiarism is unacceptable. If it had appeared in a new article, it would have earned a {{db-copyvio}} tag and been deleted long ago. As it is, there is a clean version of the article, so I restored it. And that brings us to the present. Melchoir 02:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC) this statement is utterly wrong - I have not gained anything in setting up this article. Further, this article has GFDL status (Sikhiwiki) and you should not be questioning its status as such - Also, the only beneficiary from this article would be Sikhism and I am sure that all Sikhism site would have no objections to their material being used to promote this religion. The proof of this is Sikhiwiki where no complaint has been received about any of the point that you have raised from any party ever!. See sikhiwiki.org

Below is a section from Wikipedia regarding use of material for quotation:

What's copyrighted? Copyright exists automatically upon creation in a tangible form. An author does not need to apply for or even claim copyright for a copyright to exist. Only an explicit statement that the material is in the public domain, licensed with the GFDL, or is otherwise compatible with the GFDL, makes material reusable under current policy, unless it is inherently in the public domain due to age or source.

What about fair use? Under fair use guideline, brief selections of copyrighted text may be used, but only with full attribution and only when the purpose is to comment on or criticize the text quoted.

Clearly, "fair use" allows one to use material to support or criticise a point being made. To show that the kirpan can be worn in any country, one need to quote the

• regulation or
• the "official source",

which is what I have done.

I think your attitude is incorrect and unfair and misuse of this site? I am not happy with your decision and wish to take this further. In the meantime I will be posting a basic version of the article again without the points that you have mentioned above or amended. I would appreciate if you discuss any changes before you make them - as mention at Resolving_disputes

I think you are deliberately picking on my religion and this article. --Hari Singh 04:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I've replied at my own talk page, where this discussion actually took place. I don't need to be attacked here like this. This article is now off my watchlist, so do what you will with it. It's an incoherent chimera made of thinly paraphrased, argumentative, POV quotations and undue attention to insignificant details. I can only hope that someone spiritually acceptable will be allowed to clean it all up. Good luck! Melchoir 05:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kirpan in the US

What's the US policy on Kirpans in schools? I heard of a case similar to the one in Canada happening in the US, but don't know anything else about it.

I believe that at present the matter is dealt with on a state by state basic. However, in a case last year, of Sukhpreet Singh at Wayne State University who was arrested on August 24, 2005 at a hearing in December, 2005 was aquitted of all charges. See rediff.com and www.unitedsikhs.orgfor more information. --Hari Singh 13:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced block quote

When questioned on the official policy of the Foreign Office on the wearing of the kirpan by Sikh employees, the official response was:

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office's (FCO) commitment not to discriminate unfairly on the grounds of religion or belief is set out clearly in our equal opportunities policy. This states: "All FCO staff are entitled to be treated with respect. No staff should be exposed to unfair discrimination, including harassment, bullying or victimisation on any grounds, particularly gender, family status, race, disability, religion, faith or sexual orientation."^{[citation needed]}

[edit] Sharpness of the blade

The recent case in Canada of the Supreme Court ruling that Kirpans can be worn to school has brought up discussion regarding whether or not the Kirpan needs to be sharp, or if it can be dull and still serve the same ceremonial and religious purposes. Could we have this clarified in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adc fortytwo (talk • contribs). 3 March 2006

I came to the talk page to ask exactly the same question. Are most Kirpans dull, or are many kept sharp? -postglock 06:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Danish case

Hello. Could whoever posted the extracts from the judgment of the recent Danish case let me know where they found those quotations? I'm a student of human rights law and it would be tremendously useful if I could read the case. Thanks.

[edit] Defensive Weapon

...as used in the article, is a nonsense. There's no such thing. I would grant you "ornamental weapon" as it's clearly ornamented, but the difference between a, so called, defensive weapon and an offensive weapon is intent. However, intent cannot be bestowed on an inanimate object. The whole "Defensive Weapon" article should be wiped: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_weapon as proselytizing for the gun lobby rather than presenting fact, so you can leave that argument out.

You could easily add "intended as a" to be accurate. Zaelath 06:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Material

Question: is there any rule about what material the kirpan must be made of? Does it have to be metal? If there are no specific rules, then perhaps it could be made of cardboard or cloth. That way it would pass through metal detectors and would certainly be allowed by any security guard with even a tiny bit of common sense. Zsero 16:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)