Talk:Kirov class battlecruiser

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It is argued that Kirov is not a battle cruiser because it lacks the characteristic heavy armor of battlecruisers. That makes absolutly no sense as the defining characteristics of a battlecruiser is that it is not as armored as a battleship. Battle cruisers are in general not smaller than battleships (e.g. compare Hood and Bismarck - Hood was actually longer and equally large). The original idea behind the battlecruiser concept was to built a ship which is more powerful than a cruiser in order to hunt cruisers and much faster than a battleship in order to escape the slower and more heavier armored battleships. The Russians refer to these ships as cruisers simply because their operational function is more similar to those of a cruiser simply because the battleship against battleship and battlecruiser against battlecruiser fights of world war two are long gone.

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I think this article really should be moved to 'Kirov class battlecruiser' as it seems to be more of a discussion of the class as a whole, and then a new article created for the individual vessels. Thoughts? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 01:14, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

This article, Kirov class battlecruiser, acurately describes the class as a whole.

Soviet battlecruiser Kirov accurately describes the Kirov.

While both entries could be improved, they both accomplish the desired purpose. --Jsolinsky 19:51, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You should look at the datestamps. I made that comment and then later separated out the two articles. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:54, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

In the first part of the article, it seems unlikely that the Iowa class battleship was returned to service to combat the Kirov class ship. During the end of the cold war, it was general knowledge that a "ship on ship" battle should never occur (a fact that was first shown during the Battle of the Coral Sea WWII). Missiles, subs, and/or aircraft would be the most likely methods of defeating the Kirov. The Iowa's 16" guns would be a last resort/defense. The Iowa class was returned to service for naval gunfire support (it did fire TOMAHAWK missiles from box launchers ABL, but this was an auxillary task since VLS and TTL is the primary method for TOMAHAWK).

The Iowas were indeed returned to service in response to the introduction of the Kirov, but it was more a matter of prestiege than combat effectiveness; the U.S. Navy didn't want to let the Soviets have a warship that was bigger and more powerful than anything it had, so it brought back the Iowas with secondary missile armament added.

Sorry, I still don't buy it. The Kirov was smaller than the supercarriers, so national pride seems served by the Nimitz, which was several years earlier and much larger. Maury 22:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Displaced tonnage is all well and good, but I'd be willing to bet that a battery of 16 inch rifles still makes a more up-front impression. Some folks just don't mentally connect "Aircraft Carrier" with "Raw Unprocessed Whupass" while "Battlecruiser" and "Battleship" can both carry that connotation, whether or not it's deserved in relation to the Aircraft Carrier or not.--Raguleader 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I can speculate all sorts of reasons myself, but that doesn't help. I find the claim difficult to believe, and without a ref I consider it to be suspect. Maury 13:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough. If someone can find a legit source making the claim, it can be used for the article.--Raguleader 06:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pennant numbers

If I have deciphered this Chinese website correctly, the ships have carried the following pennant numbers

• Kirov/Ushakov: 076 (1980), 181 (1981), 065 (1981), 076 (1982), 052 (1985), 085 (1985), 065 (1988), 092 (1990), 059 (1990), 090 (1993)
• Frunz/Lazarev: 190 (1984), 050 (1985), 750 (1985), 028 (1986), 014 (1987), 010 (1991), 015 (1994)
• Kalinin/Nakhimov: 180 (1988), 064 (1989), 085 (1990), 080 (1994)
• Yuri Andropov/Pyotr Velikiy: 183 and possibly 099

All very confusing. Was this constant redesignation of warships normal Soviet practice? Bastie 10:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, some other navies change pennant numbers too. By the way, the picture in the page is of Frunze (aka Lazarev), not Kirov. --Mikoyan21 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orlan class, not Kirov class

This ship class is called the Orlan class, not Kirov class. NATO perhaps thought it was Kirov because the lead ship of the class was called the Kirov? I oppose en-Wikipedia's habit in naming articles about Soviet Union's ship classes after their NATO callsigns etc. even though they have their original, official class names as well! I understand that many of us have originally heard of Soviet military hardware via NATO sources, calling them Typhoon, Kirov, Akula, Fulcrum and so on, but is there any reason keep on calling them with those names? Also, the en-Wikipedia is the biggest language version of Wikipedia and considered the reference for others. It should be neutral about these issues, not representing some USA-centered NATO view of things exhibiting NATO military slang. 213.243.160.111 07:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag in info box?

So, does the big flag in the infobox for ship classes generally refer to whichever navy was the primary user of the ships in question, or just the first one to deploy them? I'm just wondering if there's some standard for why it would be the Soviet flag that is displayed here and not the Russian flag (If we normally show the flag of whoever deployed the ships first, or whoever deployed the most ships of the class, I guess using the Soviet flag would make sense).--Raguleader 04:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)