Talk:Kirkland & Ellis
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[edit] Diversity award
One user keeps deleting relevant, factual and verifiable information about this organization -- a large portion of which comes directly from the organization's website. These changes make the article less interesting, insightful and relevant.
What is the possible objection to information about the firm's Diversity Fellowship Program, which comes directly from the firm's website? This article is only highlighting what the firm itself brags about on its website.
With respect to the deleted paragraph about the American Lawyer Magazine's reporting on the firm's generally low associate satisfaction (highly relevant information for law students and potential lateral hires) this information only rounds out what would otherwise be a glowing profile of the firm. There are two sides to the story -- how the firm is perceived from the outside and how's its perceived by its associates. Moreover, this information is factual and verifiable. This is not one user's opinion.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean you should delete it. Add context if you feel it's appropriate.
NOT NPOV posting - Someone deleted a simple sentence explaining that white people are not eligible to apply to Kirkland's Diversity Fellowship Program and suggested this sentence was a violation of NPOV in the history page. This person needs to review the Wikipedia NPOV policy. The fact that white people are not eligable for the program is not an opinion; it is a fact, verifiable by the link to Kirkland's website. It's not even a close case.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.23.177.58 (talk)
- While I haven't been removing it, it definitely seems NPOV to indicate that "whites may not apply," casting the program in a negative light. If the program explicitly sets itself forth in that manner, it may be one thing (is there a citation to that?); but if that's merely a by-product of having the program, then it seems to cast undue weight or draw attention to the program in a negative light, regardless of one's perspective on diversity. Zz414 15:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- The posting is completely POV, or alternatively, it is duplicative of the previous sentence. I agree with Zz414 - if you can cite to language on the website or other K&E source directly stating the restriction, then cite that source. #68.49.218.127 16:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I invite you two to reread the Wikipedia NPOV policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV It does not require that articles be devoid of "negative inferences" as Zz414 wrongly asserts. According to the policy, "Facts (as defined in the A simple formulation section above) are not Points Of View." The NPOV policy explains: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By 'fact' we mean 'a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute.'" That white people are not eligible for these fellowships is undeniably a fact. They either are eligible; or they are not. I do not assert whether this is a bad thing or a good thing. You assume this casts the firm in a negative light, but that is your assumption based on your experience or reasoning. The article does not draw any inferences, as it was written. However, note that it would not be a violation of the policy to state that some legal bloggers believe this is a violation of federal law. That is also a fact. You also claim that single sentence violates the "undue weight" prong of the NPOV policy. But that prong is aimed at curtailing the assertion of fringe theories on a given matter. The policy explains: "In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." This prong of the NPOV policy allies to views and is not applicable to the fact that whites are not eligible for these fellowships. To avoid any accusations of bias, I'm content to exclude views (vs. facts) from the subsection on the diversity fellowship program. But I note that the NPOV policy does not even prohibit the expression of views; it only "requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. . . . As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." In other words, the goal is to present both sides, not to witewash articles to remove all negative inferences, as you believe. Accordingly, it would be entirely appropriate to write in the article, as I did in an earlier version, "the legality of the program has been questioned by legal bloggers." That is a fact, not an opinion. (The policy states what should be obvious to students of English: "Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone.") The other side of the argument, which is already reflected in the article, is that Kirkland is being generous with its money by awarding fellowships to racial and ethnic minorities at numerous law schools. 68.23.177.58 04:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- There are a series of elements of NPOV that are at play here--Fairness of Tone and "Let the facts speak for themselves." The fact is that there's a scholarship for minorities. If you can find a statement that sais "Whites may not apply," then I've admitted that it's probably acceptable, given that's how Kirkland & Ellis has presented the program. If that's merely an implication, then it would be (a) a concern of the "fairness of tone," which, while perhaps "accurate," is meant to excite people to oppose the scholarship (e.g., elicit a reaction of "I can't believe they're discriminating against whites!"); and (b) let the facts speak for themselves (e.g., you don't need to say that Saddam Hussein was evil). If, however, there's a citation of someone criticizing the scholarship as "whites need not apply," that would probably be acceptable, with a proper source for that criticism. Zz414 15:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- One more thoughts--it's not entirely clear that someone who's not at least partially white may not apply; that is, the scholarship details suggest that someone who's biracial may in fact be eligible. That's what makes a citation extremely important for this statement. Zz414 15:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- I invite you two to reread the Wikipedia NPOV policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV It does not require that articles be devoid of "negative inferences" as Zz414 wrongly asserts. According to the policy, "Facts (as defined in the A simple formulation section above) are not Points Of View." The NPOV policy explains: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By 'fact' we mean 'a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute.'" That white people are not eligible for these fellowships is undeniably a fact. They either are eligible; or they are not. I do not assert whether this is a bad thing or a good thing. You assume this casts the firm in a negative light, but that is your assumption based on your experience or reasoning. The article does not draw any inferences, as it was written. However, note that it would not be a violation of the policy to state that some legal bloggers believe this is a violation of federal law. That is also a fact. You also claim that single sentence violates the "undue weight" prong of the NPOV policy. But that prong is aimed at curtailing the assertion of fringe theories on a given matter. The policy explains: "In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." This prong of the NPOV policy allies to views and is not applicable to the fact that whites are not eligible for these fellowships. To avoid any accusations of bias, I'm content to exclude views (vs. facts) from the subsection on the diversity fellowship program. But I note that the NPOV policy does not even prohibit the expression of views; it only "requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. . . . As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." In other words, the goal is to present both sides, not to witewash articles to remove all negative inferences, as you believe. Accordingly, it would be entirely appropriate to write in the article, as I did in an earlier version, "the legality of the program has been questioned by legal bloggers." That is a fact, not an opinion. (The policy states what should be obvious to students of English: "Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone.") The other side of the argument, which is already reflected in the article, is that Kirkland is being generous with its money by awarding fellowships to racial and ethnic minorities at numerous law schools. 68.23.177.58 04:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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- It's hard to take your narrow criticisms seriously when you can't even be troubled to proofread and spell check your posts. Nevertheless, I will revise the article as you suggested to simply cite those criticizing the scholarship for excepting whites. You say that would "probably" be acceptable. You don't seem very sure of yourself when it comes to these rules. I sincerely hope you don't raise an objection ex post to this edit after sanctioning it ex ante. On your last point, one who is biracial, is not white. I would have thought that was obvious. --68.23.177.58 16:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry that I don't have the abundant time that you apparently have. I said "probably" because it would depend upon the source of the citation (e.g., random blog v. New York Times op/ed). Someone who is biracial would probably still qualify as "African-American" and "white" under the same scheme of classifications, so it's not "obvious." Zz414 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Please apologize below for your ad hominem attack on me. I was critical of the quality of your writing in the interest of upholding Wikipedia's high standards. Your suggestion that I have too much free time is not relevant or appropriate and is an uncivil ad hominem attack. IF the program considers biracial people to be "diverse" (which is anyone's guess absent further information), that STILL excludes 75% of the U.S. population who are 100% white (not bi or multi racial) (according to the 2000 census). --68.23.177.58 17:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry that I don't have the abundant time that you apparently have. I said "probably" because it would depend upon the source of the citation (e.g., random blog v. New York Times op/ed). Someone who is biracial would probably still qualify as "African-American" and "white" under the same scheme of classifications, so it's not "obvious." Zz414 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's hard to take your narrow criticisms seriously when you can't even be troubled to proofread and spell check your posts. Nevertheless, I will revise the article as you suggested to simply cite those criticizing the scholarship for excepting whites. You say that would "probably" be acceptable. You don't seem very sure of yourself when it comes to these rules. I sincerely hope you don't raise an objection ex post to this edit after sanctioning it ex ante. On your last point, one who is biracial, is not white. I would have thought that was obvious. --68.23.177.58 16:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Whatever one thinks about the diversity fellowship, is it really one of the most important facts about this organization deserving of the prominence it gets in this article? --68.23.96.248 14:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dorothy Roberts
What is the objection to mentioning Dorothy Roberts's book? If the other professors had authored interesting books, let's mention them as well. In the dust jacket of her book (see link in prior version of article) she describes herself as a radical black feminist. That was not my characterization; I am merely reporting facts. --68.23.177.58 16:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Need more on historical lawyers
This is a suprisingly good article, but focus is too much on the recent past. It would round out the article to have more information on some of the other significant lawyers and cases that the firm has handled.
