User talk:Kingbotk/Plugin

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Kingbotk Plugin for AWB
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Please leave comments about my plugin here. General queries about my bot, complaints, thanks and what have you should be sent to my talk page. --kingboyk 12:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] {{WikiProjectBannerShell}}

Another template you should be aware of wrt nested templates.

I think you're idea of "self-identifying" project banners is a good one. Alternatively, a category of WikiProject banners would make them easy to find. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Having said that, there is one: Category:WikiProject banners. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
That would require parsing the category though.
Anyrode, I'll be thinking about this for version 2. --kingboyk 10:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Release

Version 1.0.0 alpha (release candidate 1) is now available for download. As myself and Reedy Boy are now registered as AWB developers too, the plugin is shipped with AWB. Download. Feedback is welcome! --kingboyk 09:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I downloaded the new version and extracted it into my AWB folder, but I get an error when I start up AWB now. It says: "Unable to load one or more of the requested types. Retrieve the LoaderExceptions property for more information." The "Plugins" menu item does not appear, but the rest of AWB seems to work fine. Am I doing something wrong? Using Windows XP Home Edition, if that makes a difference. Jwillbur 18:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
You need both WikiFunctions2.dll and Kingbotk AWB Plugin.dll in your AWB Directory. Reedy Boy 19:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, that worked. Thanks - Jwillbur 23:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it working OK for you? I see you're doing assessments - are you finding the tool to be a help? --kingboyk 23:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it works now, I just hadn't copied the dll's to the root AWB directory at first. It is very helpful, thanks for all the hard work. Jwillbur 00:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WPBiography

Somebody created a redirect {{WikiProject Biography}} without telling me, which may have resulted in one or two double taggings on behalf of WPBio. I've done a run fixing transclusions of that template call and have updated the regular expression in the plugin. It will be released with the next AWB. Shouldn't be any major concern to anybody but please exercise caution with WPBio until I get the new plugin released. --kingboyk 11:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC) (PS: It may be a good idea to check the templates for your WikiProjects, and advise me of any other new redirects, parameters, or logic changes).

[edit] Albums plugin problem

The plugin qualify some valid album template instances as "bad". For example:

{{album
|class=stub
|auto=no
|attention=no
|needs-infobox=no
|importance=low
|}}

Jogers (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That's bad because it has a | at the end with no parameter. --kingboyk 20:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to use "skip bad" option as you suggested anyway. Jogers (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Novels support

Thanks for you help - I will endevour to put on the "auto" parameter and not set up but the next "task forces" could well be, "military-task-force=yes", "young-adult-task-force=yes", "fantasy-task-force=yes" & "russian-task-force=yes". Thanks for your assistance on this. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice new version - including "NovelsWikiProject" support - I notice though still no support for the other "task forces" mentioned, but more importantly no support for the "needs-infobox-cover" (settings = "yes" or "1st") or "incomp-infobox" (settings = "yes") yet. Thanks for the work so far!. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 10:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Does it work OK? Reedy Boy started it, but I ripped a lot of the code out and started again as he'd copied the rather more complicated WPBiography code for much of it.
The infobox params are in the context menu of the text box. Sam did put them onto the main plugin tab, but I removed them - under what circumstances would you be wanting to tag those with a bot? Since we only read the talk page at present I'm not sure how a bot could make use of these?
I didn't add the workgroups as you weren't concrete in your plans. If you're ready to go with those just say the word :) --kingboyk 10:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it runs fine so far - not had too much time with it. Sorry for placing the comment above in the wrong place. Not problem about the pending Task Forces/ Workgroup , just hope that you are available when/if they get the go ahead. On the other point - I am tending to use the plugin in manual review mode mostly so these would be useful ways to save lots of keying which typically I now have to do "after" the "AssessmentForm" responses are OKed. It maybe I am suggesting taking the plugin where it hasn't gone yet! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 10:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah I see. Let me take a look and I'll see if I can offer any suggestions or find any way of improving things. Brb. --kingboyk 10:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
needs-infobox-cover - is that your eqivalent of needs-photo? i.e. If you assess an article and click "Needs photo", the plugin should add needs-infobox-cover=yes? What does needs-infobox-cover=1st mean? --kingboyk 11:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Close, however it is conceivable that other photos may be requested (but that is a minor issue. the main one is that on many occasions a undesirable later edition cover is present and we need to indicate the a "1st" edition cover is what should be sought out and used. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, you'll have to help me out a bit here :) The architecture of the plugin is that it's designed actually as a set of plugins. Each plugin is built on an object called PluginBase which contains common functionality and placeholders for customised functionality which every templating plugin must implement. In assessments, the user selects certain parameters (as you know) and these are sent to each active plugin so that it can add/amend the template it owns. So, adding something like "first edition cover" needed would add quite a lot of complexity because yours is the only template which supports it. Ideally, we need to settle on one parameter/value which the Novels plugin would add when it's told that a photo is needed.
Ok, I can see two ways to deal with this one (allow "photo request" to check the image infobox parameter to see is "image:" is present and if not add with the ="yes" setting or if present add the "=1st") or two add support for these options to the "you right click in that box you get a menu, with Insert Tag" idea you mention below and have these two options addable at that point. I think that might be a cleaner solution and might be easier for you to code. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Both are fairly easy to do. We explode each template into a template name and a collection of parameters/values, so it's easy enough to check existing values. I'll see what I can come up with. --kingboyk 13:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I may even prefer the second option as it leaves (photo req) alone for standard use. Also it leaves the control in the operators hands. Bot, mode might benefit from the first approach though, I'll bow to you superior wisdom on this though. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
So, you need to help me with the logic. What exactly do you want the Novels Plugin to do when the Assessments Manager tells it a photo is requested? Also, do you want {{reqphoto}} templates replaced with a parameter? --kingboyk 12:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, may I suggest that {{Novelinfoboxneeded}} and {{Novelinfoboxincomp}} be deprecated? Better still, merge them into {{NovelsWikiProject}} and delete? (We can have a bot do it if there are many uses). Having a template and a template parm doing the same thing mean having to write extra logic.
Agreed, I was trying to replace these as rapidly as possible with the "param" version. Full support for these in the plugin would assist in this process and I would aim to make the switch fairly quickly after such automation was available. I would expect no support for {{Novelinfoboxneeded}} and {{Novelinfoboxincomp}} in the plugin although an automated replacement would be a nice to have! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll write some regular expressions and code to have the plugin replace those templates with parameters. I'll also replace the context form insertion with parameters instead of template calls. --kingboyk 12:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Finally, when assessing, once you've selected the grade and clicked OK, you get the talk page in the normal AWB window, right? At the bottom right of the screen is an editable textbox containing the talk page text. If you right click in that box you get a menu, with Insert Tag and other options. Underneath Insert Tag is a Novels menu. (Currently it inserts the old templates, I'll modify it to insert needs-infobox-cover= and so on). --kingboyk 11:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ideal, how did I miss this functionality, must be dense I suppose!. Yes, to the proposal you mention above. 12:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
No comment! ;) --kingboyk 13:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC) (in fairness, it seems most people miss this...)

Alright, I propose to do this:

  • If the user assesses that a photo is needed, add a needs-infobox-cover=yes if not already present
  • Replace any unparameterised {{reqphoto}} with needs-infobox-cover=yes
  • Convert {{Novelinfoboxincomp}} to incomp-infobox=yes
  • Convert {{Novelinfoboxneeded}} to needs-infobox=yes
  • Add needs-infobox-cover=yes, needs-infobox-cover=1st, incomp-infobox=yes and needs-infobox=yes to the context (right click) menu.

Let me know pronto if any of this doesn't meet your requirements as I'll try to get it done this afternoon. --kingboyk 13:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds Ok to me thanks. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've done and am testing the above. I'll look at the other issues afterwards.
Do you want your template parameters seperated by newlines (like this) or do you want them all on one line? --kingboyk 18:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

All done. I've uploaded it to the AWB repository and it should ship with the next minor release of AWB. --kingboyk 20:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major change in Version 1 RC3

I'm currently working on release candidate 3 of version 1, which includes various bug fixes and tweaks, as well as support for WikiProject Novels.

I've discovered that the plugin is rejecting some valid instances of {{WPBiography}}. This is because since the plugin was written, the project has added a parameter which can have a space in it's value. Checking {{WPMILHIST}}, I see too they now have parameters which might contain spaces.

Since the regular expressions are at the very heart of the program, and their robustness is well proven by the lack of complaints about the plugin, I'm very reluctant to change them. However, I do think that the best way to deal with this is to change the basic regex pattern I use for all templates.

In prior versions, template parameters were caught with the following regex capture group:

(?<val>[^}{|\s\n\r]*)

I will be removing the space from the excluded characters, so that it becomes:

(?<val>[^}{|\n\r]*)

With quite a few other tweaks and changes in this version I strongly recommend running some extensive manual tests before letting it loose with a bot. --kingboyk 14:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessments with plugin

Response to my talk page question - yes it appears to be working fine. The edit summary was a trick I missed and I have removed the text to allow the "automatic" to work 'as is'. thanks :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What buttons did you press [[1]]? The summary says Unassessed class - did you type Stub in manually or use the checkbox on the popup assessment form? --kingboyk 14:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither, if I remember correctly I left the AssessmentFrom blank for the Class to test the "auto" assigning of the "Stub from the main article, which does get assigned. Is this wrong? the Novels tab has the "Auto-Stub", Stub-Class", "Crime" selected. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. Auto=yes should be disabled in non-bot mode, I'll have to fix that. As for how you're using it, it wasn't really designed that way and I'd have to test what happens. The idea I suppose is that you're tagging as Stub by default but changing it to a better class if you feel it deserves it? As I said, I didn't expect anybody to use it like that so some testing is in order :) --kingboyk 15:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually the other templates don't disable it, and it would be too much hassle to fix right now. I'll look at the edit summary and any remaining issues after dinner. --kingboyk 19:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Also when "Class" and "Importance" tag pre-exist and are OK but you want to allow the page through to auto populate the Task force, pressing "OK" the fuctionality is fine but the "edit summary" claims it as a "Unassessmed" see. Talk:Black and Blue (novel) which I have just don that way. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 15:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, because the edit summary is built from what you click on the popup form. As above - I'll look into this. --kingboyk 15:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've changed it to only display the class in the edit summary if the user selected a class on the popup form. --kingboyk 20:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
All seems to be working fine - for me. That is in non-bot mode. I dont' have acess to a bot enabled account to try that one out. SO I suppose it will have to wait. Thanks. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 15:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
You've still got "Tagging" in your edit summary :) Perhaps I should put some code into place to prevent that? --kingboyk 16:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Oops, forgot - :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 16:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor bug in albums plugin

I've been notified of incorrect behavior of the plugin at User talk:Jogersbot#Minor error. I don't expect substituted {{album}} template instances to be very common but if there was some easy workaround to this issue it would be nice. Jogers (talk) 11:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Not a bug, the templates shouldn't be subst'd and rarely are. I think a workaround would be too complicated with too little return (my bot has tagged over 200,000 times and this hasn't come up before as far as I can recall). --kingboyk 11:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New version

Hi guys, I am unable to figure out how to work the plugin in the latest version of AWB. The instructions here seem to be out of date as the new version has a completely different format. Can someone guide me on how to go about using the plugin... Thanks — Lost(talk) 19:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you be a little more specific? Doesn't the plugin load at all or is the problem related to the settings? Valentinian T / C 19:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Should be fairly simple. Just move or copy the two .dll files from the kingbotk folder to the main AWB folder, and proceed as normal. If that doesn't work please post back with more detail. --kingboyk 20:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, when I put on the AWB, a popup message tells me Problem loading plugin - Unable to load one or more of the requested types. Retrieve the LoaderException property for more information. Once I click on the pop up, another pop up comes up saying Please re-save this settings file to use the new settings format — Lost(talk) 22:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Copy both DLL files! That error means you only copied one.
The second message comes from AWB and needs to be obeyed, because the settings file format changed. Just save the settings again and all should be well. --kingboyk 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey it worked! Thanks a lot — Lost(talk) 23:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another problem

With the previous version of AWB, whenever I wanted to make a list for wikiproject tagging from categories, I would do the following:

  • Type the category name in the search box and generate list
  • Sort alphabetically, select categories, and through right click, populate from the selected categories
  • Again sort alphabetically and repeat search.

This way, the category and all its subcategories would be populated in my list and there would be no repetition. But in the current version, I am getting repetition. Every time I search on the subcategories, a duplicate list appears. Solution please? — Lost(talk) 23:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe its possible to right click the list and filter through all namespaces as well as filter duplicates. RHB Talk - Edits 23:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Aah ok... Looks like that option has been recently added. Thanks — Lost(talk) 23:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Might be worth reporting at the AWB page though. --kingboyk 00:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't help noticing that many of the pages you're tagging for WikiProject Protected areas of India also have a {{Messagebox protected areas}} on them (example). Do you think it would be a good idea to have your WikiProject Protected areas of India group be connected with, and advertise, WikiProject Protected Areas? Then, we can code the plugin to replace any {{Messagebox protected areas}} on a page which also has {{WP India}} with a protected-areas=yes parameter. I'm not just not too keen on multiple tagging where it can be avoided as it's starting to get out of hand. --kingboyk 00:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes thats a good idea. Infact there are other similar subprojects where we could do a similar thing. But as you can make out, I am not a technical person, so if you want, I can give you a list of such India related projects which are also descendent projects of other larger projects and we can work out this option for them — Lost(talk) 09:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Version 1.0.0.1 rc5 17 March 2007

Not sure this is working correctly - I have just download this one and tried it and I start by getting errors like "Unable to cast object of type 'System.Windows.Forms.Button' to type 'System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox' when I select a settings file (note. it is a settings file created by 'this' version)". From then on other errors appear and the talk pages fail to load and the assessment form fails to appear. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yikes. Don't like the sound of that! Will investigate, could you email me the settings file please? You might need to zip it up first. I've just sent you an email so u have my address. --kingboyk 11:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
sent as requested :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks like there was a small change in AWB I didn't know about. I've just built and emailed a new version to you which should be OK. Please report back. HTH. --kingboyk 12:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Appears to have fixed the problem - will proceed with caution. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Well that was only a cosmetic issue, not a flaw in the regular expressions or anything serious (basically, a button was added to AWB in an area where (through a hack) I latch onto checkboxes. I've made it more robust by having the code check that each object in the loop actually is a checkbox before trying to use it like one. Really nothing to worry about.
WRT to testing the new novels plugin, a test of each parameter over a random sampling of 100 or so pages really ought to be enough. The plugin is built on the same base code as all the others, and that basic code is obviously sound given the absence of complaints! Worry ye not, in other words. --kingboyk 14:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logging bug

I've observed that when a job finishes and the plugin asks if it should upload the logs, a second near-empty log page gets deleted. I'll try and fix this before the next release.

If you get such pages and you're an admin, please delete them. If you're not an admin, tag the faulty page for user-requested speedy deletion using {{db-user}}. --kingboyk 10:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely you mean that instead of "a second near-empty log page gets deleted", a "a subsequent near-empty log page gets created". The only content of which is a "Page prior|current page" header and then a "plugin version" and "AWB version" legend. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's it. --kingboyk 13:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Notes to self: use notifyicon instead of upload form when AWB ius minimised or minimised to tray. Consider impact of short AWB nudge timer on log upload process.
Log upload caught in a loop on current svn/AWB svn, adding log entry multiple times until I killed process: I don't recall changing any logging code? did Sam? did something else cause a breakage? or an issue with new AWB?
Need to add bad tags log upload. --kingboyk 14:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
No looping with current builds on last run. Will keep an eye on this with subsequent test runs (I have plenty of tagging queued up).
The extra-log-page at upload time I think I have identified the problem. Found some suspect code when hitting that code block in the debugger; skipping it resulted in this and only this log being created. Will test further but expect a fix in the next version. --kingboyk 16:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. Thought I'd fixed it but still having problems. This issue is a right pain in the arse! --kingboyk 19:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Rather ironically, it seems it was the "make my life easier by having the nudge in AWB" change that broke the logging to cause this new problem! AWB was resuming operations whilst logs were still uploading; the plugin received new article text, saw that it had exceeded its "lines to write to log before upload" quota, and started a new upload, potentially in an infinite loop.

I've added some code to AWB to have it ask plugins before nudging; kingbotk plugin denies permission to nudge whilst it's busy with logging. Old issue of extra log page was certainly solved by my earlier bug fix. Fingers crossed anyway, but so far so good in testing. --kingboyk 21:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

just a thought on "bad tag" the ONLY ones we have had are those with "<!-- -->" style comments between parameters. Is it possible for the Plugin to "handle" these and thus not see them as "bad". :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The regular expression change since version 1 (#Major_change_in_Version_1_RC3) should have altered that behaviour. The only characters not allowed in parameters now are line breaks. Your logs say you're using Plugin version 1.0.0.1, so you're up to date - could you check your recent "bad tag" logs for me and confirm whether this is still happening? --kingboyk 16:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talkheader and skiptotoctalk templates

Currently, if the plugin has added or moved a template to the top of a talk page, it then checks for {{talkheader}} and {{skiptotoctalk}} and moves them to the top. However, if it's simply modified a template in situ it doesn't do this.

Result: if a page has a talkheader below a WikiProject template, like this, and we then just modify the WikiProject template, we don't move anything.

Should we retain this behaviour, or always run a check/move operation for talkheaders?

  • Status quo - Every operation which involves searching for text and moving it risks introducing errors, including moving stuff that folks don't want moving. Also, we're under no obligation to fix problems introduced by others.
  • Change - if it's felt that edits like this are a problem.

I'm inclined to leave it, although I was at first puzzled to see that diff until I worked out the logical process and remembered why I'd coded that way. --kingboyk 19:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Novels Plugin etc

Having used the Plugin with the Novels element for a while now I would like to add a few requests.

I have missed the ability to easily add "Task forces" when working manually. Then I noticed that the relevant options are available on the WPBiography "right mouse" context menu. So my request run like this. Could we have a menu that looks like the following

Main context menu Sub menu
{{NovelsWikiProject}}
Task Forces Short stories
------------
Crime
Science fiction
------------
Needs Attention
Needs Infobox (legend change)
Incomplete Infobox (legend change)
Cover needed
Cover incomplete
------------
Collaboration Candidate
Past Collaboration
Peer Review
Old Peer Review
------------
Auto-tagged
class=List

I hope that is all fairly simple. It should be I think and I hope that makes sense - any questions please let me know. I used the pattern on the WPBiography and then blended in our features, hope that is OK :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Makes mine/steve's lives easier. He's poked me to ask me to do it, so when i get chance to speak to him on msn to check some specifics, i should be able to add it for you. Will let you know Reedy Boy 18:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, there is no 'Cover incomplete', discussing it with steve, we decided you must have meant the 'benefit from 1st edition cover', and have left it as so. If this is not the case, let us know asap and this can be changed for the next release Reedy Boy 20:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WPBio Listas

See also: Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Bugs#Tools.MakeHumanCatKey

Moved from User talk:Kingboyk


Hi there, I have been strolling thought the, the Is in particular. I noticed that the bot is tagging articles like Harry Perry III with the listas parameter "III, Harry Perry" which causes the article to show up in the Is. Similarly it tags James J. Barry Jr as "Jr, James J. Barry" which puts the article in the Js. It is not a big deal to me, and there aren't that many of them, but I thought that you might like to know. Also, just thought I would let you know that I appreciate all of your hard work with the bio project and such. Cheers--DO11.10 22:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It really doesn't matter, as listas= is purely cosmetic. That said, the AWB devs are aware that I, II, III etc needs to be fixed (I call a function in AWB for that feature). I did wonder how long it would be before I got a message about listas, and now I know the answer ;) --kingboyk 22:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC) PS "Jr" ought no longer be erroneous. That was fixed in the latest AWB. Please see this discussion for more info.

There are also errors when tagging Asian bio articles, as the article names are already surname-first. Since you said it's purely cosmetic, should I not bother editing all the ones that are incorrect? SKS2K6 20:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't bother changing them, as all it does it determine what letter the talk pages are filed under in the maintenance categories. Hardly important. What I would suggest you look at though is whether the articles themselves are misnamed and should be moved. I think Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) seems to be saying that articles about people should be named Firstname Lastname, in the Western style, even if the person is/was Asian. I'd suggest reading the policy more fully than I just did, but I think that's the basic principle. --kingboyk 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, the Asian naming conventions pages, such as Korean and Chinese, suggest otherwise. SKS2K6 21:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know, but I asked at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(people)#Asian_people. --kingboyk 21:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Kingbotk doesn't see to understand that DEFAULTSORT exists and what it does. It obviates the needs to add listas= parameters to the WP:BIO talk page header if DEFAULTSORT is already present at this page, as long as it precedes the project tag. Compare your and my last diffs of Vilmos Foldes for example. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 20:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed not. I wouldn't expect folks to be putting DEFAULTSORT onto talk pages anyway. Let's get a grip here, categorisation of talk pages really isn't important. Of course I could write a regular expression to search for that keyword but would it really be a good use of my time? --kingboyk 20:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll think about this further. Maybe I'll add the regular expression needed, but I daresay human editors will still commit the same "mistake" and at the end of the day I don't think it matters too much. Any sorting helps the maintenance categories look neater, but doesn't do any more than that AFAIK. --kingboyk 20:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply to both of the related sub-threads above: It isn't purely cosmetic. Some WikiProjects use the (correct) name sorting to make their internal categories (e.g. for assessment purposes) readable. There isn't anything in DEFAULTSORT's dox that suggest it is only for use on articles, or only for use in X circumstance. It's just general functionalilty. Given that people will use it where ever they think it adds functionality, Kingbotk should probably understand what is happening and not add duplicate (or worse yet, as it has been doing, conflicting) listas= parms. Human editors making the "Wu, Chia-ching" sort error has actually not been problematic at all. For everyone 1 of those I've encountered I've seen dozens generated by Kingbotk. All that said, I didn't come here to imply "Kingbotk sucks" or anything; the fact that it's adding living=yes WP:BIO tags to articles that need them in a good thing (though I've been updating these taggings where needed to include the sports taskforce parameter, needs-photo=yes, etc., and to use more concise code. NB: I'm not watchlisting this, so if there's a question for me with regard to this stuff, please let me know more directly. PS: I advocate DEFAULTSORT because, well, it's part of the software and just works; there is no longer a need for listas-type parameters. Wikiproject tags are already far too incompatible with each other (cf. WP:BIO's "priority=" and most other projects' "importance=", and so forth). Anything that eliminates an opportunity for further functionality forking of these tags strikes me as a Good Thing. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I personally don't favour listas either; in fact I unilaterally deprecated it.[2] However, I was overruled on that, and we got a new solution using DEFAULTSORT.[3] If you are still of the opinion it should go please post at Template talk:WPBiography. I'll likely agree with you. --kingboyk 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Done! — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Nonetheless, I maintain that it's cosmetic. "Some WikiProjects use the (correct) name sorting to make their internal categories (e.g. for assessment purposes) readable." Yes, which is cosmetic! Provided they're not all filed under T for Talk it really doesn't matter a hoot :) --kingboyk 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The T-for-talk issue is precisely what it solves. So, in that sense I don't think it's cosmetic. In the sense that DEFAULTSORT is also used to do things like DEFAULTSORT:Osullivan, Michael to thwart missorting (from a human standpoint) of names with spaces, punctuation and mixed case, yes, it's cosmetic. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • When talking about numbers, please bear in mind that my bot is just coming to the end of a run through 34,000 living people articles, and has also done several thousand peerage and baronetcies articles this week.
  • priority= was forced on us. I can't find the thread right now, but basically we were told that assessing the "importance" of living people could bring legal problems or breach WP:BLP. Our parameter name was changed with the full support of the WP1 team and Oleg, the Mathbot creator. So, having parallel parameters for importance/priority really isn't a problem. --kingboyk 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It's problematic in my mind, from a human editor perspective, is all. I'd love to see all of them simply use "priority", with "importance" being deprecated across-the-board, to get rid of the unnecessary bifurcation of WProj template syntax. But this doesn't rank very high only my list of WP issues to address. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Let's cut to the chase. How would this be "fixed" for you? Not adding a listas= when there's a DEFAULTSORT on the page? If that's all, consider it done in the next version. --kingboyk 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Si, I think that would deal with my little issue. Thanks! — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Okie dokie. I probably would have spent less time just implementing it rather than debating it first, heh... that's wiki I suppose :) Thanks for the chat, will get that little tweak before next release. --kingboyk 22:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
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