Talk:Kingdom of Valencia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Catalan-speaking Countries. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details.

Catalan-speaking Countries Portal

Spain Portal This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states. If you would like to participate, visit the project page to join.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. (FAQ).
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no
WP Former Countries - Things to do: Open tasks for WikiProject Former countries      Edit Correct links: Correct any wikilinks that you find anywhere on Wikipedia where the link is to the wrong version of the state. Some examples of bad links: Referring to the former Free City of Lübeck (an independent entity for 711 years), but the link goes to the modern city of Lübeck. Referring to Napoleon's France, where the link instead goes to modern France. Create redirects: If the article for the correct state does not yet exist, create a redirect to the nearest existing article (if possible) and place {{WPFC|class=Needed}} on the redirect's talk page. Whether or not a redirect has been created, list the wanted article below under "Needed". Article improvement After performing any of these tasks, re-rate the entry via the WPFC banner, and remove the article from the relevant list. Expand: Confederation of the Rhine, Straits Settlements, Belgian Congo, Free City of Lübeck, Kingdom of Ireland, North German Confederation, Spanish East Indies Stubs: Adamawa Emirate, Baranya-Baja Republic, Kingdom of Redonda, Piratini Republic, United States of Colombia Needed: Kingdom of Bavaria Nyasaland Assess: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, German East Africa, Orange Free State Articles requiring particular elements After providing the requested element, please remove the relevant tag from the article's WPFC banner and remove the article from this list. Flag: Alta California, Baranya-Baja Republic, Bishopric of Liège, Duchy of Lucca, Lordship of Ireland, Mexican Empire Coat of Arms: Adamawa Emirate, Anjouan, Baranya-Baja Republic, Confederation of the Equator, New Spain, West Florida Map: Baranya-Baja Republic, California Republic, Republic of Manitoba Venezuela (second republic) Infobox: Anjouan, Baranya-Baja Republic, Belgian Congo, Kingdom of Chile, Orange Free State Quality watch: 11 FA-Class former country articles - 8 GA-Class former country articles.

Only 1.2% of Jaime I's troops were Catalans, and they didnt even stay after the conquest, so stop writing valencian language developed from catalan language, because it comes from LATIN. they're SISTER TONGUES, but one doesn't come from the other one.

The translation is in progress. You may want to help by enlarging the translation, but deleting sections is not helping, on the contrary; for not to mention that you did so without sources. Mountolive | Talk 07:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I added the map "Christian conquest of the Kingdom of Valencia" to the article. It is not in its definitive place. Maurice27 02:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to interject, the statistic 1.2% sounds far to precise to be accurate and therefore is unbelievable. Whether the reality behind it is that Catalans were few among the Valencian conquerors or it is just wrong and based on bad methodology, I cannot tell. Furthermore, Catalan and Valencian are, as far as I know, not differentiable, really, as languages and therefore, whether the one developed out of the other or alongside it is like asking whether Canadian English grew out of or alongside American English. Srnec 07:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

I edited this lead The Kingdom of Valencia was one of the component realms of the Crown of Aragon established by the union of the Principality of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Aragon in 1037. Valencia was, at that time, a Moorish city, but after its conquest, as the "successor" of the old taifa rulers, James the Conqueror took the title of "King of Valencia" and gave it its own cortes and government. The title lasted as subsidiary title of that of the King of Spain until 1707.

because it just seems wrong to me to go as deep in the lead as to detail the circumstances of the Crown of Aragón dawn. Those certainly belong in the lead of the Crown of Aragón, but not in the lead of the Kingdom of Valencia.

Following your suggestion, I have kept moors but I have redirected it to taifas, this way we got both for the price of one and the lead doesn't goes too much in detail.

"Subsidiary title of that of the King of Spain" is misleading as it was no less subsidiary as it was for the King of the Crown of Aragón. The kingdom of Spain back in the day was really-really decentralized and each kingdom was largely autonomous.

I am not so satisfied with my own "lasted until 1707". You seem a native English speaker thus, if you find a more proper word, please feel free to improve my wording. Mountolive | Talk 05:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

ps. I am pretty much done with introducing more info myself in the article (even though the Splendour section should be enlarged and I may come back to that at some point). In other words, I have hit the wall and I consider the article pretty much completed from this end.

This means that you may want to review it in order to amend all that clumsy wording resulting from my translation. Thanks Mountolive | Talk 05:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Joanot, as you know very well, the Nueva Planta Decrees were issued in 1707 and the dynastic union of the Crown of Aragón to the Castile happened in 1492 without any war whatsoever.

I wonder...have you been waiting all these days while I was making the translation only for me to finish it and then when everything is done start with your bias? Please, help, mate. Don't start disrupting this one also. It's getting tiresome, my friend. Mountolive | Talk 07:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not only self-government, but independence

It's not only self-government, but a complete independence. The only link to the Crown of Aragon or with the Spanish Empire is the King, but the promulgation of laws were always made by Valencian Courts (where the King has only 1/3 of seats). The only tariffs were collected by the Valencian Generalitat, and the Valencian Courts decide how much money to give to King (or not to give) in each case. All people outside of Valencia, including Castilians, Catalans, Aragonese, or Majorcans were legally considered as foreigners and have no same rights as the Valencians (including some Muslim Valencians -called tagarins- have more rights than Christian Castilians), etc. There were also own Valencian currency (Valencian rals, sous and quinzets). And the "Charters of Valencia" was not "allowed" but "granted". Previously, the Princeps must swear it in the Valencian Courts in order to be entronized as King of Valencia. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 07:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Independence" is misleading. You and I may know a few things about Valencian history, but the occasional user may have no freaking idea (that is why this is an encyclopaedia: to learn).

The occasional visitor may find weird that they were "independent" and, at the same time, "a part of" the Crown of Aragon. Because, well, it is weird: you just can not be man and woman at the same time. You can not be independent and, at the same time, partially subjected to a King who also ruled the neighbouring territories.

Just to mention some examples so that you understand my point: Portugal was independent from the Crown of Aragon, the Republic of Pisa was independent from the Crown of Aragon, the Kingdom of Granada was independent from the Crown of Aragon.... but the Kingdom of Valencia was not. I do not dispute your reasons above but, after all, there was some dependance from the King, as he could go there, call for Corts and get some money, he could also have his Court in Valencia or elsewhere and his military could cross from component kingdom to component kingdome without being considered a "foreign" army by any of those.

The King of, for example, Portugal couldn't do that, guess why? yes, because the Kingdom of Valencia was independent from Portugal.

"Independent" is also misleading because it makes you think that it was a stablished kingdom with its own foreign policy, home policies, etc, something which was not. The power was at a local level more than any centralization whatsover, other than the Corts, which were called by the King and were not a sovereign decission. In other words: if there was some independence, that would be within the territory; for example the city of Orihuela did not have any superior authority binding it to the city of Alcoy other than the King himself. There was no remarkable centralized administration whatsoever other than the one implemented by the king who, again, was not only the king of Valencia but of several other territories.

I am obviously removing the Valencian Country edit you made, once again, at your own risk and only to satisfy your personal POV. I am restoring the official name. This discussion doesn't belong here. It has started already in the relevant place, so please feel free to contribute there. If you don't like Comunitat Valenciana, I'll have no problem with the other official name, Comunidad Valenciana, if that's the one you prefer. Mountolive | Talk 04:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Joanot: please feel free to enlarge the Splendour section: I left it a bit sketchy on purpose specially for you, as your name is mentioned there; this way you could also do something other than messing with the names etc. Don't worry if you don't feel too confident with your English: someone else will correct it as they did with mine. Mountolive | Talk 05:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)