Talk:Kingdom of Judah

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[edit] Incorrect Scriptural Citation

The main article references Joshua 18 which far predates post-Solomonic Israel. The first citation for Jerusalem being the capital of Southern Kingdom is most likely in 1 Kings 12 instead. Additionally, 2 Samuel 5:6-9 describes David conquering Jerusalem and making it his capital (Hebron served as his capital during the years he reigned over Judah alone).

Joshua 18:28 (NIV) reads "Zelah, Haeleph, the Jebusite city (that is, Jerusalem), Gibeah and Kiriath—fourteen towns and their villages. This was the inheritance of Benjamin for its clans." While this obviously mentions Jerusalem, it does not lay it out as the capital of the Kingdom of Judah.

The division of the Unified Kingdom occurs in 1 Kings 12, with Rehoboam driving off the Northern Kingdom (Israel) with his harsh demands.

Zamoose 12:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From the end of the Kingdom ...

I have done some edits in this section.

Since 63 Judea was under Roman supremacy, but at first it was not province but under the Hasmonean high-priest and his chief-minister Antipater, father to Herod.

I also have problems with the following_

37 BC–AD 100: The Herodian Kingdom of Judaea, an autonomous realm within the Roman Empire. The last Herodian King, Agrippa II (c. 48 - 100), sided with the Romans in the first Jewish Revolt of 66 - 73, which saw the Temple destroyed in AD 70.

Herod's kingdom existed until his death in 4 BC. After that it was split between his sons and reunited only between 41 and 44 under Agrippa I.

From 6 to 41 and from 44 to 66 Judea (in the narrower sense) was under direct Roman rule under a procurator subject to the Roman legate in Syria.

Sometime between 66 and 70 Judea was elevated to the status of province under a legate. This province was renamed Palestine after 135.

How should this be worded?

I also removed the phrase "ultimately giving its name to modernity as Western Society" from the Roman Empire section, since it seemed to me both off-topic and quite strange.

Finally, I also rectified the Ptolemaian-Seleucid period and elaborated on the Crusades period.

Str1977 11:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


Feeding in on that issue is another question: What territory does this article actually cover? Is it only Judea or is it "Palestine" in toto? Please answer someone.

PS. And please take care not to revert substantial edits while fighting out fruitless edit wars. Str1977 21:57, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the answer to how to deal with the early Roman period is contained in the answer as to what territory the article covers. I would basically suggest that this should cover the approximate territory of the Kingdom of Judah - i.e., the later Judaea - and not nearby territories like Idumaea, Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Batanea, and so forth. Why should an article called "Kingdom of Judah" cover Palestine in toto? john k 15:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judah and Israel

I had a look into the Kingdom of Israel article which starts with King Saul. Shouldn't the Kingdom of Judah article accordingly start with David? After all: when Saul died, the Judeans made David their king, while another part of the Israelites made Ishbaal king. Only after the latter's death did David unite the two kingdoms in his hand, a union that broke again after king Solomon's death. In modern language this could be described as a personal union of two kingdoms. Anyway, I don't think that starting the Kingdom of Judah with Rehoboam is accurate nor is it correct that Rehoboam ever was king of Israel. Thoughts? Str1977 23:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

  • No. Israel had two dynasties. Saul was the first. Saul was considered king. Why is Rehoboam never thought to be king? Sorry, I'm confused. Falphin 02:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, I see what you're saying. I believe the arguement goes that the Kingdom of Israel is the sucessor state to the first Kingdom of Israel. Falphin 02:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain:

  • First, there was the kingdom of Israel (meaning the twelve tribes) under King Saul.
  • Even during his reign, David was secretly annointed, but we can pass over this here.
  • When Saul died, the Kingdom of Israel remained, but in a shattered state. Many parts were occupied by the Philistines. Next to the Jordan, followers of Saul made his son Ishbaal king of Israel - claiming the twelve tribes but ruling only some in fact.
  • At the same time, the tribe of Juda made David their king. IMHO, this is the beginning of the kingdom of Juda.
  • Ishbaal of Israel was killed and his followers submitted to David, who also defeated the Philistines, uniting the whole country under one ruler. But, to anachronistically use modern political terms, this was a "personal union" of the two kingdoms of Israel and Juda.
  • This union prevailed under David and his son Solomon, though it was almost split by the revolt of Sheba (2 Sam 20).
  • After Solomon's death, his son Rehoboam became King of Judah by heritage (2 Kings 11,43) and met with the Israelites at Shechem to be installed as King of Israel (2 Kings 12). But this harsh behaviour caused the Israelites to withdraw and elect their own king.

So we have two kingdoms - Israel starting with Saul, Judah with David - united for some time under David and Solomon, but parting ways after Solomon's death. Str1977 09:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


- I think that it was all one country with one ruler (with some minor revolts that didn't last long) untill after solomons death.

[edit] Image

The image seems to be squishing the chart. I tried to move it around without success; if anyone knows how to move it to accomodate the chart better...--Rob117 05:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I moved it a couple of paragraphs higher. Please see if this works. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Table

Can someone in the know fix the lines of the table that are different? I tried to but I have no clue how to do it. Str1977 15:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map may need fixing

The current map, labeled as c.830 BC, seems to be somewhat inaccurate for that period- by 830 BC, Israel's transjordanian territories had been given over to Hazael of Damascus, and Israel was limited to cisjordan. The Assyrian Empire proper did not yet border Damascus, although they did besiege Damascus, unsuccessfully, in 838; Assyria's expansion into the Levant was gradual, with waxing and waning, and was done mostly through vassal treaties- direct annezation did not become the rule until the time of Tiglath-pileser III. By 830, after the Assyrian threat had passed, Damascus under Hazael dominated the entire Levant. Assyrian reach did not come this far south again until the reign of Adad-nirari III, who captured Damascus in 796 (imposing tribute, but not annexing it). If the intention is to show Israel a map of Israel under the Omrides, which the map's territory seems to match, it should be labeled as c.850 BC and Edom should be annexed to Judah.--Rob117 19:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bible as source?

"According to the Hebrew Bible..." Clearly the Bible is full of myths and propaganda and in itself not a valid source for historical accuracy. Perhaps there should be a separate paragraph for what the Bible says about Judah, similar to how other topics have a paragraph about references in popular culture.--Tchoutoye 12:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, while most historians recognize that the Deuteronomic History (i.e., the Book of Kings) is full of myths and propaganda, they also have generally felt that it also contains reliable historical information, and many have been fairly confident that they can decipher which parts are reliable history, and which parts are later myth. Furthermore, many of the prophetic books are actually considered to be at least partially written during the life of the Kingdom of Judah. If you think that the presence of myths and propaganda in a source makes it "not a valid source" for historical inquiry, then we would have to exclude just about the entirety of ancient historical writing, and conclude that we know nothing about ancient or medieval history at all. But, of course, you don't actually think that, you just dislike the Bible. The Bible is basically our only major source on the Kingdom of Judah, and most historians have been interested in figuring out what in it can be trusted, and what cannot. Your suggestion is ridiculous, in that I can't imagine what the "Main" part of the article would consist of if you took out material derived from the Bible. john k 12:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
This artical doesn't meet the Wikipedia standards for neutrality, verifiability and it does not quote accepted sources. I've added the appropriate tags. Hopefully someone can rewrite the whole artical and present the material in a more appropriate manner. 76.176.114.213 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "God's Worshipper's Kingdom"

The kingdom is named after the tribe Judah, which does not mean 'God's Worshipper', but is a name. The name originally meant 'Thank God'. I dont understand the translation.

No it means Thank Yahweh. "Thank God" would be Eldah! 203.59.11.115 14:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

If the Bible is the main source of information, the article needs more explanation of where the dates are derived from. I assume it is something more intelligent than the argument which leads some Christians to believe that the Earth and Universe are 6000 years old, but what is it in each case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

First off, Biblical dates after the founding of the Israelite monarchy (ca. 1000 B.C.) are far more definite and least partially historically founded than Biblical dating references to periods before the founding of the Israelite monarchy. The Biblical information about the sequence and lengths of individual reigns is certainly used (since information on these matters is simply not available anywhere else), but great efforts are also made to synchronize with external chronologies wherever possible. Three different scholarly schemes are tabulated right in the table on the article page. AnonMoos 08:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no independent non-Biblical confirmation of any Biblical date before the reign of Ahab. So say that dates after the founding of the monarchy before that date is factually incorrect. 203.59.11.115 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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