Talk:Kingdom of Ireland

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states. If you would like to participate, visit the project page to join.	History Portal Geography Portal Atlas Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ). (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
More information about this article... An editor has requested that a coat of arms image be added to this article and placed within the infobox. Once the requested image is added (or if this state never had a coat of arms), remove the coatneeded parameter from the {{WPFC}} template call on this page to remove this image request.
WP Former Countries - Things to do: Open tasks for WikiProject Former countries      Edit Correct links: Correct any wikilinks that you find anywhere on Wikipedia where the link is to the wrong version of the state. Some examples of bad links: Referring to the former Free City of Lübeck (an independent entity for 711 years), but the link goes to the modern city of Lübeck. Referring to Napoleon's France, where the link instead goes to modern France. Create redirects: If the article for the correct state does not yet exist, create a redirect to the nearest existing article (if possible) and place {{WPFC|class=Needed}} on the redirect's talk page. Whether or not a redirect has been created, list the wanted article below under "Needed". Article improvement After performing any of these tasks, re-rate the entry via the WPFC banner, and remove the article from the relevant list. Expand: Confederation of the Rhine, Straits Settlements, Belgian Congo, Free City of Lübeck, Kingdom of Ireland, North German Confederation, Spanish East Indies Stubs: Adamawa Emirate, Baranya-Baja Republic, Kingdom of Redonda, Piratini Republic, United States of Colombia Needed: Kingdom of Bavaria Assess: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, German East Africa, Orange Free State Articles requiring particular elements After providing the requested element, please remove the relevant tag from the article's WPFC banner and remove the article from this list. Flag: Alta California, Baranya-Baja Republic, Bishopric of Liège, Lordship of Ireland, Mexican Empire Coat of Arms: Adamawa Emirate, Anjouan, Baranya-Baja Republic, Confederation of the Equator, Congo Free State, New Spain, West Florida Map: Baranya-Baja Republic, California Republic, Holy Roman Empire, Republic of Manitoba Venezuela (second republic) Infobox: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, Baranya-Baja Republic, Belgian Congo, Holy Roman Empire, Orange Free State Quality watch: 4 FA-Class former country articles - 3 GA-Class former country articles.

As a crown isn't a "post" any more than it is an office, I would suggest changing that part to "the throne of Ireland was held by the reigning..." PML

Done, PML. BTW what do you think of the pic? My first pic on wiki, taken last night on my new digital camera. ÉÍREman 04:43 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

'Tis enough, 'twill serve. I imagine that it is a faithful rendering, muck and all, which makes it hard to make out detail from the wording and heraldic symbols. But the dexter supporting beast is quite obviously post 1707. (I was interested when I was first in the Master's Lodge in Trinity, Cambridge to note that the dexter supporting beast at the mantlepiece there was a griffin.) PML.

---

British monarchs dropped their "theoretical claim" to the French throne soon after the French Revolution and this was reflected heraldically when the coat of arms was modified after the union with Ireland was effected in 1801. That's why I snipped out the reference to France in the caption (you'll note the absence of Fleur-de-lis in the picture.)

http://hometown.aol.com/cusam2/myhomepage/index.html Argues that Act Union 1801 was ultra Vires King George III as King Henry IX of Ireland was alive till 1807.

---

Table is broken, someone with more knowledge fix it. Behemoth01 20:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A lot missing

This is fine, but it should really point out that there were several major individual Irish kingdoms that lasted into the early years of the 1600's. Fergananim 17:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms

Surely the same coat of arms as appears on the Republic of Ireland page can be used? Andrew Yong 20:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag of Kingdom of Ireland

In researching the flag/arms of the Lordship of Ireland when I came across a curious line in ATQ Stewarts The Shape of Irish History. On Henry VIII's changing the arms of Ireland when moving from Lordship to Kingdom he wrote: "Ireland was given a new green flag and the harp as its national symbol."

First off, I must say that I had always fallen in to the trap of thinking that the Patricks's Saltire was the flag of Ireland during the Kingdom of Ireland. On a little bit of research, I can see now that this is a non-runner, and I suggest it should be taken down. The Saltire was coined only 20 years before the dissolution of the Kingdom and was never a flag of that kingdom but the colours of the Order of St. Patrick, an order of knights created in honor of Poynings laws being eased. From what I can see, that flag was in no way (ever) a flag of the Kingdom of Ireland, and in fact 19th century official British sources deny that Ireland ever had a flag before the Union flag.

But what was this "green flag" that Stewart is referring to? The first thing that struck me was if this was the same Green Flag we all know? i.e. the flag most associated with Irish rebellion during the Kingdom and up to and including 1798? I must say, at the moment, I'm leaning towards "yes, it was."

The green flag was certainly widely popular. It was used as a naval jack and is listed for Ireland in books of flags at least from 1685. However, following the Act of Union it drops out - as I said, with sources denying that it ever had any legitimacy, and saying instead that Ireland never had a flag before the Union Flag, not even the Saltire. Was this because it had become so closely associated with Irish nationalism?

There is another curious hint: the standard of the Lordship, as I have discovered, was the Three Crowns (identical to the flag of Munster). One source says in declaring himself King of Ireland "the three crowns were replaced with the harp by Henry VIII, in case they were mistaken for the Papal tiara." Did Henry VII swap the "flag of Munster" for the "flag of Leinster" (with the convenience that it featured the harp, a symbol listed as the arms of the Kings of Ireland at least since 1280)?

There is also a switch in the "colours of Ireland." Prior to the Norman invasion, there appears to be no colours for Ireland. During the priod of the Lordship, Gaelic leaders appear to have adopted blue as the colour of Ireland. However, during the Kingdom, green became the colour. Could this colour change have been inspired by the "green flag"?

What is the opinion of others? Both with regard to the "green flag" and also with regard to the Saltire being purported as the flag of the Kingdom? I am of the opinion, at the moment at least, that we should change the Saltire to the Green Flag (we know at least that it was very popular, official or not). The Saltire is a non-runner, from what I can see.

--sony-youth^talk 11:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the Saltire as I cannot find any source that gives it credence as a flag for the kingdom (except in retrospect). As noted above, 19th century British sources deny that Ireland ever had a flag before the Union flag. --sony-youth^talk 16:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)