Talk:King Bowser

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[edit] Move to Bowser

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was: no move, leave Bowser as a disambiguation page. Briefly:

  1. Using a primary/secondary disambiguation rather than placing the disambiguation page at the primary name is a measure intended for cases where one of the items is overwhelmingly the more common one. In this case, the provided Google results suggest that this is not the case even in online sources—if the Nintendo character was substantially the more common (not "popular," as this has nothing to do with a topic's "popularity" per se) usage, we would expect to see minimal non-Nintendo results in the higher-ranked pages—and almost certainly not the case offline (as the Nintendo usage would be expected to have an advantage over the tanker usage in terms of raw site hits). In the absence of convincing evidence to do otherwise, the standard convention calls for the disambiguation page to occupy the main title.
  2. The (perceived) predominance of a certain usage in the higher-population United States over a lower-population region does not necessarily justify a primary disambiguation; see, for example, Georgia.
  3. Those advocating a move have made a number of assertions that, while likely true, are not directly relevant here; the knowledge that the game series in question is the most popular tells us little about how it compares—in terms of usage—with something entirely unrelated to gaming.

I will point out, additionally, that the harshly negative and often incivil tone taken by certain participants in this discussion reflects poorly on them; there is no reason to descend to attacking other contributors, as all participants should be focusing on the substance of the argument, rather than the personalities involved.

I would suggest, incidentally, that a disambiguation like Bowser (character) might be better than the current one. Kirill Lokshin 23:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. Shortly before this moment, a user has been messing with a few Bowser titles. Georgia guy 00:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Someone had moved Bowser to a short description about tanker trucks. I tried to fix it to the way it was but may have complicated things in the process. The other person didn't take into account all the pages that link to Bowser. Some help would be appreciated to get things the way they were. --SaturnYoshi 00:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Nintendo's Bowser is by far the most common use of the word. And anyway, didn't it used to be at that title? Why was it moved? -- Steel 08:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    • A user named JzG moved the page. Georgia guy 13:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
      • That user felt that this tiny paragraph about a tanker truck should have been the root for this article name. I managed to move his page to Bowser (tanker truck), but wasn't able to move Mr. Koopa back to the way it was. The other user didn't bother to think about the practically hundreds of other pages that linked to Bowser which is now a disambiguation page. --SaturnYoshi 06:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
      • You might want to go talk to JzG and get his opinion on this. -- Steel 16:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
        • JzG still believes that the tanker truck is the more important meaning. He even moved the Nintendo character to the middle of the dis-ambiguation page because he considers it more trivial. Georgia guy 13:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
          • A quick Google search suggests that JzG may in fact be right. -- Steel 14:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. It seems to be the most common use of the term. --Edgelord 06:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. Not only does the use to describe tankers and fuel dispensers predate the Nintendo character by almost a century, it is also the generic term for gas pump in Australia and New Zealand, where the S. F. Bowser Company had a very strong presence. It is the standard term for airport fuel tankers and has been since pretty much the invention of the aeroplane. You'd need some pretty compelling evidence that the Nintendo character is the "most common" usage before you would override that much history and common usage. Right now bowser redirects to the DAB page, which is perfectly acceptable. Oh, and Georgia guy? I don't take kindly to being called a vandal. You might have at least tried Steel's Google test before launching off on one. Just zis Guy you know? 17:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh, so you must think that it is too US-centric to have the Nintendo character the primary meaning, for clarification on your view. Georgia guy 17:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • There is no need to editorialise my view, which is precisely as stated: this is a term which has almost a century of currency and a usage which extends far beyond the restricted demographic of Nintendo players who can remember the names of individual characters. Take a look at Hoover. For that matter, take a look at your dictionary: Oxford, Chambers, Merriam-Webster and even bloody Encarta all list the fuel tanker and not the Nintendo character. Just zis Guy you know? 18:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • That's because dictionaries don't have Nintendo character names as entries. Georgia guy 18:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Regarding your view that older meanings should be considered more important than newer meanings, then I think it makes sense to you that Pi should be at Pi (mathematics) because the oldest meaning of the term is Pi (letter). Georgia guy 18:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • That would be the case if a credible case could be made that more than a minority of those coming to Pi are looking for the Greek letter rather than the mathematical constant. In the English language Wikipedia, that is unlikely, but if credible evidence were presented I have no doubt that there would be a debate. Hoover is a better example: a genericised tradename. Just zis Guy you know? 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I've struck out my support above, after the Google search showed that Nintendo's Bowser isn't "by far the most common usage". Having said that, I don't think the tanker truck thing is significantly more common than Nintendo's Bowser to warrant having the actual Bowser page to itself. I'm all for having Bowser as the disambiguation. -- Steel 18:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Works for me, and in fact that's where we were back in February of 2005, until someone -- obviously not a vandal ;-) -- moved Bowser to Bowser (disambiguation) and shunted Bowser (Nintendo) back in, which is probably why I'm finding broken multiple redirects all over the place. Just zis Guy you know? 16:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • We could be here all night with this, but I took a print screen (apologies for the small size) of what appears for me when I type in Bowser. Anyway, Nintendo's Bowser needs to be significantly more common than the rest to warrant having the Bowser page (i.e. The majority of the first page on Google being Nintendo related sites), which is not the case. -- Steel 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Is there any point in not moving it to Bowser seeing as it redirects to this page? Nemu 00:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh no it doesn't, it redirects to the disambiguation page, just as Hoover goes to the disambiguation. Just zis Guy you know? 16:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support. There was already a successful move, and this move was made despite that and not discussing it. The video game villain is the most notable usage of the word. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • So you say. Perhaps you can provide some verifiable evidence of that? The Oxford English Dictionary, Chambers and Encarta, to name but three, disagree. Just zis Guy you know? 10:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I almost don't even want to bother with such a laughable argument, but... Ever notice how they don't even MENTION Bowser? BECAUSE THEY ARE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. The dictionary does not list fictional characters. This is a terrible argument. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • There's no need to get stroppy about this. If you say that this is the most notable usage of the word, it's not much to ask that you back that up with something... anything. -- Steel 19:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I echo Steel's comment, and I would also suggest that the reason they give the older usage is not simply that this one is fictional, but because it has been around for most of a century. Which is a tiny bit longer than Nintendo :-) And as I may have hinted above, making snide comments to administrators over twice your age is not a particularly productive approach, assuming you want to keep editing... Just zis Guy you know? 20:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Notice: Nintendo was founded in 1889 ;) -- Steel 21:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, sorry. How about the fact that the Mario series of video games is the most known and biggest video game series ever created by far? That Bowser appeared in cartoons, comics, video games, a movie, et al. throughout the world? Saying that Bowser, like every fictional character ever made, doesn't appear in the dictionary is a poor argument. Essentially, that argument is saying that Bowser, the video game villain, doesn't deserve the main article because he is fictional. You are arguing that because Bowser doesn't appear in the dictionary (because he is fictional), he is not more notable. My argument of Mario being the biggest video game franchises that ever existed is much bigger than your dictionary thing (which is more or less saying that because he is fictional, he is less notable by default). Come up with something better than that. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • What, bigger and better known than gas pumps in Australia? I don't think so. What I have done is to fix the major substantive objection raised thus far - inbound links - and in the process mend a large number of double and sometimes triple redirects. What we have now is a term with multiple meanings, each of which is given an article which is unambiguous. People from Australia and New Zealand, or anyone from one of the former colonies who wonders why a water tanker is called a bowser, will find the information they want, and the browsing of Nintendo fans is not disrupted in any way because the links are all correct, and if they do by some quirk go straight to Bowser they will get a dab page. This works just fine. I'm happy to acept Steel's judgment of parity, which is what we have now, but the repeated assertion that Nintendo is the most common usage, to the point of occupying the Bowser page, lacks any evidential basis and goes against some very strong counter-arguments, not least of which the fact that bowser is listed as a tanker in dictionaries and other encyclopaedias. A consensus between Nintendo users and other Nintendo users is not worth much against this long-standing usage. Just zis Guy you know? 08:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
So you use Australia? Hmmm... Yeah, so much bigger in population than North America, Canada and Europe, all of whom likely know Bowser as Bowser or King Koopa. Seriously, I am so freaking sick and tired of you elitists coming in and saying "oh, you're just Nintendo fans and this is just a video game article, it's lesser because of said status and your opinions are worth less than mine because I write real articles blahditty blahditty blah". Christ, what is your problem? Telling me that the fact that Mario is one of the biggest names in video games ever, one of the biggest names in video games at present and one of the biggest fictional icons in the world is a worse argument than the fact that Bowser does not appear in the dictionary (along with Sherlock Homes, Robin Hood, Darth Vader and Donkey Kong)? There was a consensus to move it to Bowser, and I wish you would actually consider these people as Wikipedians instead of "a bunch of Nintendo fans". AKA: Show an ounce of respect to anyone but yourself and those who agree with you. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
O RLY? I am from the UK and can say, hand on heart, that I have never heard of the Nintendo character before. You are making the fundamental mistake of assuming that everybody is not only a video game player, but a player of Mario Brothers games on Nintendo. I suggest to you that if the number of people playing Mario on Nintendo is as high as 5% of the total population it would be a great surprise. Remember, this is a household word in Asutralia and New Zealand, used every day. How many adult Americans, for example, do you think refer to the Nintendo character by name as part of their daily lives? How many copies of the biggest-selling Mario game are out there? Just zis Guy you know? 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I just thought I'd throw this in here: I'm a Nintendo fan, and all the articles I edit here on Wikipedia are videogame related. A Link To The Past, kindly stop throwing round the accusation that the only people who would oppose this proposed move are those who "look down" on Nintendo fans and see them as "lesser" beings, because it's simply not true. -- Steel 16:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Despite the fact that the tanker truck use of the word may be more popular (more so with older people), or may have originated first, its article is barely a paragraph long and doesn't even cite any sources. On the other hand, this article has been well established for quite a while now and had several more articles that linked to it. Now, because of this undiscussed change, all the links on the other articles need to be changed, causing a hassle that we never had to begin with. -SaturnYoshi 22:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The link issue (which isn't really an issue at all) has been dealt with. See Special:Whatlinkshere/Bowser. -- Steel 22:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Length of articles is irrelevant, merely an example of systemic bias. There is no doubt scope for a much longer article on the S. F. Bowser corporation and its history. Just zis Guy you know? 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure it was a good idea to change all those links before this discussion ended. Even if this article doesn't get moved back to "Bowser", it doesn't mean it will stay as "Bowser (Nintendo)". For example the characters of Peach & Daisy are at "Princess Peach" & "Princess Daisy" respectively not "Peach (Nintendo)" & "Daisy (Nintendo)". SNS 22:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Additionally, if this turns out in favor of keeping it at Bowser, I expect the one who changed all Bowser links to Bowser (Nintendo) to change them back (not by reverting, by removing, so no added content is lost). - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • If there is a consensus to move the article to another title, Cyde can bot-change the links or I will AWB them. What title is more appropriate than Bowser (Nintendo)? Koppa, perhaps? As noted above, bowser is not really an option here due to long-standing usage predating Nintendo and spreading to a far wider community than video game players. Just zis Guy you know? 09:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose per JzG. --kingboyk 09:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Erm, wait a minute... The character's full name according to the bold text in the article is King Bowser Koopa. King Bowser Koopa redirects here. Surely the solution is to move the page there. --kingboyk 11:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"Mohandas Ghandhi"'s article is on "Mahatma Ghandi", the reason being that's the most common name he's refered to as. How man people go about mentioning Bowsers full names and title? Jefffire 11:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, because there's no other Mahatma Ghandi to challenge for the slot. My suggestion was based on this rationale: Bowser is a disambiguation page, and that's not likely to change as far as I can see. You've been forced into a second-choice name of Bowser (Nintendo). What I'm saying is, since you're being lumbered with a second choice name wouldn't King Bowser Koopa be better than Bowser (Nintendo)?
Forced? How are we being forced? The majority seems to want it their way - ie, Bowser (Nintendo) at Bowser. The fact of the matter is that your only argument is that Bowser is a fictional character - Hell, he's a video game character, that's even worse than being fictional, right? The only half-decent arguments are pointing out alternative uses of the word Bowser in certain regions. However, it's only half-decent because it applies only to one region. Let's assume that the video game character is known as Bowser 1/8 of the time in Australia, while the gas pumps are known as Bowser the rest of the time. But if we asked people in North America or Europe what a "Bowser is", what are the odds that they would say a gas pump over the video game character? - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As for your other question, I've no idea. I imagine that most people - like me - have never even heard of this character. --kingboyk 11:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To be quite honest, nobody calls him by his full name (indeed, I didn't even know that was his full name and I've been playing Mario games for yonks). Bowser (Nintendo) is better than King Bowser Koopa, In my opinion. -- Steel 16:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that if this move would fail, it can be moved to King Bowser, but it should not be moved there unless it fails. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Okie dokie, that's fair enough. Thanks for listening to my suggestion. --kingboyk 19:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • support. — Dan | talk 20:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the most notable article be given the page? None of the other articles are very important. 65.175.199.104 20:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, JzG, I might decide to show you an ounce of respect if you lay off the article assuming that this move succeeds, and if it fails I will do the same. And I hope you fix all of the links (because if it does succeed, it will be even more broken than it once was). - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Bowser should be the disambig page, all the other Bowsers should be Bowser (whatever). --SigPig 22:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose as per SigPig etc. -- Beardo 01:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Let me lay down a couple of rules here. 1) Please don't refer to JzG or other admins as vandals. 2) A Link to the Past, Guy has said on repeated occasions that if there's any mess to be cleaned up with regards to incoming links he will sort it out. If you continue with incivility and acting as though you own this article you will be issued with a 24 hour block. --kingboyk 07:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
    • What, so he shouldn't be under any obligation to clean up his own mess assuming this move vote passes? And what are you talking about?! For Christ's sake, how the Hell am I acting like I own the article anymore than he is? I don't expect you to give him a speech after he decided that the previous vote was invalid because it was a bunch of Nintendo fanboys. Gee, what a surprise - a supporter of Just zis Guy yells at someone else for doing something Just zis Guy does ten fold. The fact of the matter is that Guy knew that there was a consensus and decided to not discuss it because of who the people on the talk page were, and decide that they aren't worth the bandwidth and moved the page despite blatant opposition to it. He deserves no respect for being bold and pissing in the eyes of people who have a differing opinion. And you, talking to me as if I'm taking ownership of this article, I didn't decide that my word is the only true word and move this page, he did. And by exclusively choosing to tell me to not act the way that JZG has been acting, you don't make it hard to figure out tha you're a biased elitist who is defending anyone on his side from anything, legitimate or not. If this vote goes in your favor, I won't decide that your opinions are worth crap and do things my way, but for some reason, JzG doing exactly that isn't anything bad. I guess it's to be expected; it's not too common to see admins like you blindly defend anyone on his side because they're on his side. You really have no place in this discussion, considering how far you are towards one side. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Oy. Exactly how long is this discussion supposed to carry on? Not to change the subject from A Link to the Past, but I'm beginning to think that this argument is going to last forever. If not that, then a better part of it. -SaturnYoshi 08:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Very good question. Usually until there is consensus. Guy? --kingboyk 08:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • """" I've never heard of this Bowser character, however in the UK we also use the term to refer to both oil bowsers and also water bowsers that are put on streets if there is a cut to the main supply. Therefore I'd think that Bowser as in Tanker should be the main page and Bowser (Nintendo) should be the name of this page. --Charlesknight 08:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, a bowser is a tank of some description to me too (also British). That's why I feel that having Bowser as a dab page is actually quite generous. --kingboyk 08:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The term of Bowser being a tank is rarely used (if at all) in the United States. It is also here in the US (as well as Japan) that the majority of Nintendo players are. I'm guessing that most of the people who edit Nintendo related articles are also from the US which is why there is a lot of arguing and bashing back and forth. What this whole argument really boils down to is just a difference in Nationality. Therefore, it might be best if the stand-alone term of Bowser is left at the disambiguation page. -SaturnYoshi 09:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't really care if this is moved or not, but if I may ask: Why the hell do you expect dictionaries to list video game characters? Or any fictional characters at all, for that matter? That makes no sense whatsoever. You may have a perfectly good argument to make, but that isn't it (nor is "OMG it's fictional!!!", incidentally).--SB | T 19:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support unlike Kirby, this Bowser is still the most common. igordebraga ≠ 22:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong support. This is the most well known Boswer. Make the disambiguation page "Bowser (disambiguation)". It should have never been moved in the first place. Edgecution 06:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Can I just point out that everyone is making sweeping comments about how this is the most well known bowser but you haven't provided any evidence that that is the case. This shows that it is not the most common usage in general, this and this show the alternative (non-Nintendo) uses being used in everyday language throughout the world (I.e. not just Australia). I can find more links to illustrate this if anyone would like me to. -- Steel 09:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Will you please cease your trolling? Just because it does not declare what we say absolute fact, you call the fact that the Mario franchise was extremely popular and still is not evidence? The fact of the matter is that people who have played SMB, SMB3, SMW, SM64, SMW2, SMS, New SMB, etc. often know who either King Koopa or Bowser are. You act as if Bowser is an obscure character in the franchise. The only evidence you have is a Google search which shows one link ahead of a link to Bowser, and yet you say that's better evidence than "Mario being the biggest franchise in video games and one of the biggest fictional series ever"? - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
further to my suggestion on your talkpage - please refrain from using language like "trolling" when discussing matters with other editors. --Charlesknight 20:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Two of those links are UK based which only proves that the tanker use of the word is the most popular in the UK (to include Austrailia and New Zealand). However, the video game character is the most popular usage of the term in the US. -SaturnYoshi 11:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Again, you've just stated that "this bowser is the most popular usage" without backing it up with anything. I ran a Google.com search (as opposed to the .co.uk one above), which returned much the same results. May I also point out that the first results on Google for bowser are actually U.S. based sites. -- Steel 16:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Howabout a disambig. page as Bowser the game character is named after Bowser the real life member of Sha Na Na.L0b0t 12:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, as of that, then it makes equal sense to you that Pi should be at Pi (mathematics) because that use was named after the Greek letter Pi (letter). Georgia guy 13:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Who ever said that Bowser was named after some guy in Sha Na Na??? -SaturnYoshi 14:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Because he IS named after Bowser from Sha Na Na, all but one of the Koopa bosses (Bowser and his kids) are named after musicians in the English version of the games. Wendy O., Lemmy, Ludwig von, Roy, Iggy, Larry. The only one who is not named after a musician is Morton Koopa jr..L0b0t 22:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


If we're tring to get it away from the (Nintendo) part, why not move it to King Bowser? Nemu 16:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Because he's commonly known as Bowser. King Bowser should be a last result. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Most people don't refer to Peach as Princess Peach, but the article is named that. It's the same thing for Bowser. Nemu 20:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, most people refer to Peach as Princess Peach and that is what she is usually refered to in games. TJ Spyke 21:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Crikey! This is one stroppy argument. Still, I'm not convinced that the Nintendo usage is overwhelming both on and offline, so Weak Oppose. --maru (talk) contribs 22:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It was never stated anywhere that Bowser Koopa is named after anyone in Sha Na Na. Besides... Morton Koopa, Jr. was named for Morton Downey, Jr. It was Larry who was not named after a musician. He was named after Larry King. -SaturnYoshi 23:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Chamillionaire

Shouldn't there be something such as a link about Chamillionaire? King Koopa is a name he goes by I think it would be unjust to not even mention it. When I search wikipedia for king koopa i am redirected to this page. 69.212.19.245 02:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bowser's Death: Yet Again

Re the issue of Bowser's death - it should be noted that Madame Clairvoya poses a question - "COULD King Boo have revived Bowser?" Therefore, the answer could equally be yes or no. I've always thought that it was some kind of very convincing robotic suit thing, so I've added that possibility back into the article. After all, Bowser is clearly not dead at the end of Super Mario 64 - he simply says "Bwahaha! I'll cower away for a bit", or similar. 'Revived' should not be presumed to mean "from the dead" - Bowser states at the end of SM64 that he needs to go and recover his strength. Well, whatever it is, King Boo clearly pilots it, so if it is Bowser, he's not corpus mentus. Makron1n 15:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

But the question still is "Could King Boo have revived Bowser?", meaning that Bowser needs reviving, and King Boo may or may not have done so. The question still implies that Bowser is dead.--204.169.23.246 20:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that it implies he is dead, merely that he needs reviving in some way - it might be, for example, that his magical abilities are spent. Makron1n 22:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Reviving could refer to death or a state of coma; but reviving someone because they lost their abilities doesn't make sense. 138.192.30.199 23:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I quite like the article as is now. The 'Bowser disguise' possibility is included, and the line 'Bowser-like spiritual entity' is a good one (kudos to you if you wrote it, and I imagine you did), since it's likely that this 'Bowser' is a supernatural doppelganger created by King Boo (hollow insides and a clean head-split, but magical abilities aplenty). Peace and love for all, then.Makron1n 00:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, if no-one can decide, keep all possilities open.

[edit] Bowser's wife

I think "Clawdia" was a joke from the Nintendo Official Magazine which an editor has taken too literaly. I'll remove it, since it does not appear to be canon. Jefffire 11:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not is a joke is unknown. I think it's worth keeping for now...

[edit] Still one more comment

I don't think the word "Nintendo" is the perfect suffix. This character appears in many computer online games that are based on Nintendo games (but that do not belong in the categories of being like Nintendo games in every way except that they are played with a computer keyboard.) Any opinions?? Georgia guy 01:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Still, Bowser is strictly a Nintendo exclusive character and fan made games cannot change that fact. -SaturnYoshi 01:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should this just be moved to King Bowser?

Either King Bowser or King Bowser Koopa would be better than the current name. Articles will sometimes include titles like that anyways. 00:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I personally prefer "King Bowser Koopa", myself. It is his full official name in the States after all. -SaturnYoshi 03:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
But we don't list Peach at "Princess Peach Toadstool", she's at "Princess Peach".
  • I agree that King Bowser or King Bowser Koopa would be better then the "Bowser (Nintendo)". SNS 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • As and when you settle on a better name, let me know and I'll fix up the links. Just zis Guy you know? 08:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi JzG. Can you move it to King Bowser Koopa. There's already history there, so this takes an admin. Thanks, Ben Aveling 08:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Final answer? Happy to do it, but I'd prefer to do it just the once :-) Just zis Guy you know? 08:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't move it to King Bowser Koopa. While it technically may be his full name figured out by piecing bits of information together from different games, nobody actually uses that name. King Bowser is fine, IMO. -- Steel 10:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
King Bowser Koopa has never been used all together. There is no indication that Nintendo feels King Bowser Koopa is the official name, as they never used the name. Move to King Bowser. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm convinced. Let's move it to King Bowser. Ben Aveling 02:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Does this mean we've finally come to a decision? -SaturnYoshi 04:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
King Bowser Koopa is his full name. I would rather have him at "Bowser", but we have some bull-headed editors here who managed to move it and then block the attempt to move it back. Anyways, "King Bowswer" is the second most common name for him, so I would support that move. TJ Spyke 05:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Alternate hypothesis: we have some bull-headed editors who insist that a character in a video game is more significant that a tradename which became genericised many decades ago to the point where it is now mentioned in dictionaries and treeware encyclopaedias, as well as being the local term for gas pump across an entire continent. I have completed the move to King Bowser as requested and am fixing the links. Guy 11:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[unindenting] Oh, stop. The discussion ended, and the matter is decided (for the time being, anyway...), so quit squabbling. It's unproductive to make such a comment, but it's equally unproductive to respond to it.--SB | T 12:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the move, Guy. Now the article content itself can once again be the main concern. -SaturnYoshi 19:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King Bowser Koopa

Where did "King Bowser Koopa" come from? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Check the discussion above. Apparently if you piece together information from various games (released decades apart), that's his "proper" name. -- Steel 23:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I had a feeling, but there was always the slim possibility it had a source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

King "Bowser" Koopa, as a name, comes from "Ignorance is Bliss", which is a Nintendo-themed song about King Koopa capturing Peach, and his plans involving Dinosaur Land and such. Other than that, the games have never used the name together. It's always King Koopa in Japan, and "Bowser" otherwise (with rare exceptions). Koopa also addresses Peach as "Miss Toadstool".

[edit] Undead Bowser

Does the Dry Bones-like version of Bowser seen in New Super Mario Bros. have an official name? And if so, what is the source for that name? 138.192.30.189 22:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't have a name that I'm aware of. He's been referred to as 'Skeletal Bowser' in the New Super Mario Bros. article, but that's really just for descriptive purposes. He's still Bowser, even if he's undead...Makron1n 23:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frank Welker ?

Why does everyone keep saying Bowser is voiced by Frank Welker ? --4.229.33.62

[edit] Bowser Jr.

Who on Earth decided that Bowser Jr. was Bowser's 'worker', rather than son, in spite of his name, the fact that he calls Bowser 'papa', and a million other blatant indicators? Inexplicable... Makron1n 19:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Koopa Kingdom

It is not confirmed if there is such thing as a Koopa Kingdom. Captain Underpants King 19:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there reference to it in Super Mario RPG, and possibly the Super Mario Bros. instruction manual? I'm not sure though. Makron1n 19:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It's referenced in Yoshi's Island, and is implied to be the location of the final area of the game.

In Super Mario RPG, it's known as the "Koopa Troop". 71.195.35.110 06:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hair Graphics

Can it really be said that 'graphical limitations' are what made Koopa bald in the original super mario bros? They could have easily given him hair the same orange color as his skin.

[edit] Baby Bowser in Yoshi's Island DS

On both this page and Bowser Jr.'s page, it says Baby Bowser in Yoshi's Island DS is based off Bowser Jr.'s model. However, I think the Baby Bowser in YIDS looked pretty much exactly like Baby Bowser in the original YI, and neither were particularly similar to Bowser Jr. (and certainly not as similar as Partners In Time Baby Bowser - PiT probably takes place some time after the two Yoshi's Islands, anyway, as all the babies save perhaps Peach seem a little older).

Compare and contrast, my friend:
Left: Baby Bowser in the original Yoshi's Island; Right: Baby Bowser in Yoshi's Island DS
- NES Boy 19:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Other thzn the new one being a little brighter, they do look very similar. TJ Spyke 21:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. Kyle Barbour 23:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

King Bowser → Bowser (Nintendo) – Use most common name. My move was reverted because of the existence of a short and ridiculous "discussion" to have it at "King Bowser" out of irrational dislike of parenthesis in names. The article doesn't even use the name. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 01:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Oppose. It is not used to refer to Bowser because he is not most often called King Bowser. However, he is CALLED King Bowser. He IS a King. Not only that, but Bowser (Nintendo) would need to be moved; it would have to be Bowser (video game character). Plus, there's a better chance that people will search for King Bowser than they will Bowser (Nintendo); King Bowser is a real name used by several characters to refer to him. The fact that he is not commonly known as such is irrelevant; we rarely have enemies speaking, who would be the only ones who would call him King Bowser. Of course Bowser is more common, because the only people we often see speaking wouldn't call him King. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
"It is not used to refer to Bowser because he is not most often called King Bowser." You just outright stated that "Bowser" is the most common name. Your argument that "he's called that" makes absolutely no sense. Mark Twain is called Samuel Langhorne Clemens, thus we should move his page there? I'm not disputing the existence of the name; I am disputing the sense of having this page here. "Plus, there's a better chance that people will search for King Bowser than they will Bowser (Nintendo)". No, they'd type in "Bowser", which sends them to the disambiguation page. Which is a testament to the fact that Bowser is a more common name; "King Bowser" is rarely used.
Your argument, overall, makes little sense to me. Please be more direct than jumping all over the place. Furthermore, Bowser (video game character) is not the accepted style, so I have no idea where the Hell you got that from, or why that is an argument against moving. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 02:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
As far as naming conventions go, Bowser (Video game character) would be the proper name, Bowser (Nintendo) is incorrect, as one should be as specific as possible when naming. Bowser is a video game character, Bowser is not Nintendo. Bowser (Video game character of Nintendo) would be more accurate still, but is unnecessarily lengthy. For more clarification, please see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions. Thanks! Gene S. Poole 04:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Precisely - if it were moved, it would not be moved to (Nintendo), but at the very least, (video game character). If naming conventions says we should be specific, why not be as specific as possible? Hmm? - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest looking around? Alice (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland), Lumiere (Beauty and the Beast), Paine (Final Fantasy), Sora (Kingdom Hearts), Crash (Ice Age), Lynx (Chrono Cross), Trust (100 Bullets). That's really only the tip of the iceberg. "Nintendo", I daresay, is more specific than "video game character" since the former indicates what company he's from, not just the media (which completely ignores his television and film appearances). ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 04:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
My bad, yo. I meant inspecific. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Could be moved to either Bowser (Nintendo) or even Bowser (Mario). There are precedents for either choice: Boo (Nintendo), Pokey (Nintendo), Toad (Nintendo) or Chomp (Mario), Dry Bones (Mario), Mother Brain (Metroid) -- Exitmoose 01:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support moving to "Bowser (something)". Since his name is Bowser and he's called Bowser. And his name is called Bowser. --Yath 03:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support moving to Bowser (Nintendo). This was my first choice back in August, but we'd just had a huge argument about disambiguations so I didn't make a fuss about it. -- Steel 13:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support I think he's referred to as "King Koopa" much more often than "King Bowser." In Smash Brothers I know that they announce him as just "Bowser," and in Mario RPG it was either "Bowser" or "King Koopa." I've never actually heard anyone call him "King Bowser" before, however I've never played Mario 64 or Mario Sunshine so I can't be sure. I think he's basically just known as "Bowser," but if you're going to address his royalty in his name "Koopa" is the way to go, not "Bowser." -- Quixoto 15:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose His correct name is King Bower (King Bower Koopa actually, but that is another story). Bowser is just shorthand (the same way Princess Peach is sometimes just called Peach). TJ Spyke 23:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
    • "Princess Peach" is very common naming for that specific character. "King Bowser" is not for this character. If you're going to keep his "title", it might as well be at "King Koopa", as that name is far more common than "King Bowser". ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
      • He hasn't been called King Koopa since the Super NES days (when Peach was called Princess Toadstool). My point is his name (in English) is King Bowser with "Bowser" just beig short for it. If you want my honest opinion, the page should just be at "Bowser" and move Bowser to "Bowser (disambiguation)". TJ Spyke 23:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Let's not have a re-run of that discussion. -- Steel 23:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
        • The point is that "King Koopa" is more common usage than "King Bowser", which is only used in rare cases. Those rare cases don't warrant keeping the article somewhere instead of what most people and games refer to him as. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 02:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
          • It is also retconned. And the rare cases of him being called King Bowser are on account of the fact that his minions are rarely seen speaking. He is called King Bowser in all Mario RPGs following Super Mario RPG. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
            • Whether something is canon or not isn't something that we dabble on. (Nor do you have evidence of such. Then again, such concerns never impede you.) This is all a distraction from the point that "King Bowser" is not a common name, regardless. I don't care if his minions don't talk very much. I don't care if they call him "King Bowser". Ignoring the fact that minions usually overstate the position of their leaders ("Lord Galvatron", "my master", "your highness", and the such). What I care about is whatever the most common name for Bowser is, and that is overwhelmingly "Bowser". TJ Spyke seems to agree, but his opposition is bizarrely based on his dislike of the disambiguation discussion. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 03:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support: Compare the Ghits for Bowser without "King Bowser" to the Ghits for "King Bowser" alone. The results are over 60:1 in favor of "Bowser". I recognize that straight comparing the Ghits for "Bowser" to "King Bowser" would be unfair (given an extra term), so the results for "Bowser" remove any hits that contain the term "King Bowser". If "King Bowser" was near as common a term as Bowser itself, we still might not see 1:1 parity (given the problems with adding terms to a search in google), but the 60:1 ratio undeniably confirms that "Bowser" is the more common of the terms for this character. Add to this the fact that the character is referred to by this name on the official Nintendo website and the choice is clear. -- Exitmoose 01:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Just to comment on my own post here, I think it's disappointing that Ghits weren't brought up in the above discussion regarding Bowser (Nintendo) -> Bowser. Of the 1,370,000 hits for "Bowser" alone, 889,000 hits also contain the word "Mario" and 629,000 hits contain the word "Nintendo". I know it's not relevent to the current discussion, but if this data had been introduced above, when those opposing the move were asking for usage data to back up the claim, this current survey probably would not be taking place. -- Exitmoose 00:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Maybe you should make that request. His English name is King Bowser, or Bowser for short (the same way Princess Peach is sometimes called Peach or Princess Zelda called Zelda). So, the aricle should either be Bowser or King Bowser, not Bowser (Nintendo). TJ Spyke 00:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Mother Brain's name is "Mother Brain", not "Mother Brain (Metroid)". Toad's name is "Toad", not "Toad (Nintendo)". While I think this article should be at Bowser given usage, that doesn't mean that the article should be at King Bowser if it can't be at Bowser (for the reasons described above). "Name (context)" is as well established a convention as any on Wikipedia. -- Exitmoose 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit]  ??

from 1st paragraph:

"(for example in Super Mario Sunshine in which his voice sounds somewhat similar to the Cookie Monster),"

Isn't this more of a fan's opinion? I mean, yes he does sound similar to the Cookie monster, but it is not worth mentioning. "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 02:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Funny

I asked Nintendo themselves what is Biwser's offical name in America, and they said it is Bowser, not King Bowser. I will be changing the title of the article in like a week. "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 00:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Emailing Nintendo does not qualify as "asking Nintendo themselves". - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The reason is? "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 03:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It's original research, not something anyone else can see for themselves. Please, don't move this article; it's name has been the subject of numerous lengthy discussions. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture needs replaced

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4875/300pxbowsermp8ni3.png This is the current Image of Bowser. Please replace the Mario Party 7 Bowser for this one.

Why? It's the exact same character model. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with AMIB that we shouldn't use that model, but I don't think we should use the current one either. We should use the New Super Mario Bros. model, since it's a main game.
Also, AMIB, I left a message on your cruft talk page. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

In Japan, he's always been called Koopa. Though, he's called Bowser outside Japan, Koopa is his family name while Bowser is his given name, according to the Nintendo corporations outside Japan. --PJ Pete

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