Talk:Khmelnytsky Uprising

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Contents 1 1 million Jews killed? 2 Incomplete and misleading 3 Matejko pic question 4 Warbox needed 5 Name - move proposed 6 From Bideleux and Jeffries

[edit] 1 million Jews killed?

This could use a source. Especially as the entire Commonwalth population was ~10,000,000, and I think the Jewish % was around 7-8% of total population. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:41, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Subtelny's Ukraine: a History (p.127–128) says

Within a few months, almost all Polish nobles, officials, and priests had been wiped out or driven from Ukraine. Jewish losses were especially heavy because they were the most numerous and accessible representatives of the szlachta regime. Between 1648 and 1656, tens of thousands of Jews—given the lack of reliable data, it is impossible to establish more accurate figures—were killed by the rebels, and to this day the Khmelnytsky uprising is considered by Jews to be one of the most traumatic events in their history.

This passage is endnoted with the following (sorry for the long quotation):

Estimates of Jews killed in the uprising have been greatly exaggerated in the historiography of the event. According to B. Weinryb, the total of losses reported in Jewish sources is 2.4 million to 3.3 million deaths, clearly a fantastic figure. Weinryb cites the calculations of S. Ettinger indicating that about 50,000 Jews lived in the area where the uprising occurred. See B. Weinryb, "The Hebrew Chronicles on Bohdan Khmelnytsky and the Cossack-Polish War," Harvard Ukrainian Studies 1 (1977): 153-77. While many of them were killed, Jewish losses did not reach the hair-raising figures that are often associated with the uprising. In the words of Weinryb (The Jews of Poland, 193-4), "The fragmentary information of the period—and to a great extent information from subsequent years, including reports of recovery—clearly indicate that the catastrophe may have not been as great as has been assumed."

—Michael Z. 2005-06-8 15:56 Z

I am unaware of any source citing a figure as large as 1,000,000 Jews killed (The entire Jewish population in Eastern Europe at the time was only ~1,300,000!). Most sources, such as Berel Wein's Triumph of Survival, cite "Jewish chronicles" for the figure of well over 300 Jewish communities destroyed and almost 100,000 Jews killed. The largest figure I have seen cited by a reputable historical source is in The Jew in the Modern World (Oxford University Press). It claimed that the uprising "left in its wake hundreds of thousands of of Jewish dead, and, according to one witness, 744 Jewish communities destroyed." However, this figure is not typically found in most authoritative historical studies. In fact while the Jewish Encyclopedia considers the "744" figure "unreliable," it does cite "chronicles" which state that approximately 500,000 Jews were killed [1]. HKT 19:23, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the sources. We could use estimates of Poles and Cossacks deathtoll as well - I will also try to look up something. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:41, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete and misleading

This page is drastically incomplete and thus misleading. One could only wish someone with a competency in history could turn it into something more informative. Compay 10:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Try to be more constructive and at least state clearly what you find is wrong here. That would really help. Halibutt 10:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, this is what I meant: Such sectiions should be added: Causes; Course of the war, at least in broad strokes, with major battles and treaties (with a map of the battles) , Consequences, Meaning for the Ukrainian nation. As the article is now, it has a slight Jewish and Polish POV, and lacks a Ukrainian point, to say nothing of the significance of the uprising for Moldova. Unfortunately I lack now the necessary materials to prepare the amendments, but I am sure someone in Ukraine could at least scan a pre 1973 map of the battles. Compay 00:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OOC, why pre-1973?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Because of copyright ;) [2]Compay 23:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The qoute from the Jewish Encyclopedia has obviously been edited. In one sentence it explains the events and the Jewish point of view, in the next it explains why they were completly at fault. Aside from the point that an Encyclopedia about Jewish history would probably not blame a massive assault on the Jewish commmunity squarley on the shoulders of Jews, it still is obvious that a reputable source would not be this inconsistent. I am removing the passage until I can locate an unedited version.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg

Actually, the quote is exact. Please see the appropriate article in the Jewish Encyclopedia, and read from "Attacks by Cossacks." Whether it is accurate can be debated, but it certainly wasn't manipulated. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Do we want to restore it? I do agree it needs some copyedit and NPOVing. Sometimes the Jewish Encyclopedia has as POVed and outdated version of events as Britannica 1911... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Matejko pic question

Who is the 'saint in the clouds' at Image:Bohdan Chmielnicki z Tuhaj Bejem pod Lwowem Matejko.JPG?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Warbox needed

This needs a Template:Warbox with Template:Campaignbox for the battles.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name - move proposed

In December 2005 the article was moved from "Chmielnicki Uprising" to "Khmelnytskyi Uprising". I have just received a request to move this to "Khmelnytsky Uprising". I decided to put this move for discussion, as we should use the Ch/K spelling variant which is most common in English (per WP:NC). This decision, as Kuban Kazak pointed at my talk, should also result the article about B.Ch/K himself, so we have a consistent naming. For now I did search results on Google Print with the following results: a) Chmielnicki: 267 books b) Khmelnytskyi: 23 books c) Khmelnytsky: 87 books It would appear that the correct move should be back to Chmielnicki Uprising. Any comments?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Well the big one is the Russian version Khmelnitsky 1590 books. So make your conclusions, but consistency has to be applied with the uprsing and the man himself. I would personally move right now the article to Khmelnysky Uprising and then continue the discussion/survey at Talk:Bohdan Khmelnytsky.--Kuban Cossack 16:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Not however that this search is in regards to general name, rather then specific person.

--Molobo 16:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Note the difference between hits and books. Khmelnitsky gives actually 271 books, so we now have one of those situations were two names have virtually the same popularity. Eh. I certainly agree we should use the same name for the man and for the uprising. I will move the article per your suggestion now for technical reasons (same name).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, that was the main reason of asking anyway. I think we should settle on this name, for one his legacy is certainly more relevant to Ukrainian history than Polish or Russian, and he was Ukrainian himself. So if you're happy then its a finished discussion...because right now - I am happy. --Kuban Cossack 11:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't see what would prevent us from moving it back and forth if we started, and it is probably better to leave the article at the spelling prefered by people who view him as a hero then those who see him as a villain. So I guess for now the move discussion is settled. There is however one more issue to address: how to call him in articles - i.e. if and when we are allowed to us 'Chmielnicki' in article's?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From Bideleux and Jeffries

Robert Bideleux and Ian Jeffries, A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change, Routledge (1998), ISBN 0-415-16111-8 (hardcover), ISBN 0-415-16112-6 (paperback), p. 138 has a somewhat different take on this. The following is verbatim:

In 1640 and 1644 Podolia and Volynia were ravaged by marauding Crimean Tatars, who made off with thousands of captives. These raids prompted King Wladyslaw IV to plan a major military campaign against the Crimean Tatars and their Ottoman overlords in alliance with Muscovy and the Dnieper Cossacks, who were promised substantial shares of the spoils. However the Sejm did not trust Wladyslaw IV and managed to obstruct his preparations in 1647–48, whereupon the already armed and mobilized Dnieper Cossacks ran amok under their unsavoury and opportunistic military leader Bogdan Chmilenicki (Khmelnitsky), who now made common cause with the Crimean Tatars against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This Cossack rebellion, combined with several disastrously bungled attempts to bring the Cossacks to heel, ignited a massive explosion of peasant unrest in the Ukraine. At that time the Ukraine was home to a large number of runaway serfs, religious dissenters and peasants hostile to the soutward spread of Polish-Lithuanian landlordism, serfdom, and rack-renting Jewish ‘middlemen’. To a far greater extent than anyone could have foreseen in 1648, the Cossach--cum-peasant rebellion was to have deadly consequences. These abruptly terminated the 'golden age' of the Rzeczpospolita and heralded its long and calamitous decline (1648–1795). Numerous weaknesses and portents of decline can of course be detected before 1648, but until that year the Rzeczpospolita was to all appearances riding high.

Hope some of that is useful; it should certainly qualify as a citable, reliable source. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)