Talk:Khene

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[edit] Which came first?!?

This article calls the Khene the first free reed; The Sheng also claims to be the first. Which is it? I'm reworking the Accordion and Free reed aerophone articles and I know the sheng is the link to the accordion, but I want the early history straight. --Theodore Kloba 20:51, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

These instruments (or, more properly, their antecedents) were developed so many thousands of years ago there is no way to know, so there shouldn't be any claims made either way. Neither instrument exists in exactly the same form it was in centuries ago. Because China had a writing culture further back than that of Southeast Asia one might think the sheng is older, but then again the Chinese sheng as used in the music of the Chinese royal court could have come from a prototype instrument originating in Yunnan or parts further south (i.e. the mountains of Laos and Thailand), where mouth organs are used as a traditional instrument today in great profusion.

Anyway, it's almost certainly not the case that any mouth organ was the "first free reed" as the Jew's harp is a much simpler version of the free reed, not coupled to a tube resonator. There are also free reed horns and free reed pipes that represent simpler and probably earlier versions of free reed wind instruments the same way the Egyptian double clarinet or Greek aulos probably came before the bagpipe. By the way, I study and play both sheng and khaen.  :-0

Good luck with the articles. Badagnani 21:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalisation

Is the capitalisation of the "Western diatonic scale: A-B-c-d-e-f-g." intentional? If so, perhaps a link should be added that explains the significance of the A and B being capitalised. -- Frekja 12:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The A and B are in a lower octave, and the small letters begin the next octave. In the case of a medium-sized khaen with lowest pipe A, this would mean that the lowest note on the instrument is A (two ledger lines below the treble clef). Badagnani 16:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

• Khaen is a very interesting instrument indeed. Although the information provided here stated that the instrument has the western diatonic scale but actually Khaen is a very versatile instrument which can play CHROMATIC SCALE!!!! Not long ago, a wooodwind musician from BSO (Bangkok Symphony Orchestra) ,who was invited to a varieties show televised in Thailand a year ago, had displayed the instrument's chromatical capabilities by performing some jazz pieces (which requires a lot of sharp and flat notes)on it!!He explained that Khaen (pronounced as 'can')is the only Thai traditional musical instrument that can play chromatic scales. I was amazed by that and I believe that there are still many people out there (and even in Thailand)who do not know about this fact, so I'm just dropped by to add new informations to you. Rachmaninoff

It is not true that the khaen (the normal 16-pipe variety) has a chromatic scale; it is tuned to a minor scale, starting with the lowest pipe. But there are two chromatic intervals: between the second and third note and the fifth and sixth notes. Perhaps the player was singing the in-between notes or (more unlikely) that he had a specially constructed instrument with chromatic notes. The khaen is also not the only Thai instrument that can play chromatically; the fiddles saw ou, saw duang, saw sam sai, salaw, etc. can do that as well. Badagnani 17:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Oh yeah, come to think of it. True. Those fiddles can play even out-of-tune sounds so what's the big deal with chromatic scales. But Badagnani, I don't think the guy had either modified his khaen or constructed a special chromatical Khaen. It's the 'method' that he used to play it which i don't know exactly. But I tell you, I really believe it is not impossible to play chromatic scales on ordinary Khaen. I suppose you are a specialist in Khaen or at least must have had much experience on it (or not at all?)and I am a greenhorn in this so unless I've succeeded in playing it chromatically myself, I won't argue no more. I have been experimenting new methods of playing 'Klui' in more flexible chromatic keys and it's progressing. By the way, I haven't been using the 'half-closed' method. Any idea? Rachmaninoff

I just played the khaen for the first day of my world music class today. The Chinese sheng and Japanese sho can do microtones by "bending up" the way a blues harmonica can bend down for the "blue notes" -- this is done by gradually removing the finger from the hole. This can get you up to a minor third bend higher. I've never tried this on khaen (it isn't a traditional technique) but maybe I'll see if I can do it right now. Are you in Thailand? I'm in a Thai ensemble that was the first "farang" Thai classical ensemble to tour Thailand, in 1998. I'd say it would be easier to play khlui in half steps with the Western-tuned khluis; with a Thai-tuned one you'd be in 14-tone equal temperament -- something we've tried here with piano. It sounds pretty weird! Badagnani 16:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I just tried it and it is possible to bend a half step up (but not quite a whole step) by sliding the finger slightly off the hole. Funny that I never thought to try this; it's not easy, though, and unreliable because of the control it takes, because the holes are so small. I wonder if the guy had enlarged the holes to allow for greater control, like on the sheng, where the holes are at least twice as large and faced with metal. Badagnani 16:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• =) Yeah, I always feel that the sliding-off-the-hole method is unreliable. I'm a Thai and I'm in Thailand. I never heard of your farang-oriented Thai classical ensemble before (probably it's because at that time,1998, I wasn't in Thailand) But that's very interesting. Are you interested in western classical music and music composition too? (Are you in Thailand now?)

Rachmaninoff