Template talk:Kentucky Higher Education

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	Kentucky Portal Template:Kentucky Higher Education is within the scope of WikiProject Kentucky, an open collaborative effort to coordinate work for and sustain comprehensive coverage of Kentucky and related subjects in the Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, and even become a member. [Template Usage] [Watch Project Articles] [Project Talk]
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Did you consider adding the major private universities in KY? Or at least the ones that have WP articles? Rogerd 16:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Under Community/Technical, I changed 'Lexington' to 'Bluegrass Community and Technical.' --Robby 04:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What's included

Are we only to include colleges and universities based in Kentucky, and not include colleges/universities (based elsewhere) with campuses in Kentucky? If so, why? Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 04:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A College or University has the opportunity to decide its location, but cannot claim multiple locations as its "home".Chris24 05:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I can understand that, but the template says nothing about the colleges/universities being based or having their "home" in Kentucky. It looks like a list of colleges/universities in Kentucky. IMHO, either the template should clear that up, or we should list all colleges/universities with a presence in Kentucky. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 05:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I always try for a compromise, but also would hate to see this turn into a list of anything and everything that could be construed to be called higher education (i.e. Bubba's School of shoe repair). You are correct that the template is Kentucky Higher Education, so I added ITT, McKendree, U of Phoenix, & Webster as these schools have a brick and mortar location in KY, are accredited by the US Dept. of Ed., and offer four year degrees. Chris24 00:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, what about a section for "Colleges with campuses in Kentucky" or something of that ilk? I just can't get past how weird it looks to have "Indiana Wesleyan" and "University of Phoenix" on the list, especially since sometimes the main articles barely mention (if at all) that they have a presence in Kentucky.

Also, I understand the logic for removing unaccredited schools, but I suppose we could have an "Unaccredited Schools" section as well. I don't want to see the template grow into an unwieldy beast, and I'm not married to the "Unaccredited Schools" idea by any means, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. At least we could include that section in List of colleges and universities in Kentucky.

Acdixon 13:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This list should not contain everything that is in List of colleges and universities in Kentucky. There are just too many for this purpose. IMO, it should be limited to Kentucky based colleges, and should not include lesser known unaccredited schools. There are similar templates for other states, like {{Public colleges and universities in Indiana}} and {{State University System of Florida}} that are limited to public universities, but I think as long as the Kentucky list is not exhaustive, this template will be ok. --rogerd 14:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

rogerd may be onto something here. For all our efforts, we've still left off Draughons Junior College and Brown Mackie College, both of which have institutions in Kentucky. Going to an all-public template may make some sense. Even I had to chuckle when I saw "Frontier School of Midwifery and Family Nursing" appear on the template. Perhaps we could reduce the template to all public schools (keep the community and technical colleges?) and include a link on the template to List of colleges and universities in Kentucky, where we could include an exhaustive, neatly categorized list (perhaps even including Chris24's beloved "Bubba's School of shoe repair" LOL).

OK, I added those schools because the discussion was started because I removed McKendree from the template because it is based in Illinois. Since the discussion now leans towards a less inclusive list, I went ahead and removed schools that are not headquartered in KY and one not accredited by US DOE. I did leave a few others in because they are accredited and based in KY, and actually learned something when I initially added one of them. Despite the seemingly old-fashioned name Frontier School of Midwifery and Family Nursing, I learned that nurses highly regard the school[1]. Clear Creek Baptist Bible College I also left in the list as it has almost the same student population as Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and almost double Lexington Theological Seminary. I also left those schools in because to remove them could appear as not having NPOV. One of the reasons that I had mentioned accredidation as it is one way to try to keep the schools that are included as brief as possible. As of now, the template only includes KY public schools and US DOE accredited private schools based in KY that offer 4 year degrees (if anyone thinks any criteria should be different, go ahead and put it on the talk page and anytime it seems that their is some kind of a consensus anybody can change the page). If you agree with the list as it is now, please comment. If you think something is wrong, please comment also. I am trying to find a balance where nobody feels offended that a particular school is not listed by having a set standard as to what qualifies a school for inclusion to avoid an unwieldy list of every school in the state (such as Bubba's :)Chris24 00:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Chris24. Even though templates for other states only include public universities, Kentucky, being a smaller state, has fewer overall colleges and universities, so I think that including private institutions that are accredited and based in the state will leave a sufficently managable list. My opinion, for what it's worth. By the way, the Frontier School of Midwifery and Family Nursing is actually a post graduate school awarding only Master of Science in Nursing degrees. --rogerd 01:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

In regards to Frontier School of Midwifery and Family Nursing, do you think it should be included? If not, I would think there would have to be a criteria for it's removal (such as being highly specialized by not offering a variety of degrees), but that criteria would also mean the exclusion of most religious schools as they are also highly specialized by not offering a wide variety of degrees. If you lean toward removal, maybe have another template for Specialized Kentucky Colleges and Universities or one on Kentucky Higher Education on Religious Studies? Im am trying to find some consensus so nobody will feel any need to edit it and agree with any criteria for inclusion. Chris24 01:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't necessarily arguing for removal. I don't think it is any more specialized than seminaries, which are also typically graduate only schools awarding Masters or Doctorates in Religion or Theology only. In fact, I think that the Frontier School is an interesting addition for anyone interested in Kentucky higher education, and I personally think it should be retained.--rogerd 21:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Although the template could be considered a bit overly inclusive, I agree with rogerd. Maybe some schools are a bit specialized, but it seems that there has been an agreement that if the school is public it is included, and if it is KY based private, US DOE accredited, and offers 4 year degrees it is also included. If a particular school isn't within this criteria, it is nothing personal, but it is not included. Chris24 04:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I can go along with that. Seems like the most objective criteria we can establish. BTW, since we seem to have some people who care about Education in Kentucky here, how about giving a look to my draft article on Education in Kentucky? You can find it as one of my personal subpages here. I've been unable to generate any feedback from the WikiProject Kentucky talk page. I'd like to add the article as a daughter article to Kentucky. Acdixon 14:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Education in Kentucky looks good and I am glad you went ahead and made it a page. Chris24 00:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. You were the only one to provide any feedback, so I thought if I just put it out there, maybe that would get people's attention. ;) Acdixon 13:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone just removed accreditation information for Simmons College of Kentucky. I checked it out and only found mention of being an applicant for accreditation by the Association for Biblical Higher Education[2]. Do we leave them on the template under the assumption that they will be accredited? Should we change them to Unaccredited schools on List of colleges and universities in Kentucky? Acdixon 17:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I had added the accreditation to the Simmons article based on petersons.com stating that it was accredited, but when looking to add it back with references I couldn't find a 2nd reference. Ersys.com doesn't have it being accredited at all and the Courier-Journal has an article stating that it plans to apply to the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Simmons isn't on the template because it's not US DOE accredited, and that accreditation is why I added missing schools such as Clear Creek and Frontier School. Since one source says it is accredited and one says it is planning to be accredited, I don't see any reason to put it under unaccredited at List of colleges and universities in Kentucky because the school is working to change that. Maybe a notation that it is in applicant status for accreditation? --Chris24 01:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why a college needs to be accredited in any particular way to be listed in the template. It's just a list of colleges in Kentucky. Simmons appears to be based in Kentucky. So it makes sense for it to be there. What am I missing? Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 23:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

This just keeps us from listing any diploma mills on the template. I could say I started a college in Kentucky out of my house and start printing diplomas. Without the accreditation requirement, I could list my "college" on the template. Acdixon 14:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand this, but Simmons appears to have quite a rich history, and associations with U of L. This seems to be an exception to the rule. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 14:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It looks from the above conversation as though they will be accredited soon, if they aren't already. We just had to have some kind of criteria for inclusion, and accreditation seemed like a natural one. If you have another suggestion for criteria, I know I'd be happy to consider it. Acdixon 17:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I already suggested it, but I will simplify it: Accreditation (previous or current) and/or historical significance. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 17:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

But how does one determine 'historical significance' in an objective way? Acdixon 18:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

By reading that the school has a substantial history in the city and thus isn't a fly-by-night operation. That is, unless, the article is currently full of mischaracterizations. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

To be more specific, I have a copy of The Encyclopedia of Louisville, and there is an entry for "Simmons University". This was the first black college in Kentucky. I think that fact should seal the deal. I'll add a reference to the article. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 19:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, I have no problem with that. Generally speaking, however, historical significance is not the kind of solidly objective criterion I'm used to. I suppose I can live with it if everyone else can. Acdixon 19:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what is subjective about being the first college for African Americans in the state, and it's still in operation. So, it's a current and notable college that deserves inclusion. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 19:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

That's what I said. I don't have a problem with this case specifically. But the general notion of 'historical significance' as a criterion concerns me a little because in some cases it can be subjective. That's all I'm saying. Acdixon 19:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)