User talk:Kehrli

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Hi Kehrli, I will support you in the argument that m/z is not unitless, because it clearly is not. People claiming that it is are apparently using a stupid trick whereby they divide the mass and the charge by 1 Dalton and the elementary charge to form supposedly unitless quantities. Idiocy. In that case, we can make anything unitless. Like, we can make my heaight to mass ratio unitless by dividing my mass by 1 kg, and my height by 1 m. What does it accomplish? Nothing. I agree with you 100%. Spectrometrists seem to have had a hard time with units over the decades, inventing such perverse things as the "wavenumber," (cm-1), so this doesn't surprise me that much. Ed Sanville 23:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] m/z

Yo. My name's Corbin. I understand your frustration. Listen, the guys at Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics might be able to help you out with reforming the concensus on this particular scientific unit. Leave a note on the talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics, and see if anybody's interested. We have rules here, and they can be a royal pain in the ass sometimes (not unlike Imperial Standard), but as a community we try to be constructive, not destructive. You have a username and you know what you're talking about in terms of knowledge. You can be a part of this grand experiment in creating a commonwealth of information. Drop me a line at User talk:CorbinSimpson if you need help, okay? Happy editing! - CorbinSimpson 04:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] thanks

Ed, Corbin, thank you guys for your support. In some way this is really frustrating, but in another way this is a very exciting social experiment. Look at it this way: we try to fight a misconception that can very analytically be proven wrong. We try to explain this to smart people that should be experts in the field (the mass spectrometrists). If this is so hard, how can you ever hope to fight other misconceptions that can not analyticaly be proven (e.g. in politics) to common people that are not experts in the field? It is kind of frightning. Kehrli 14:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why I voted "delete" on your article

Hi Kehrli, I noticed you apparently singled me out in your criticism of the deletion votes on your article. I can understand your frustration, and I will readily admit that I'm every bit as ignorant of this field as you thought I was.

My own (and I suppose many of the other voters') only reason for opposing this article has been the idea that Wikipedia should not be seen to advocate one thought over another, even if we have knowledgable editors here who are very certain that this thought is correct. Our policy on "Original research" states explicitly:

"An edit counts as original research if it proposes ideas or arguments. That is, if it does any of the following:

  • it introduces a theory or method of solution;
  • it introduces original ideas;
  • it defines new terms;
  • it provides new definitions of pre-existing terms;
  • it introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;
  • it introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing the analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;
  • it introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source."

Now, you yourself say above that "we try to fight a misconception that can very analytically be proven wrong. We try to explain this to smart people that should be experts in the field (the mass spectrometrists)" - which seems to indicate the idea you are promoting is not commonly accepted knowledge among a significant part of the scientific community. In which case, Wikipedia is not the vehicle to tell these guys what to do and what not to do.

I think nobody would have a problem if you wrote something along the lines of "Many practicioners of mass spectrometry use the unit m/z; however, many other physicists have argued that this is incorrect, and that m/q should be used instead, for the following reasons..." That would certainly be useful addition. It would of course also be a matter of fairness to add why those other guys prefer m/z - surely, they must have some reason for doing so? --Lukas (T.|@) 20:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nice job on Thomson (unit)

Just wanted to stop by and say that you did a fairly good job on Thomson (unit). It is still a little confusing but I think it isn't too misleading or incorrect. It isn't too much of a leap for the reader to figure things out given teh example. Congrats. One bit of criticism: your PDF link is to Groucho Marx?--Nick Y. 23:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feed back. The article was on Kmurrays web site and he changed it into a Grucho Marx picture. Nice joke!

[edit] Mass Spectrum

I would like to invite you to discuss your totally disputed tag on Mass spectrum. Thank you for finding any errors, however you need to point them out for me to be able to correct them. I would remind you again that if you can not backup your claims with specific uses of m/q (Th) in the scientific literature within the context of mass spectrometry it will go nowhere. Please I am waiting for your sources not your interpretation of guidance documents and novel suggestions of what is the best path forward for the greater scientific community. Please act in good faith under the policies of wikipedia. Please stop removing my disputed tags on Thomson (unit) related articles. I am acting in good faith by not editing them but simply waiting for your sources and noting that it is in dispute. I very seriously dispute the content of those articles and have yet to see new sources added and those that are there contradict the content of the article. I have been very patient. I will not engage in an argument with you. Cite your sources and I will cite mine.--Nick Y. 17:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration

Please visit Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Kehrli and participate in our new binding arbitration proceedings regarding Thomson (unit), Mass-to-charge ratio, Mass spectrum and your behavior of removing dipute tags without stating a reason. See you there.--Nick Y. 17:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note on template use

Please do not post warnings for vandalism on Nick Y.'s userpage. I do not believe he has engaged in any sort of vandalism. Rather, from what I have seen in RFA, there appears to be a content dispute.Aranherunar 12:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Aranherunar, I did not like to place this warning. Unfortunately I was forced to place it. By Nick and his disturbing behaviour. Here is a short list of what he did:
  • Nick himself thinks this is no longer a content dispute and therefore requested RFA.
  • Prior to this he requested a mediation which went quite well and we found strict rules for a truce. (I would leave alone his mass spectra article and he would leave alone the mass-to-charge ratio article.
  • However, soon afterwards he engaged in a request for deletion of the mass-to-charge ratio article, thereby breaking the truce.
  • Also, he repetedly placed tags on pages without giving reasons why.
  • After I changed the article according to his wishes he still placed the tags
  • When asked for references to prove his ideas to be in line with international conventions in ISO 31 he did not reply but just showed examples of old literature using outdated notations.
regarding the disruptive behaviour of Nick and his constant pushing of minority POV I would say the line between vandalism and content dispute (he no longer uses arguments to prove his case, he just uses lobbying) is very blurred.
What would you recommend I should do? --Kehrli 12:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Nobody forced you to do anything. You can do whatever you like, and the only thing to keep in mind is follow the rules. Putting a warning is to remind the user not to do something that breaks the rule - which is of no value if you are "forced to do it". Moreover, I think you have a major misunderstanding of what Vandalism is. Vandalism is, from WP:VANDAL, "any addition, deletion, or change to content, made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia." Filing a RFA is absolutely not vandalism, and your warning template in his user talkpage is a misuse. You can simply keep your head cool, read more about the rules, and be nice. Wikipedians here generally give people a lot of chances. Good luck. Aranherunar 13:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Nick should be blocked from editing any mass spectrometer articles as long as he does not keep to the rules of our truce, as long as he continuously placed tags without giving reasons why, and as long as he places RAF against me only because I edit according to the terms established in the IUPAC green book. As far as I understand the Wikipedia rules, the only way I can ask for his blocking is to place those warnings first, even though I don't really want to. What would you do in my place?? --Kehrli 14:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Let others, more experienced users decide for you. Since he has filed a RFA there would be plenty of people that has the ability to resolve the dispute. Personally I don't think he deserves to be blocked or warned, and your warning template was terribly misused, because the person has not in any way engaged in any vandalism. If what you said was accurate, he has only been in an edit war, and will be treated as such. Filing a RFA does not in any way breaks Wikipedia rules - it is the process of trying to secure it. If the RFA is wrong, it would be rejected, and you would not be in any way harmed. I do not know how you have personally been offended, but warning him for something he did not do, i.e. Vandalism (see WP:VANDAL for an explanation of what is Vandalism), is not the right way to solve the problem. I do not know much about the content dispute you two are getting into; if I were you, I would keep calm and let the things cool down, and try to hear what others are saying, because most of the times the problem is a major misunderstanding (I would suggest you to read more about Wikipedia Policies in this case because you seem to have misunderstood some important points). Actually, I believe it is you, not him, who actually broke the rules so far, but that is hardly relevant to what I am saying. Having a content dispute and being in an edit war does not justify the use of the vandalism warning, and, again, if it is deserved, it will be put there by other users. Aranherunar 15:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, you did persuad me. I did remove the warnings and wait for the arbitration. Could you please give me a hint where I broke the rules? --Kehrli 18:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
For example, this, a very, very long edit war and very close to breaking the 3RR for both of you (You have made 3 reverts on 22nd July, 3 reverts from 1st to 2nd August in less than 24 hours, etc.). These edit wars generally do not help anyone, and even if you did not break the 3RR, in " severe cases of abuse, warring parties who persist in punitive editing may be subject to arbitration." (from WP:EW). I see nearly 15 removals of the "Disputed" tag - which is a very unneeded editing war, in my opinion, because it really isn't that important, because, since you are edit warring, the matter is obviously not settled, and putting a tag up there helps. The edit war is not needed. If Nick broke your "truce", let him break it, and talk with him about it. Don't go to the article and start editing again, because it only makes matters worse. I'm going to drop this matter and let more experienced users do their job. Goodbye. Aranherunar 04:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tony Sidaway 19:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] physical quantities, dimension, and measurement

you made some recent edits to Physical constant that appears to be based on the same kind of issue you have with mass spectrometry and dimension. may i suggest that you take a look at natural units, planck units, nondimensionalization and some of the lit in physics about this. just as when one counts tick marks (a dimensionless number) on a ruler when they measure length, when we use any measuring instrument to read a physical quantity it was designed for results in a fundamentally dimensionless number. it's in the interpretation of that reading and knowledge of what it uses as a standard to measure the physical quantity, that we attach units to the reading. r b-j 02:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

i moved it back to your talk page, since it started here. the simplest thing is to respond here. i have now clicked the watch flag for this page. but, i would recommend that the rest of the discussion go to the Talk:Physical constant page.
Rbj, I agree with Ed and I think you changed back for worse the article of Physical constant. Please read Talk:Physical_constant#Removed_paragraph for a more detailed explanation. Please think about it and let me know your conclusions. --Kehrli 10:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
well, if you look at Ed's page where we had the discussion, i think you'll see with this edit that he doesn't agree with you about this and that his and my disagreement became one of semantics and convention. but the edits you did to Physical constant are about substantive understanding of physics, not mere semantics and convention. i'm gonna take the rest of this to the Talk:Physical constant page because it's about that. give it an hour, i'll have some response/information for you. r b-j 03:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above. Kehrli is banned for one year from articles which relate to m/z. Kehrli is prohibited for two years from changing the notation m/z, wherever found, to any other notation. Should Kehrli violate any ban placed on him by this decision or engage in substitution of notation, he may be blocked for an appropriate time. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kehrli#Log of blocks and bans.

For the Arbitration Committee. FloNight 18:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Kehrli, I blocked you for 24 hours for violating the article ban by editing Mass-to-charge ratio [1] and M/z [2]. During the time of this block you should not edit any part of Wikipedia. FloNight 23:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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