From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Karamanoğlu article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This articleis within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states. If you would like to participate, visit the project page to join.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. (FAQ).
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no
WP Former Countries - Things to do: Open tasks for WikiProject Former countries      Edit Correct links: Correct any wikilinks that you find anywhere on Wikipedia where the link is to the wrong version of the state. Some examples of bad links: Referring to the former Free City of Lübeck (an independent entity for 711 years), but the link goes to the modern city of Lübeck. Referring to Napoleon's France, where the link instead goes to modern France. Create redirects: If the article for the correct state does not yet exist, create a redirect to the nearest existing article (if possible) and place {{WPFC|class=Needed}} on the redirect's talk page. Whether or not a redirect has been created, list the wanted article below under "Needed". Article improvement After performing any of these tasks, re-rate the entry via the WPFC banner, and remove the article from the relevant list. Expand: Confederation of the Rhine, Straits Settlements, Belgian Congo, Free City of Lübeck, Kingdom of Ireland, North German Confederation, Spanish East Indies Stubs: Adamawa Emirate, Baranya-Baja Republic, Kingdom of Redonda, Piratini Republic, United States of Colombia Needed: Kingdom of Bavaria Nyasaland Assess: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, German East Africa, Orange Free State Articles requiring particular elements After providing the requested element, please remove the relevant tag from the article's WPFC banner and remove the article from this list. Flag: Alta California, Baranya-Baja Republic, Bishopric of Liège, Duchy of Lucca, Lordship of Ireland, Mexican Empire Coat of Arms: Adamawa Emirate, Anjouan, Baranya-Baja Republic, Confederation of the Equator, New Spain, West Florida Map: Baranya-Baja Republic, California Republic, Republic of Manitoba Venezuela (second republic) Infobox: Anjouan, Austrian Empire, Baranya-Baja Republic, Belgian Congo, Orange Free State Quality watch: 5 FA-Class former country articles - 7 GA-Class former country articles.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list for Karamanoğlu:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. Wikipedians in Turkey may be able to help!

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Turkey may be able to help!

[edit] Comments

[edit] Founder

It is not true that the founder of the Karaman beylik was armenian. The founder of the Karaman beylik was an Turkmen bey (warlord). Therefore I have removed that part, to be sure I have checked a few books and found absolute no reference of armenian origins of the Karaman beylik.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. It is well documented in the Encyclopædia Britannica. If you don't have access to the book, in short, it references that Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was the son of an Armenian convert to Islam, who married one of the Seljuk Sultan's daughters. So technically that would make him half-Armenian, but people are usually identified by the father's identity, so I think that justifies him as an Armenian enough. Eiríkr Rauði 18:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

You are completely wrong, there is no evidence pointing to this in seljuk or other Turkish chronicles of its time. There is absolutely no evidence in any Turkish history book and no historian has ever claimed that. During the seljuk times the lingua franga of the seljuk bureaucracie was persian and arab, the common public spoke turkish but the elites spoke persian and arab. It was Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey who after declaring independence from the seljuk empire that Turkish was the sole language of the nation. His exact words were "From now on Turkish wil be spoken in the medrese (schools), in the mosques and by the elites" in 1291. There is no credibility of the claim that he has armenian roots at all, Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was a fierce Turkish nationalist, it is because of him that Turkish language prevailed in Anatolia. Therefore I have removed the outrageous lie.

The karaman clan has its roots in central asia, they were one of the many Turkish (Turkmen) clans to enter anatolia after the battle of manzikert. There are many Turkish sources pointing to this. Most Turkish sources and historians have this to write about the Karamanogullari dynasty. "Karamanogullari dynasty was from Nure Sufi Bey who was the son of Ahmed Sâdeddin Bey, one of the beys of Kacar tribe among Oguz people. Nûre Sûfî Bey was married with the paternal aunt of Eretna Bey."

Nuri Sufi Bey's actual name is Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin, meaning Nûre Sûfî the son of Sâdeddin. Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin was a clan leader of this Turkmen (Turcoman) tribe who had left central asia their homeland fleeing the mongols. First they went to Iran and from there to Azerbaidjan and then they went to the seljuk empire were Sultan Alâeddin Keykubad (1220-1237) setled them in Ermenek vilâyet (province). After Nûre Sûfî's dead Kerimüddin Karaman his son became the clan leader, it was he Kerimüddin Karaman wo is attributed as the founder of the Karaman dynasty.

It clearly says that they were oguz Turks belonging to the larger Kacar clan, the kacars still exist to this day in Turkey and in some parts of Iran. Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was also not the founder of the karamanoglu dynasty.

If anybody wants information about it please mail me (dennis_73@hotmail.com) Im more than willing to provide evidence. I have read many Turkish and non Turkish historians none of them claimed this, I wonder where Encyclopædia Britannica got his information from is there a reference???? Orrin 73

Here is a reference I found about Karamanoglu dynasty. In time I will provide more! http://212.174.26.236/goksu/regionalhistory.html http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_01_26.htm

Encyclopædia Britannica makes the mistake by probably referencing historians Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi. A scientific research done by Historian Şehabettin Tekindağ in 1947 found out that Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi made the mistake of misunderstanding Ebu'l-Fidâ. Where they came to the conlusion that the karamanids were armenians. Şehabettin Tekindağ and some other historians have disproven that fact. Here is a credible source from a Turkish university about the issue, altough the reference is written in Turkish hopefully it will be translated in English sometime in the future. http://www.cumhuriyet.edu.tr/akademik/fak_ilahiyat/der3/3arboyacioglu.htm

You guys were all right. Thanks for clearing it up. It was hust Armenian propaganda, because an Armenian first told me that he was Armenian and that it is referenced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica... I'll have to think before trusting propaganda-driven Armenians again, especially in matters which can easily provoke hostile Armenian Genocide discussions and Armenian vs. Turk wars. Mmm, I don't get why they have a grudge on the Turks. I mean, the people were and are not at fault, as they did not carry out the genocide nor did they co-operate. There is no reason to apologize. :/ Eiríkr Rauði 17:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Re-added the flag of Karamans.193.140.194.103 09:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Did a bit of copy-editing. IMO, the article could use a few more dates to show when key events occurred. Mary Read 06:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I will add more dates.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 20:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The flag

Error, rebooting universe... Am I drunk, or did I just see a flag with the Star of David as the flag of the Karamans?? I hope that some one can bring concrete harder than a rock references for that one. I just looked at the Candaroglu article that has the same flag, I looked at the reasoning behind it, however, we still should have good sources for that one..Baristarim 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)