Talk:Kara Borden

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This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard. This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Kara Borden is part of WikiProject Pennsylvania, which is building a comprehensive and detailed guide to Pennsylvania on Wikipedia. To participate, you can edit the attached article, join or discuss the project. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

This page was previously nominated for deletion. Please see prior discussions before considering re-nomination: no consensus, 24 January 2007, see discussion. keep, subject to review in a few months, 16 Nov 2005, see discussion.

Contents 1 Date Of Birth 1.1 Dispute 1.2 Question of Style 1.3 WP:BLP 2 Dispute resolution 2.1 Solutions 3 Unprotect

[edit] Date Of Birth

Please note that the date of birth has been on this article since November 2005. If someone now wishes to revert it please follow the dispute resolution process. Tommypowell 01:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

It is clear that there is a content dispute regarding the DoB in this article. I have requested page protection until disputes can be resolved. Any objections to informal mediation? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 22:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

What value is it to know her birthday? Steve Dufour 19:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Birth date should be given as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). --Yamla 19:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There are additional rules for living persons. Steve Dufour 19:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite applicable policy so that we know where you are coming from? Also if someone could briefly summarize the conflict would be helpful also. Regards, Navou ^banter / _{review me} 19:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question of Style

Are there any public sources for the inclusion of the DoB? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 19:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:BLP

I have undertaken to remove the date of birth per our biographies of living persons policy that exact dates of birth of living people be used only with extreme caution and only in cases of clear notability. To wit, When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date. This person is an extremely minor figure whose life has been entangled in a tragic murder case and thus been thrust unwillingly into the spotlight. The date should only be included after extremely careful consideration of the issues involved. FCYTravis 22:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute resolution

Per FCYTravis (talk • contribs), this is no longer a dispute resolution issue as s/he has edited over the protected version per policy concerns. Any objections to unprotection? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You knew the policy before this started, as did Tommypowell (one of the edit war-ers). (I don't think you participated in this one, but he definitely did.) It won't be unprotected until the users who were edit-warring have agreed on a solution (or one of them is blocked). Cbrown1023 talk 03:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 03:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• I would like to file complaints and dispute resolutions in this matter against FCYTravis for his unsupported edit over protection and Cbrown1023 for his repeated threats to block me for reposting deleted information which was on articles for 2 years without complaints. There is no policy barring birthdates for public figures who have been the subjects of massive international media coverage. Would someone tell me how to file complaints against these 2 users?Tommypowell 14:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• side note: Politely and without commenting on the editors, only the edits (I can not stress enough, this style is important) list at WP:ANI. After a day I am going to move these two messages to the archives. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solutions

Does anyone have any proposed solutions? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• I think the solution is within the BLP which clearly does not bar birthdates for "widely known people" where the date is "available to the public". Clearly here we are dealing with persons subject to massive international media coverage whose birthdates are readily available globally via a 10 second google search-mooting the BLP concern for "identity theft". End of story. The BLP makes no exceptions on the basis of age, alleged crime victim status or occupation. The "other camp" seems to be saying that any editor can arbitrarily remove birthdates from any article they want by stating "notability is in doubt" and threatening to block users who restore the information, no matter how well sourced. This seems to me a road Wikipedia doesn't want to be on. This is an encyclopedia not a privacy protection service. Going down this path would allow any user to take down any birthdate on any whim within the mind of that user. That is the death knell of an encyclopedia.Tommypowell 15:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a valid point, can anyone address it? Also, feel free to propose other solutions. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 16:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not see a reliable source for her birthday yet. Regardless of all else, could someone please provide one. Do not provide a primary source, messages on a bulletin board or a google search. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• It was on the article for 2 years. Look in the edit section. 68.230.130.19 17:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Tommy Powell

That was a google search that found a forum post. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Noooo-it is a newspaper article.Tommypowell 19:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The domain name "www.google.com" does not belong to a newspaper. Link a newspaper article directly here. Thank you. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It is in the Lancaster New Era newspaper published in Lancaster, PA-November 22, 2005. You can sign up for the archives and read the whole article or click here-http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=lancaster+new+era%22+kara+borden%22+ludwig+2+06+91&btnG=Search and look at the first result. If you question the source give specific language from the BLP using quotation marks. Tommypowell 20:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I purchased the article from their archives. It does not have her birthdate. Please donate $2.95 to the wikimedia foundation for decieving me. I will no longer engage in discussion with you untill confirmation of your donation is sent to my attention. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is another source-http://holidayresource.infoctionary.com/CALENDAR/DATE/2007-02-06 You claim to have purchased the article-post a link here and I will pay you the $2.95.68.230.130.19 20:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Tommypowell 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The tenth paragraph reads, in totality, "A holster." You cannot read the full article without my login. Please send me confirmation of your donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• Your answer makes no sense to me. Again-here is ANOTHER source-http://holidayresource.infoctionary.com/CALENDAR/DATE/2007-02-06 Tommypowell 20:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• • $2.95. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• Discussion at WP:AN/I appears to be for enforcement of BLP for this instance. BLP overrides consensus. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 00:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotect

I've requested that the article be unprotected. I don't see a problem since Tommypowell has been blcoked. Aside from occasional support from Navou no one else really wanted the birthday in the article, and Navou acknowledged that WP:BLP was more important than consensus in this instance. So if you object, comment here. Otherwise, we can unprotect and get back to editing. AniMate 02:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)