Talk:Kanon/Archive 2

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Contents 1 GA nomination 2 Good Article Review 2.1 Examples of Grammar Mistakes 3 More comments on being a GA 4 Piro 5 Tense 6 GAC 7 Useful information to work in

GA nomination

I have nominated Kanon for Good Article status.--(十八|talk) 05:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that a lot of small changes need to be done:

• remove all instances of "also" as per User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a#Eliminating_redundancy
• remove unnecessary instances of additionally as per Eliminating_redundancy
• change "a number of other girls" to the actual number, and state if it is different between the different adaptations
• reword "the few" / "a few" - These items are too vague to add useful meaning as per Eliminating_redundancy
• consider removing or rewording "many" and "most" in the lead section
• There are 13 instances of "all" in the article. They add redundancy.
• Remove instances of "some" - These items are too vague to add useful meaning as per Eliminating_redundancy
• Get rid of "as noted above". The reader does not need to be reminded of what they just read, they aren't goldfish with short memories.
• There are 6 instances of "however". Listed on Wikipedia:Words to avoid
• There are 4 instances of "although". Listed on Wikipedia:Words to avoid
• change "range from amusing to downright mean". It isn't a review. You have to word this so the reader makes their own judgement about Makoto's pranks. Some people will think that she's cute and some will think she is a brat. (She is my favorite character)

The Setting and themes section may be better placed near the Plot section.

There are a lot of images. I'm not sure if that hurts GA nominations.

Kanon is a character driven story, the character section is good. In fact all the information is fine, I think your problem with the GA nom is with layout and language problems. --Squilibob 06:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've done most of what was listed with only minor points to make. One: I can't remove all instances of "all" since there are several times where "all-ages" version is stated to point out the difference between the original, hentai version, and the clean version. Also, I thought that the images might become an issue, though it's mainly due to the large amount in the characters section; if all those are taken out, there's only 5 left in the article. --(十八|talk) 07:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't count the all-ages part as a part of the 13 instances of all. You have fixed the others. You've done well to fix up those minor details. I'd be careful with sentences like "Once its popularity grew, Kanon soon made the transition to other media." for two reasons. When did it's popularity grow? You would have to cite it. Secondly, when you use the word "soon" it is like using all, many, some, etc. They add ambiguity. When I did a peer review of Azumanga Daioh recently, a fellow editor pointed out to me that using a lot of words to make a paragraph sound good isn't what good writing is about and that I should get straight to the point. I think that the point you are trying to get to in this sentence is that the company, Key, adapted Kanon into other forms of media. They may have done this because it was a good selling game, but don't state something that you can't reference. "Kanon is not celebrated for its gameplay, which is highly linear, but rather for its intense atmosphere, relatively intricate plot, and cute characters." should just be rewritten so that the reader makes up their own mind about it and therefore you don't have to cite it. That sentence sounds like you are reviewing it. --Squilibob 08:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll get right on that. Just one thing: Be in mind that this article has been around for 2 years and I've only started editing it the past 2 months. You keep saying "you" implying I've written the whole thing and many of these sentences I'm rewording I never wrote myself; just thought I'd point that out.--(十八|talk) 08:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I really shouldn't be doing that, but it's just easier to say "you". --Squilibob 08:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Support GA Nomination, looks like it meets all the criteria @ WP:GA?. →James Kidd (contr/talk/email) 13:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review

• Bad Prose
• Incomprehensible

"linear" in the intro. Explain!

"atmosphere" in the intro. It should be "the atmosphere", and I have no clue on how the focus could be the atmosphere.

• Lack of citation (well, I guess you can't really help it for the plots, characters, etc... For example, the intro, which has a lot of info on the dates of the releases, etc., should at least have 1... but the intro has none.)
• A little POV here and there, w/ weasel words, such as "Kyoto Animation, the high quality animators of another Key game-turned-anime, Air".
• Meets all other guidelines.
• Failed
• Comment: Good job, but I see grammar & manner of writing mistakes everywhere. Also, the article seems to compress too much info into a black hole or something. Some statements don't lead to definitive conclusions, there are too many elongated sentences that are hard to comprehend, and the sections talk about too many things. GL HF.

Examples of Grammar Mistakes

• The original version, available only on the PC, contained adult-only content of a sexual nature though an all-ages version was released for the PC on January 7, 2000. The "PC" is too repetitive, and the entire sentence must be fixed to suit "contained" as "contains".
• On September 14, 2000, a version intended for all ages was released and ported to the Dreamcast and then on February 28, 2002 for the PlayStation 2, with an additional re-release on that console on December 22, 2004. This and the previous sentences have too many "for all ages". I say that they be merged. And "and then on February 28, 2002..." phrase makes the sentence sound too elongated.
• ...created by an intricate plot and the appeal of cute characters. "the cute character"
• Kanon has made the transition to other several different media. "Kanon has made several transitions to other medias."
• This first includes two anime adaptations with the first as a 13-episode TV series first aired on January 30, 2002 plus one episode of an OVA, Kazahana, released on May 3, 2003, both by the animation studio Toei Animation. "January 30, 2002, plus"
• There has been a manga adaptation, several drama CDs, and novels based on the series and has even inspired a vast corpus of dōjin works, including unofficial music CDs, manga, and dōjin games such as Kanon RPG and the parody Kanoso. "There have been", "and novels based on the series. The anime has even inspired", This is better off as two separate sentences.
• The work's relative popularity in Japan has led to a considerable amount of interest from Japanophile communities in other countries. Unofficial fan translations of the game have been released in Chinese and Korean. I get where these two sentences are getting at, but they're not clearly expressed. So what if there has been an increase of interest for the anime in foreign countries? And then the article talks about unofficial fan translations in Chinese and Korean... It should be something like "The popularity of the anime outside of Japan can be signified by the fans' efforts, such as those in South Korea and China, to release translated versions to the public."
• Kanon revolves around a group of girls in the middle of winter who share the common ground of being connected back to the main protagonist, Yūichi Aizawa, who had visited the city where the story takes place seven years ago. This sentence is better off being separate.
• Kanon revolves around a group of girls in the middle of winter who share the common ground of being connected back to the main protagonist, Yūichi Aizawa, who had visited the city where the story takes place seven years ago. Yūichi doesn't have a very strong connection with this city and the people that reside within, or so he thought. When he finally returns, "Yuichi Aizawa, a boy who had". I don't get to find out the protagonist's gender until the 4th line!
• The day after he returns, Nayuki is out with Yūichi showing him around town and remembers Active rather than passive. Don't use "be" verbs!
• Yūichi isn't aware at first "is not". "can't--> cannot" "shouldn't--> should not"
• There are several important locations featured in the Kanon story that are based on the city of Moriguchi, Japan. "that are based on those of the Moriguchi city in Japan" the "locations" must be compared to the locations of the Moriguchi city, not Moriguchi city itself.
• This is consistent with Key using real world locations as inspiration for their game settings which occurred with their game Air. "This is consistent with the efforts of Key to use real world locations as..."
• One of the sub-themes in the story is amnesia. What in the world is amnesia? Define. (I know)
• as three of the main characters, Yūichi, Ayu and Makoto, seem to have a form of it in varying degrees. "; for example, the three of the main characters - Yūichi, Ayu and Makoto, appear to have..." NEVER USE naked "IT"
• Ayu is a short, strange, mysterious Add "and"

(Wikimachine 01:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC))

I have done most of the things outlined above, but I am still confused on a couple of your comments, cheifly:

Also, the article seems to compress too much info into a black hole or something.

and the sections talk about too many things.

First, please define what you mean by "black hole". Second, "too many things"? Aren't these sections supposed to be comprihensive and give all possible information on the subject?--(十八|talk) 16:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I think he means that the style of the article is such that we're trying to be as terse and detailed as possible at the same time, that readability suffers. Also, being comprehensive on a subject isn't the same thing as giving all possible information about it. Magus Melchior 18:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

More comments on being a GA

First of all, let me say that the 2006 Kanon anime is my favoritest show ever, so I really want this article to but good. However, it's just not ready.

• The biggest problem you're facing is keeping yourself from turning an article about the game from becoming an article about the anime. Specifically, the article has too much focus on the 2006 anime.
  • Every screenshot is from the 2006 anime.
  • "The seiyū, or Japanese voice actors, given are from the anime adaptations, unless otherwise specified." They were voiced in the game first guys. Plus, "the" anime adaptation doesn't work here.
  • Basically, everything in the article reads like it's just talking about the new anime series.
• The references suck. The ONLY ref worth keeping is "The setting is based on Moriguchi, Japan".
  • References to other Wikipedia articles violates WP:CITE.
  • "In fact, the Kanon girls are often referred to by fans as the original "sad girls in snow"." Stupid claim, stupid meme, and just wrong (there's a 1840 woodcut in the article about it for crying out loud).
  • Too many superficial references using the 2006 anime as a basis. The game should be quoted if anything, as it is the most canon (no pun intended). Also, if you're going to use a game/anime for a source, you need to provide a quote. However, if you're going to quote, you really should provide the original Japanese quote instead of an English fansub quote (which I know is what most of you would probably have to do). For quotes as references done right, see Final Fantasy X.
  • Too many references using amazon.jp, animenewsnetwork, and Pirikara.net on common knowledge type stuff. Common knowledge being things that aren't under dispute and can be varified easily. As long as you provide the name, it's not hard to do a search and discover that the product does indeed exist. Also, things like the number of episodes are too easy to verify to need to include. In short, you're creating reference clutter and are trying to make the article look more verifable than it actually is.
• Completely missing the more technical sections such as gameplay, critical responce, release and sales, development, etc. Now, some of those sections may not be possible to find stuff for, and that's ok (reputable visual novel reviews are damn near non-existant). But the article cannot be just about the plot and characters.
• Character section is too big. Very short summaries of the main characters should stay, but the rest should be split off to a List of characters in Kanon article.
• The section on dojinshi is iffy at best. Dojinshi are by definition unofficial, (almost always) non-notable, and (technically) copyright violations. Every anime series even mildly successful has dojinshi made for it; the fact that Kanon does as well comes as no surprise and doesn't need mention.
• "Serialized in" is empty for the manga infobox (my bet is on Comptiq).
• On a final note, we should probably wait for the new series to finish up before trying for GA.

Now I understand how hard it is to write an article like this, as I had to completely overhaul Shuffle! to redirect the focus from the anime to the visual novel to get it to GA status. But you just can't let the most accessable medium to English speakers (fansubs) dominate what the article really is about. I plan on helping with this though, as I think I'll be ordering Kanon for Dreamcast and the original Kanon anime series on DVD soon.--SeizureDog 13:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

First, I have removed all most of the references from the article on the "common knowledge" or "overuse" basis. I will get on creating a seperate article for the characters now. Also, I have searched and searched but never found anywhere to tell me in what magazine the manga was serialzied in. I see you say Comptiq; is this because the Air manga was serialized in that magazine or something else? I have a picture of a cover of Comptiq with Ayu and Nayuki, but it's dated at the same time the original anime came out in 2002, which was after the manga ended serialization, so I don't know. I do know that the volumes were published under the Dengeki Comics publishing label, which is a copyright of MediaWorks, so I doubt the Kanon manga was serialized in Comptiq. It's more believeable that it was serialized in either Dengeki G's Magazine or Dengeki Comic Gao!, but then I have found nothing to confirm which one. The reason I included a doujin section was because the lead had remarked about the doujin for sometime without any information provided, and I thought I'd expand on it a bit, but if you say that doujinshi is non-notable, then I'll remove all references of it from the article. Lastly, I apologize for the main focus being the 2006 anime, but that's all I have to work with. If I could understand Japanese, I would have bought the Dreamcast game as well; I am thankful for any continued support you can help this article on.

Oh, just one more thing about the voice acting. I found on the Japanese wiki of this article that the original game didn't include voice acting and thus the seiyū listed on that wiki page are from the anime adaptations too. However, as far as I can tell, both the Dreamcast and PS2 versions offered voice acting as Shiori was voiced differently in those versions than in the anime.--(十八|talk) 00:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice work on cleaning up on my comments so quickly.

I only guess Comptiq because they seem to have serialized every visual novel based manga that I know of, so they just seemed the likely choice. Interesting to note though: I was browsing Comtiq's release section and found Kanon & Air manga anthologies [1][2] and Kanon & Air SS (Short Story) fan anthology collections [3][4]. I'm not sure if they should be mentioned or not though.

Also interesting to note, Key has an entire webpage that details their policy on dojinshi here. Basically, they support and allow dojinshi and such based off of their series, but do not allow for copying of the original material (for example, writing a dojinshi manga with an alternate storyline is fine, but retelling the same story as in the visual novels is not).

True enough, the original version did not have voices, but the DC port was still 2 years before the first anime so it's still the game is still the first to have them. So all seiyu in all formats should probably be listed. Perhaps only in the character article though, to avoid clutter.--SeizureDog 03:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree about only listing the seiyū in the characters article; this is why I didn't include them in this artcle. As for the manga serialization, I don't think it can be ignored that the tankōbon were published by MediaWorks and not Kadokawa Shoten directly, like Comptiq is. I would appreciate after you get the DC game to add in the seiyū listed. Can I assume the seiyū for the DC and PS2 (maybe even PSP) versions are the same; for one, Shiori is voiced by the same woman in the DC and PS2 versions as noted on the List of Kanon characters article.--(十八|talk) 11:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why they wouldn't be. --SeizureDog 04:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I would like to ask one other thing regarding the renomination: If the focus on this article will thusforth be the game instead of the anime, why wait until after the anime stops airing? I mean, if we can get this article up to GA status by the end of February, then there wouldn't be any need to wait until the anime ends in March, right?--(十八|talk) 03:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose there is no reason. I just like for things to be settled out before nominating for things. Though it would be best to let the anime finish if we want to mention how the visual novel differs from its adaptations. --SeizureDog 04:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I still think that a good portion of the article is poorly written. I tried to clean up some of the plot but I think that it needs to be more concise. There is a paragraph about when the audience sees Ayu's first encounter with Yuichi which may not need to be there. I also think a few sentences in the character section need to be rewritten. What should we do with sentences like "He is seemingly there for little more than character development", "He seems to be full of himself"? --Squilibob 04:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ayu is intricate to the plot in that her appearance is the catalyst to Yūichi starting to remember things about his past in the city, so I think they're first meeting is very important plotwise. I tried to rewrite those two things about Jun and Kuze to not see some weasley. I'll get started on the gameplay now.--(十八|talk) 06:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I have finally included information about the manga on where it was serialized. I managed to find this image where if you look at the bottom right above the ISBN it says: "Comic Dengeki Daioh December 2000 - July 2002".--(十八|talk) 21:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Piro

Is it explicitly stated anywhere what Piro's gender is? I also changed loved by the whole family to loved by everyone because Makoto and Ayu aren't blood related and that isn't clear to the reader. --Squilibob 06:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen specifics on if Piro is male or female, so it's up in the air right now. I have seen sub groups say both so I really don't know.--(十八|talk) 06:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a reference to the Megatokyo character somwhere? His name is Piro and he is a Kanon fan, after all.--SidiLemine 12:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe on the List of Kanon characters article? --Squilibob 13:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this was brought up once before. Piro the cat and Piro from Megatokyo have no real connection besides having Piro from Megatokyo named after the cat because one of the creators is a Kanon fan. If you want, say it on the Megatokyo article about the origins of Piro's name, but I don't think it has any bearing to Kanon.--(十八|talk) 21:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I thought it might be good to help establish the success of Kanon in the US: Megatokyo is pretty famous by now, and having the author's alter ego named after a character of the game is pretty notable, moreso if the fanhsip (?) is accepted and stated in interviews. Given that Kanon has a big importance in popular culture, I thought it should be reflected in the article, by more than visual-novels.net and some characters appearing in a random fighting game where every single anime has some characters present. And it is already specified in the MT article.--SidiLemine 11:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Tense

I have had another read of the article and have noticed problems with tense.

Do we want to use past or present tense in paragraphs like "Yuichi did not believe that he had a very strong connection with this city and the people that reside within it. When he finally returns to the city, it is decided that he is to live with his cousin Nayuki Minase and her mother Akiko Minase. After his long absence Yuichi had forgotten all but minor details of what happened seven years before and is in need of being reminded of what he had left behind."

It begins in past tense, uses present tense for a line and then goes back to using past tense again. --Squilibob 07:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Past tense would perhaps be the best choice. Thanks for the help with the tense.--(十八|talk) 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I should have put this on the peer review, sorry. --Squilibob 09:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know...I've been taught that we should use the present tense when describing fiction. _dk 16:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

So then present tense is the right way to go? I really have no preference either way, as long as we can keep it consistent.--(十八|talk) 19:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, it seems alright as it is. The past tense parts are talking about events that happened before the story takes place. But yeah, tense is such a damn tricky thing with fiction.--SeizureDog 19:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've rewritten the plot section in such a way that when referring to before the story's begininng (i.e. 7 or more years ago when Yuichi was a young boy) I have used the past tense to denote this. When referring to the present (i.e. as the story is taking place) I have used present tense to denote this. Is this alright?--(十八|talk) 07:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks great!--SidiLemine 11:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

GAC

This article has been nominated for Good Article again today. --SidiLemine 17:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Useful information to work in

http://psx.ign.com/articles/085/085779p1.html

Dreamcast version of Kanon sells 42,379 copies in first week; 4th top selling console game in Japan.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-185388.html

Famitsu review of PS2 Kanon = 29 (7/8/7/7); better source might be nice for it though (actual magazine is best obviously).

http://www.allrpg.com/cgi-bin/news/archives.cgi?category=1&view=1-02

A special printer called the Tapis MPR-505 for the PS2 can be used to print game screens from a few games; one of the three supported games at launch was Kanon.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/098/098414p1.html

Nothing really new to include, but a funny little IGN news posting on the game. But it got me wondering as to what NEC Interchannel actually did, as I'm seeing quite a few places credit it as a developer. Did they do anything to tweak the ports?

I still don't see mention of the fact that the PC game doesn't have voice acting while the other versions do. Though I'm now confused as if the Dreamcast version has full voice acting, as the Air article says that its DC version was only partially VAed.

Anyways, that's just some stuff I was able to round up from a couple of quick Yahoo searches.--SeizureDog 11:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I incorperated the first three links since they were more relavent than the last one, which may become usefull if we can indeed find some tweak that NEC did to the Kanon PS2 release. And even though a source for the "no VAing in PC version" hasn't been found, we know that is the case, so I'll keep searching for that as well. Guess I should start using something other than Google. Thanks for the help.---- (十八) 21:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Strike that; just found the reference that says the DC version contained full voice acting, though the page had to be cached since I believe the thread was deleted some time ago: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Sba_eTdpdWoJ:forums.visualnews.net/showthread.php%3Ft%3D6600&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=12&client=firefox-a It's in the first line.---- (十八) 21:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, after doing some searching on some Japanese VA pages, I found that most if not all of the VAs for the anime versions also did the voices for the DC and PS2 games. I've already confirmed Yui Horie (Ayu), Mariko Kouda (Nayuki), Mayumi Iizuka (Makoto), Yukari Tamura (Mai), Ayako Kawasumi (Kaori) and Maaya Sakamoto (Mishio). Shiori's voice has already been noted by Hiroko Konishi on her page and at List of Kanon characters, so I'm going ahead and including the VAs I'm positive about in this article---- (十八) 21:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Got the voices from the DC game (and almost most likely for the PS2 version as well) at http://orangeday.net/kanon/information/kanongamefaq.txt ---- (十八) 22:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the PSP version? Any information as to if they're having to cut anything out to make it portable? Of course, it's not out yet, but maybe there's a press release or something on that. I'll also remind everyone that PSP games are region free if anyone has a PSP and wants to pick it up. Of course, like most visual novels, it will be overpriced... Anyways, I'm currently bidding on a Dreamcast version of the game so I'll let you know how that works out.--SeizureDog 01:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, haven't seen much on the PSP version yet besides a sale date; I think some info will pop up once the game is released an properly reviewed in a gaming magazine (I hope). Also, thanks for the info on how PSP games are region free because I have a PSP I gave my brother, but I'm sure if I asked him for it back for a time he'd do it; it's going to retail at 5,040 yen ($42.48 tax included), so I may end up getting it this summer when I have some time. Amazon.co.jp is selling it for 4,284 yen ($35.89) after tax though they won't ship it out of Japan. :/ ---- (十八) 02:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Play-Asia has it for $48.90. They're reliable and ship (cheaply) anywhere. That's one of the things you have to look out for, you might find it cheaper somewhere else but it doesn't matter if the shipping ends up making it cost more (*cough* eBay*). Anyways, they're a good site and I'd recommend them. --SeizureDog 02:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)