Talk:Kalarippayattu
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[edit] Featured article drive
Ive been interested in this topic for a long time, and possess Zarrili's book on the subject. I will attempt to get this article to peer reviewed status over time, as this martial art deserves the exposure that being featured can give it. Featured aritcles tend to be short but comprehensive, so I will create many sub-articles, including ones for the specific styles - i.e. Northern, Southern and Central. I would appretiate any help that can be provided, however I am adopting a non-biased position in relation to the Bodhidharma issue, and constant edits either in favour or against the theory will only serve to make the article unsucessfull. Vastu 18:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
from looking at it, the article has had a few locks since it was created... and a lot of edits and re-edits.
[edit] "Origins"
Instead of a single "Origins" section for all styles of Kalarippayattu, the origins of the northern and southern styles should be addressed separately. Zarrilli provides little in the way of information on the origins of the Central style, but on the origins of the Northern style he says this…
what eventually crystallized as kalarippayattu combined indigenous Dravidian techniques with the martial practices and ethos brought by brahman migrations from Saurastra and Konkan down the west Indian coast into Karnataka and eventually Kerala
– Phillip B. Zarrilli, When the Body Becomes All Eyes
…and on the history of the Southern style Zarrilli says this…
These southern arts are decidedly Tamil, and at least for several hundred years have been practised primarily by Nadars who claim an ancient heritage as warriors.
– Phillip B. Zarrilli, When the Body Becomes All Eyes
The Tamil arts are traditionally practiced primarily by Nadars, Kallars, and Thevars.
– P. Zarrilli, To heal and/or harm
some sets of techniques which may at one time have been part of southern kalarippayattu continued to be practised by non-Nayar castes including Nadars, as well as some Sambavar.
– Phillip B. Zarrilli, When the Body Becomes All Eyes
[edit] "Revival"
During the colonial occupation of India by the British Empire, Kalaripayattu was outlawed…By the time of Indian independence, the martial art had declined in practice.
– Vastu, 17:10, 5 September 2006
Excepting the eradication of the dronambolli style of kalarippayattu, there is nothing in Zarrilli about a ban on kalarippayattu in general. Also, the revival of kalarippayattu began in the 1920s, before Indian independence.
Here is Zarrilli on the decline of kalarippayattu under western colonialism and the beginning of its revival in the 1920s.
The arrival of Vasco da Gama and the Portuguese at the end of the fifteenth century introduced colonial influence in Kerala as well as the increased use of firearms in warfare.
…
When Rama Varna Maharaja formed an alliance with the dispossessed rulers of Malabar and Cochin, and sought the help of the British in 1792, this alliance brought further erosion of Nayar influence, especially in southern Kerala.
More European modes of organizing police, armies and governmental institutions, and the increasing use of firearms, gradually eroded the need for traditional martial training associated with caste-specific duties. Like some other traditional occupations, the majority of families practising kalarippayattu eventually had to fend for themselves in the emerging marketplace economy. Some families abandoned their traditional practice of kalarippayattu. For others kalarippayattu necessarily became an avocation rather than a vocation. In southern Kerala where there was active suppression of the Nayars, by the mid 1950s Chirakkal T. Sreedharan Nayar notes, the unique southern dronambolli style was virtually non-existent. In northern Malabar in particular, and to a lesser degree in central Kerala, kalarippayattu continued to be practised, and some masters continued to make a subsistence living by maintaining their medical practice and teaching local children. For the majority of masters who continued to practise kalarippayattu, it became increasingly divorced from practical use as a fighting art; therefore, masters often stopped teaching meditation and secret practices used to gain access to 'higher' and more dangerous powers in combat or duel.
It was in Tellicherry that the resurgence of public interest in kalarippayattu began during the 1920s as part of the wave of rediscovery of the traditional arts throughout south India which characterized the growing reaction against British colonial rule.– Phillip B. Zarrilli, When the Body Becomes All Eyes''
[edit] "Components," "Stages" and "Kalarippayattu and other performing arts"
The material in these sections applies only to Northern Kalarippayattu so they should probably be moved to that article.
Analogous material on Southern Kalarippayattu can be found on pp. 108–111 of Zarrilli and, for Central Kalarippayattu, pp. 106–108 and pp. 148–149.
[edit] Bodhidharma
The Dharma Master was a South Indian of the Western Region. He was the third son of a great Indian King…His ambition lay in the Mahayana path, and so he put aside his white layman's robe for the black robe of a monk…Lamenting the decline of the true teaching in the outlands, he subsequently crossed distant mountains and seas, traveling about propagating the teaching in Han and Wei.
– Jeffrey L. Broughton, The Bodhidharma Anthology: The Earliest Records of Zen, p. 8
Bodhidharma in one account by a likely disciple is said to have been a South Indian from the west coast of India, a description that would place his origins exactly in Kerala.
– Vastu, 17:10, 5 September 2006
"Western Region" is a classical Chinese literary term for a territory that encompasses everything from present-day Kazakhstan to the southern tip of the Indian subcontinent. In other words, the description does not "place [Bodhidharma's] origins exactly in Kerala;" instead of interpreting Tanlin to mean "Bodhidharma is from the western part of south India," the correct interpretation of Tanlin is "Bodhidharma is from South India, which is part of the Western Region."
In modern times some people have theorised that Kalaripayattu was practiced by the 6th century Buddhist Monk Bodhidharma, who according to some Chinese accounts, was responsible for teaching monks of the Shaolin temple a physical or martial art, which later developed into, or formed the basis of, Shaolin Kung Fu, and from there decended into its subsequent martial arts systems across asia.
– Vastu, 17:10, 5 September 2006
In the story, which dates to a thousand years after Bodhidharma's supposed lifetime, Bodhidharma does not teach the monks of Shaolin any art directly; instead he performs seated meditation for nine years and then disappears, leaving behind a book.
Accounts of the physical discipline he practiced may however have been a reference to Indian yoga, which shares much theory with both Kalaripayattu and Shaolin kung fu, or another Indian martial art.
– Vastu, 17:10, 5 September 2006
There are no accounts of Bodhidharma practicing a physical discipline. Again, in the story Bodhidharma meditates for nine years and then disappears, leaving behind a book.
As for yoga sharing much theory with Shaolin kung fu, I'll quote Gene Ching, Associate Publisher of Kung Fu Magazine on this one.
You'll dig a quick grave if you argue that kung fu emerged from asana.
– Gene Ching, Associate Publisher, Kung Fu Magazine
It is also unclear if Bodhidharma was assotiated with the Shaolin temple until after his death.
– Vastu, 17:10, 5 September 2006
Actually, it's very clear that Bodhidharma was not associated with the Shaolin temple until centuries after his death.
JFD 05:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, those quotes were a great help, as I havent read the book in its entirity yet. I am trying to work out how the best adress the seperate origins of the different styles, which are as different as say White Crane from Wing Chun - I think I will mention them in the same paragraphs i.e. a different description for northern and southern, and an observation that central style is like a combination of both. Do you know of any featured articles on a martial art? I have been looking for one as a basis for comparison, but cannot find any - so im trying to come up with a layout that martial artists would appretiate - i.e. discussion of equipment, theory, history, forms, etc. BTW, I am not clear on one of the quotes - when the person suggested that suggesting Yoga might be related to Shaolin was 'a way to dig a quick grave' - did he mean it was innaccurate, or just that people dont like that theory? Vastu 12:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to work out how the best adress the seperate origins of the different styles, which are as different as say White Crane from Wing Chun - I think I will mention them in the same paragraphs i.e. a different description for northern and southern, and an observation that central style is like a combination of both.
The problem is that Zarrilli only gives us the origins of Northern Kalarippayattu. The most he tells us about Southern Kalarippayattu is that it's been practiced "at least for several hundred years" and he tells us nothing at all about the origins of Central Kalarippayattu.
I tried to address the separate origins of the different styles by creating a separate article for Southern Kalarippayattu, which Zarrilli calls Varma ati.
Bharatveer took rather strong exception to that, so I tried to differentiate between the separate styles by restructuring the organization of the article.
That's why in this version[1] of the article, "Training" is a subsection of "Northern".
Because the material within that section really only applies to Northern Kalarippayattu.
Do you know of any featured articles on a martial art? I have been looking for one as a basis for comparison, but cannot find any
I took a look at the complete list of Wikipedia:Featured articles but didn't see anything but maybe I missed something.
im trying to come up with a layout that martial artists would appretiate - i.e. discussion of equipment, theory, history, forms, etc.
The layout ought to be determined by two thiings:
- The relationships between different styles of kalarippayattu
- The training curriculum
As I said, my initial impulse was to have two separate articles for Northern Kalarippayattu and Varma ati. However, there would have been no place for Central Kalarippayattu within that framework.
Your idea—using the main Kalarippayattu article as a nexus for sub-articles on the different styles—works, but you run the risk of duplicating some of the same material in four separate articles, which becomes a real pain in the @$$ should you find that you have to edit that material, because you have to edit it in four separate places.
If you want, you can take a look at what I did with Hakka Kuen, East River Fist, Southern Praying Mantis, Dragon Kung Fu and Bak Mei, which comprise a family of interrelated martial arts.
I am not clear on one of the quotes - when the person suggested that suggesting Yoga might be related to Shaolin was 'a way to dig a quick grave' - did he mean it was innaccurate, or just that people dont like that theory?
What he meant was the difficulty of trying to connect Chinese physical culture with Indian physical culture. Here's another quote from the same e-mail (the quote is from a Chinese martial arts mailing list).
if you try to map the nadi on the jingluo, you'll drive yourself nuts. Trust me, I tried, and was driven nuts.
– Gene Ching, Associate Publisher, Kung Fu Magazine
With regard to Bodhidharma, he has always been associated with the territory of the Northern Wei dynasty, specifically Luoyang and the surrounding area, which is not far from the Shaolin temple.
But the first real association of Bodhidharma with the Shaolin temple is not made until the 10th century compilation of the Jingde Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, which contain no references whatsoever to Bodhidharma practicing any kind of physical discipline, martial or otherwise.
JFD 18:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
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- Thanks for your input, I have found it really helpfull - and those are some nice articles you have written - if I can sucessfully make this a featured article, I might work on other martial arts in future, such as Lathi, although martial arts arnt my main area of interest (at least not anymore, having once been very interested in all styles of asian martial art). Like you, I actually think Bodhidharma likely had nothing to do with Shaolin - but im presenting the theory as it hasnt comprehensibly been proven either way, and because many martial artists seem to believe it - i.e. wikipedia's policy of neutrality - might as well let people decide for themselves. On the issue of commonality between different systems, I was once told that Chi/Qi was the same thing as prana (or perhaps kundalini or pranayama) - is this accurate, or is it mearly a laymen's connection? I think ill stick with the current layout - but in future, leave it for someone else to decide whether the Marma ati and Southern style articles should be combined. The impression I get from Zarrilli's lack of an explination of southern and central styles, is that they were variations of the northern style - i.e. marma ati took the empty handed form only - so ill have to just mention that it has been practiced for at least a few centuries - and try to expand other area of the article like forms, etc, to accomodate whatever I can find on Southern and Central style variations. Vastu 19:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
When presenting the Bodhidharma theory, one has to be mindful of which version one presents. The very first account associating Bodhidharma with the martial arts is the Yi Jin Jing, which dates to the 17th century at the earliest, which may be "ancient" to you and me, but is young compared to the traditional sources on Bodhidharma: Yang Xuanzhi (547), Tanlin (6th century), Daoxuan (645), Daoyuan (10th century). The Yi Jin Jing is the account where Bodhidharma disappears leaving behind a book. But at least the Yi Jin Jing is a specific source that an editor can attribute this account of Bodhidharma to.
Because the topic is controversial, citing a specific source becomes so much more important. Heck, there's another version where Bodhidharma's legs have atrophied over his 9 years of meditation, which probably precludes the teaching and practice of any physical discipline, martial or otherwise.
I was once told that Chi/Qi was the same thing as prana (or perhaps kundalini or pranayama) - is this accurate
You don't ask the easy questions, do you, Vastu?
Based solely on my subjective personal experience of physical sensations—keeping in mind just how unscientific this is—during the practice of both yoga (Iyengar and Ashtanga) and a variety of Chinese martial arts, I would personally answer yes.
But if you try to establish commonality at a deeper, more detailed level (e.g. Nadi (yoga) vs Meridian (Chinese medicine)) it just doesn't hold together.
Commonality between Chinese and Indian physical cultures is like an Impressionist painting.
What seems coherent from a distance breaks down once you look at it up close.
The impression I get from Zarrilli's lack of an explination of southern and central styles, is that they were variations of the northern style - i.e. marma ati took the empty handed form only
The impression I got is that Northern Kalarippayattu combines the martial practices of migrants from the north with Dravidian methods native to south India, i.e. Southern Kalarippayattu.
Also read the following passage from Joseph Alter's The Wrester's Body: Identity and Ideology in North India about traditional Indian attitudes towards armed vs unarmed martial arts.
It is worth noting that while wrestling is regarded as a martial art, it is rarely mentioned in accounts of epic or medieval military history. When it is mentioned it is regarded as much less important than swordsmanship, archery, equestrian skill, and the other "high" arts of military combat. One reason for this may be that wrestling, no matter how well developed and refined as a fighting skill, remained a basic form of hand-to-hand combat and did not enjoy the glory and prestige of the more technologically sophisticated arts of war.
What I'm saying is that Northern Kalarippayattu places greater emphasis on weapons than Southern and Central Kalarippayattu because its Nair practitioners, as a professional martial caste, had greater access to weapons than practitioners of Southern and Central Kalarippayattu historically did. Southern and Central Kalarippayattu therefore ought to have smaller, less varied arsenals of weapons, which they do, and the logical response for these styles would be to adapt by placing greater emphasis on empty-hand tactics, which they do.
JFD 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
why did you remove the reference to dance? kalari is very closely associated with dance... my school practices kalari sometimes as a pre-dance exercise. Also, none of the books i have read in my studies on kalari talk of bodhidharma or this shaolin kung fu... that association with bodhidharma section seems to be the weak link... Elmo1 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
oh, sorry didn't read your edits. Actually, a lot of people consider kalari to be similar to caoperia. If you've actually seen it in action, it does have elements of martial dance like caoeperia. A lot of the sword fighting and fighting in general is very coordinated. That's why it was accepted as an exercise form by some dance schools. Elmo1 21:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- Ill have to change it back though, for the sake of correctness - afterall, Kalari itself is not a dance art - rest assured however, there will be mention of it later in the article :-) Vastu 21:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
that's what i am trying to say, it has components of martial dance like caoperia. that's why outside of india, westerners who study it are mostly in the dance departments.Elmo1 if you look at people who have seen it in action and who practice, there is a lot of jumping... a lot of jumping! and posturing in many of its moves... the picture that you see on the page is not a blown up picture or an exagerrated picture. most people who practice kalaripayattu do perform those jumps. and there is a huge - huge - element of religion in it. it's not just healing, it's a way of life for kalari practitioners.Elmo1 21:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- Elmo, which stage of kalaripayattu is designed specifically to teach dance? Im not sure that this should be included in a sentence designed to tell people what the martial art teaches as part of its normal regimen. Vastu 21:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
it's regimen includes martial dance like caoperia. many caoperia practitioners perform martial arts along with martial dance. the other indian dances have incoporated some kalari in it but the art itself has elements of martial dance. along with a heavy dose of religion. it's not just healing techniques. many of the movements are highly choreographed. if you look at that picture, he is not really just jumping. but jumping and fighting in a choreographed manner with his opponent.Elmo1 21:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- I must again ask, which of the main stages teach this specifically? Or is it mearly a side-effect? Kalari is designed to teach strikes, kicks, grappling, weapon use, and ayurvedic healing - it is not designed to teach dance, that is mearly a by-product, unlike in Capoeria where it is an actual aim of the martil art. Furthermore, the dance aspect is mentioned further down in the article, so why should it be included amongst the martial applications? Vastu 21:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
it depends perhaps on the meaning of the term martial dance. If you consider martial dance a form of choreography as applied to the martial arts, then kalari represents a martial dance because a lot of its movements are quite choreographed. If you actually see it in action, it does have many elements of martial dance. Many of the fighting styles and postures are similar to martial dance. they are quite choreographed. There is a reason why many of the schools that teach it now are tied to the performing arts, not an extension from it. But that's fine. If it's ok with you, I'll correct some grammatical errors. Elmo1 00:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
not to step on your toes, but can we add religious training to the introduction? there is a large element of religionin kalari and to state that it is just "healing techniques" does it a disservice. Elmo1 00:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- In my experience, introductions are best kept as brief as possible.
- JFD 13:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the image of that monk on the kalari page. He isn't mentioned in any books that i have read on kalaripayattu and Phil (Zirelli) makes no mention of him. None of the guest kalari teachers have mentioned him. As far as I can tell he and kalari is an internet phenomenon. Putting him on there and mentioning him is similar to putting on the George Bush wikipedia article that "some people believe that George bush is the anti-christ" and then having a picture of the devil. Although it's true that some people believe that George Bush is the anti-christ (4-5 webpages exist about him being the anti-christ) it's not a theory that many people who are normal would entertain. But we should leave the article mentioning bodhidharma there as looking at the history of this article, it would appear that there was a huge gigantic debate on it in the past. Oh, how do we archive the prior discussions? I've seen it on other articles but it doesn't seem to exist here. It seems a waste to remove all the prior discussions and then have to repeat ourselves in the future. Elmo1 22:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
- Actually elmo, while the image is irrelevent, its not quite as irrelevent as your example, seeing as numerous martial artists have written the theory in their books.
[edit] sangam literature
the source quoted is a travel agent website run by a travel agent who is quoting himself as a source of the history of kalari and the sangam literature. Kennethtennyson 17:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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