Talk:Justice

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Contents 1 a question 2 fairness, impartiality, justice and philosophy 3 Short essay 4 Removed Links 5 history 6 Revenge 7 Proposed renovation of this article 8 Peer review request 9 Revising this page - collaboration 10 New version 11 Bibliography 12 Divine command theory 13 Legal positivism 14 Utilitrainism 15 User:Alexjohnc3's changes 16 For the sake of the viewpoint... 17 Plato's dialogues 18 Corruption of Justice and its logic. 19 The opening sentence 20 new approach 21 Just a Thought 22 People vs Persons 23 Rambling

[edit] a question

Erm, excuse me, but why does the statue of Justice carry a sword, blindfold and set of scales? I would like to know ASAP...

because people like you only see the symbol and think its justice to know why the symbol is the way it is. To see the shadows of reality and contest with others why the way things are instead of looking at the light and helping others realize... plato

[edit] fairness, impartiality, justice and philosophy

I'm new here, but aren't "fair" & "impartial" in the definition of justice (1st sentence) the same thing? I would recommend saying "the moral and impartial treatment..."

Actually, justice and fairness are two entirely different topics, while impartiality is derived from justice. Justice is a universal law that rules over all things, and applies to all instances of the same sort in the same manner; thus is the nature of impartiality. Fairness varies in definition (as does any doctrine that is not based on truth), but typically incorporates the easing or utter omission of the natural consequences which must follow any action (please don't confuse this with mercy, which derives from man's natural compassion toward others of his kind; in that it is a sort of violation of justice, but the only explanation is that humans are imperfect). I realize that this comment and those which I have added to the main article will likely earn me something of a reputation on this site, but I'm simply trying to fulfill the encyclopedia's goal of describing fact. --Undomiel 00:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but this is clearly a contraversial issue among philosophers (assuming that this article ought to reflect the views of philosophy in some way). According to Rawls, justice IS fairness, so I really doubt your authority to make this claim as if it is "describing fact". And the claim that the principles of justice are like the laws of physics is misleading, if not incorrect. Are you sure you're not writing this from some ideological bent? Obviously, this wikipedia entry isn't where we're supposed to share our own beliefs about what justice is, but to reference other literature on the subject.

Okay, first of all, this newbie that is arguing against putting "fair and impartial" in the introduction needs to learn to not be so snotty and to sign after their comments so we know who is talking. We aren't going to settle anything if one party involved takes such a condescending attitude. And furthmore, this is encyclopedia is a place of fact, so we should look at the definition of the words fair and impartial. I have found that impartial sometimes appears in the definition. I believe that we should remove both words because, however trivial a complaint this may be, and however much a true waste of time it is, technically the person who has posted complaints with putting both words in the introduction is correct. The complainer does have a point about quoting philosphy as if it was fact. This article should only discuss what hard evidence can prove. I think all future references to philosphy should be identified as philosphy in the article. Undomiel has every right to put their opinion on this talk page however, because that is what a talk page is for. Stop Me Now! 23:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, it certainly is difficult to move forward in the midst of condescension, isn't it? You know...like, belittling and name-calling because one does not agree with another's point of view...hmm kind of like the use of words like 'newbie' or 'complainer' or saying that addressing someone's viewpoint is a 'waste of time'...

I'm not saying I am not new -and I am- But dude, you are a newbie. And it was not used as a derogative term, a 'newbie' is mearly someone new at something. If he had said 'noob', it may have been meant to insult you. And you were complaining about its usage. Wrycu 2:00, July 16 2006

A few things. First, I've been here slightly over two years and I'm still a newbie. I've never once been offended by the term. Second, fairness does not always imply or even mean impartiality. Thus using the two words together is appropriate.

Also, the words "moral and impartial" could have religious implications. "Ethical and impartial" might be the better phrase. Wjbean 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm late to this argument, but for what it's worth: 'The article should only discuss what hard evidence can prove'. The article is about justice. I'm very unclear what Stop Ne Now! believes can be said about that topic without discussing philosophy, and I'm equally unclear what distinction he/she is intending to make between philosophy and 'what hard evidence can prove'. Can someone enlighten me? Cheers, --Sam Clark 11:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No problem. As far as i know, Philosophy is questioning things, and beliefs. Hard evidence PROVES things to be right, and can be backed up in a way anyone can see. Philosophy doesnt really prove anything, and when it does, it cannot be backed up except with speaking and discussion. Hopefully that helped! Wrycu 14:29, August 7 2006

I didn't mean the question very seriously, to be honest, and your answer's interesting, but I don't buy it. Philosophy is (amongst other things) a professional academic discipline. It has a long history of giving reasons for and against beliefs about, for instance, how one should live. And it has a couple of thousand years of proofs of things including, for instance, the incoherence of basing justice on God's command, the self-defeatingness of rational self-interest, the conditions of validity for logical argument, and so on. All of these things are contestable, of course - not everyone accepts them - but that's true of pretty much anything interesting. Not everyone accepts Einstein, either. I could tediously go on about this all day (it's my job, after all), but the points I wanted to make above were really just these: 1. If you want to say anything interesting about justice, you need to draw on the history of philosophy; and 2. The idea of 'hard evidence' is a pretty slippery one, and the subject of a great deal of philosophical argument itself. Cheers, Sam Clark 09:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I see your point about 'hard evidence', but I still believe that there is such a thing. Since 'fact' is a man made item, it can be achieved. And a few thousand year of proofs does mean a lot- since we, humans, dont even live for a hundred years (for the most part). --Wrycu 9:19, October 12 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Short essay

This an Introduction to Justice, written by the "user" Ghitis. It should not be cited as a source of authorized information.

Justice The word JUSTICE brings to mind the idea of punishing the wrongdoer while comforting and compensating the aggrieved party. That was, at least, the image I held all these years, until I was encouraged to write a mini-essay on the subject. I started, Descartes-style, to think about the possible evolutionary origin, yet could not envisage any animal, even as advanced as the chimpanzee, evincing a group behavior even remotely resembling an act of punishment. Thus, I had to assume a human origin, and remembered how not so far in the past, the accused was judged by exposing him to absurd physical trials, whereby stamina was the determining 'proof.'

Looking up the dictionary, I found that the Latin word 'jus' is the root for 'just,' justice' and derivatives, such as 'judge' and 'judicial,' the basic meaning being 'RIGHT." In Hebrew, I had learned that there are two kinds of 'justice,' there being among religious Jews a preference for associating the 'heavenly' one, called "Tse'dek," while the earthly one is called "Mishpat," from a root used for 'judge' too. The biblical Judges were the highest civil authority too, until the people under Samuel, fearing the Philistine might, forced the election of Saul, the first King, a symbol of true courage, "in the manner of the other nations." A person fulfilling all of God's commandments to the letter is called a "Tsadik," by association with the heavenly justice, being then a personification of righteousness.

It became clear to me that justice embodies the concept of right behavior in a society that upholds the laws. This sounded trite, but then I remembered that in Israel, people, starting from childhood, have adopted the English word "fair," preferring it to the time-honored one meaning "all right." At that moment, I realized that justice is actually a concept of FAIRNESS. From this point on, I had to think about the time when an inchoate concept of UNFAIRNESS makes its mark in the infant's brain, because Tse'dek, Mishpat and Justice make their appearance at that very moment!

And what happens when a human fetus is born? It cries 'angrily,' as if stating: "This is unfair! I was cozy until this moment: what have you done to me?!" After that, the infant starts to become possessive, interested in his own well being, and rejecting a sibling's appearance. It is a question of survival, of being 'bad' for self-advancement. Proper education will guide the inborn --but not yet manifested-- need to be 'good' for the benefit of the group.

In adulthood, unfairness to a person, a group, a society and a nation, is dealt with using all the instruments of 'justice,' as defined by each one of those who feel unfairly treated. People vary in the weight attached to such feeling. The reaction varies from mild reproof to physical attack, and from diplomatic friction to full war. Upon 'discovering' what justice really is, I realized that its understanding is paramount for a person's self-knowledge.

Fundamentally different to such 'natural' sense of justice, so similar among different individuals, is the justice based on laws. Millenia have left their prints on laws, and we know about outstanding lawgivers, such as Hammurabi, Moses, Solon, Roman legislators, and Napoleon. Natural laws are probably related to the individual sense of justice, while the positive law is the written, evolutive one.

In Israel, where no trial by jury exists, judges are guided by the written ('positive') law: the personal sense of justice (the 'natural' law) plays no role. Therefore, "aggravation," so important as a component of the feeling of unfairness, by itself has scarce judicial meaning. The result is dissatisfaction (a feeling of unfairness) for a complainant receiving the measure of his material loss, with complete disregard for his anguish.

Aug 17 2004, 14:00 (GT)

Can I just add that not only is this original research, it's very bad original research? Anyone editing this page: please don't draw on this!--Sam Clark 12:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Links

I removed the following two links from the entry.

• on Justice [1]
• I am justice [2]

\ One of them is a blog[amend], and the other is the short essay above with no qualifications listed. Given that none of these seem to be particularly authoritative or helpful discussions of justice, I thought they were inappropriately in the article. --Kzollman 01:57, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] history

nothing at all about the history of Roman and Medieval jurisprudence? dab (ᛏ) 17:39, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

we really need something about Plato's Republic on this page. I certainly won't be the one to write it, but someone more knowledgeable than I on the subject certainly should.

[edit] Revenge

The article on revenge mentions in its introduction the (sometimes fine) distinctions between it and justice, yet this article never even mentions "revenge". This should be considered when revising the article, as this is an important ethical consideration, and certainly has plenty of reliable sources from which to draw material. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed renovation of this article

The article as it stands is not remotely NPOV: it presents an extremely controversial account of justice as if it were common knowledge. I plan to rewrite it.

UPDATE (1 Aug 2006): rather than keep making small edits to the plan which was previously here, I've started drafting a new version of the article at User:Sam_Clark/justice. If you're interested, please check there and leave any comments on my talk page. In particular, comments are solicited on what to do about the two articles distributive justice and retributive justice. Neither is currently much good; the latter is downright misleading. Should I expand into a more general renovation of the articles in the justice category?

Cheers,

--Sam Clark 11:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: much expanded draft version 7 now online: see User:Sam_Clark/justice. Comments welcome, as ever. Cheers, Sam Clark 13:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: first revised version now live - see below. Sam Clark 14:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request

Editors interested in this topic might like to take part in peer review on a new version of Global justice I've been working on. Cheers, --Sam Clark 11:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Has fair justice ever really been given? Might want to comment on that... --Wrycu 11:26, 28 July 2006 (Eastern Time Zone)

Might well be worth pointing out that justice is an ideal, and very rarely a reality, yeah. Thanks for your input. Cheers, --Sam Clark 10:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revising this page - collaboration

Dear all - as noted further up this page, I'm currently engaged in a major overhaul of this article: see User:Sam_Clark/justice. This doesn't mean I think it's my personal property or anything silly like that, but it does mean that I'd appreciate it if anyone who wants to make changes to it would collaborate rather than making unilateral edits. Comments on my draft new version very welcome. Cheers, --Sam Clark 13:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New version

New version now live. Comments and improvements actively desired. Cheers, Sam Clark 14:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Additionally: I should say that my new version is pretty skeletal at the moment - most of the sections would benefit from a bit of fleshing out with further analysis, criticisms, cross-references to important thinkers, etc. Sam Clark 09:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

I've just cut a couple of articles which had been added to the bibliography and further reading. I'm sure they're interesting, but the bibliography (as I originally put it together) was intended to consist of 1. general introductions; 2. wide-ranging collections; and 3. major contributions to the subject. The added articles were a bit specific and non-notable for that purpose, and open up the door to making the list vast and unwieldy, as everyone adds their two-penny-worth. Any views either on these specific articles, or on the above-suggested purpose for the bibliography? Cheers, Sam Clark 16:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Divine command theory

The section above needs to be edited because in my opinion it does not conform to a netural point of view. After a previous reversion of my edit, I decided to post my suggestions for correction here to avoid an editing war. Hopefully an agreement can be reached about my proposals for change in that section.

The argument I see being given here is that God's commands are arbitrary. I therefore propose the following changes which I hope answer that objection; please feel free to discuss:

"Advocates of divine command theory argue that justice, and indeed the whole of morality, is the authoritative command of God. Murder is wrong and must be punished, for instance, because, and only because, God commands that it be so. This faces the objection that it makes justice arbitrary: God might equally have commanded that murder is just, if he had chosen. The response may be that God's justice is not arbitrary, but his commands are rooted in His very nature." Ben 14:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Of course, let's agree on an edit rather than warring over it. Your 'his commands are rooted in his nature' is better than my way of putting the point, and I'm happy to adopt it. But your version doesn't capture the Euthyphro dilemma, which is what I'd intended in the rest of the section. The question is then, whether we should include Euthyphro or not. I don't think it violates NPOV to include it - after all, this is one of the oldest arguments in philosophy, not my POV - but it should certainly be better expressed and referenced than currently. Perhaps the argument against inclusion would be that several other sections set out their positions without any criticism; but that's perhaps an argument for including criticism elsewhere, rather than removing it here. What do you think? Cheers, Sam Clark 15:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

FURTHER - I meant to address this above, but forgot. The argument being put isn't just 'God's commands are arbitrary'. It is: if we say that justice is the command of an authority, then either a. the authority has rational justification for its command or b. it doesn't have such justification. If a., then it's the rational justification which is fundamental, not the command; if b., then the command is not rationally justified, and there is therefore no good reason to obey it. Either way, divine command theory is refuted. I mention this just to be clear what it is that we're disputing over the inclusion of, which is the main issue, rather than the coherence of this particular argument. Cheers, Sam Clark 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, sorry for the delay in this response. Yes, I agree that including the Euthyphro dilemma would not violate the NPOV, provided that it gives the criticism and response. As we have agreed on the above text so far, what I propose below would be an appendage to the above paragraph:

The theroy also faces an objection known as the Euthyphro dilemma which essentially states, "Is the morally good whatever is commanded by God, or does God command what is in fact morally good?" An advocator of the divine command theory could respond by arguing that the dilemma is false, that goodness is the very nature of God, which is expressed necessarily in His commands, that then become our moral duties.

I've tried to avoid going into too much detail here. I don't think that is the best way of putting it but see what you think. Ben 19:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ben - how about the following compromise:

Advocates of divine command theory argue that justice, and indeed the whole of morality, is the authoritative command of God. Murder is wrong and must be punished, for instance, because, and only because, God commands that it be so. This faces an objection known as the Euthyphro dilemma, which asks: is what is right whatever is commanded by God, or does God command what is in fact morally right? If the former, then justice appears arbitrary, and we seem to have no reason to conform to it; if the latter, then morality is independent of God and he becomes little more than a passer-on of moral knowledge. Either way, divine command theory is refuted. A defender of the theory could respond by arguing that the dilemma is false: goodness is the very nature of God and is necessarily expressed in his commands.

Cheers, Sam Clark 11:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sam. I've added in a few words because it makes the argument sound like there is no rebuttal even though one is stated in the next sentence. In my opinion the edit carries on the flow into the defence better and reduces the certainty with which the statement is made, again opening the way for the possible rebuttal:

Advocates of divine command theory argue that justice, and indeed the whole of morality, is the authoritative command of God. Murder is wrong and must be punished, for instance, because, and only because, God commands that it be so. This faces an objection known as the Euthyphro dilemma, which asks: is what is right whatever is commanded by God, or does God command what is in fact morally right? If the former, then justice appears arbitrary, and we seem to have no reason to conform to it; if the latter, then morality is independent of God and he becomes little more than a passer-on of moral knowledge. Either way, it appears that divine command theory is refuted. A defender of the theory could respond by arguing that the dilemma is false: goodness is the very nature of God and is necessarily expressed in his commands.

Apart from that I would be happy to accept that version. Ben 15:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I've added the new version to the page, with a couple of small edits for flow. I agree that 'it appears that divine command theory is refuted' is more appropriately neutral. Good job, I think - article improved, civility maintained. Nice working with you. Cheers, Sam Clark 15:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)#

Good, I'm glad we could work together rather than against each other to improve the article. A pleasure working with you. Ben 08:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal positivism

The stanford online encylopedia of philosophy disagree's with the claim made on the page that legal positivism argues that laws create justice and illegality create injustice, it states ( along with innumerable other sources I've googled) that positivism argues that what is legal and what is just are seperate. I'll change the page to reflect this.

Timothy J Scriven 03:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thinking about it, my (careless) reference to legal positivism is probably unnecessary anyway. The point of the section is just to raise Hobbes's claim that justice == the command of the sovereign. I've edited to reflect this. Cheers, Sam Clark 11:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Utilitrainism

I think the whole section on utilitrainism need's citations. Consider:

"Either way, what is important is those consequences, and justice is important, if at all, only as derived from that fundamental standard."

As far I can see a utilitrain would simply claim that the standard IS justice. But I don't know enough to say for sure so I'll just point out that this section, along with many others, desperately need's citiations.

Timothy J Scriven 03:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That section as it stands is reporting Mill's view in chapter 5 of Utilitarianism, and is cited as such. Perhaps it needs a broader focus, though. The main section on utilitarianism in general is further down, under 'Justice as welfare-maximisation'. Cheers, Sam Clark 11:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Alexjohnc3's changes

Alex - between us, BenPhil and I have, I think, reverted all of the changes you made to the article. This isn't intended as an attack, we just don't think what you did was an improvement. In particular, you cut a section of 'Divine command theory' which we'd worked quite hard on (see discussion above) without explanation; you partially cut one of the lead sentences so that it no longer made sense; and you added a fact tag to the claim that we think that justice is important, but aren't sure what it requires, which seems to me to be common sense. One of your edit summaries is 'this page definitely needs cleaning up' - I'd be interested to know what you think is wrong with it, so we can discuss it. But please don't make any more unilateral changes to content, for the moment. Cheers, Sam Clark 09:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears to be seriously NPOV. The world is full of injustice is definitely not NPOV, so is "We are in the difficult position of thinking that justice is vital, but of not being certain how to distinguish justice from injustice in our characters, institutions or actions, or in the world as a whole". Wikipedia isn't a place to vent your feelings on the subject of justice, it's an Encyclopedia. Neither is Wikipedia the place to advance arguments, such as the one under "Divine command theory" (see WP:V). It being refuted is up to the reader to decide, not you. Nor is it up to you to argue against your own refutation. Two contradicting POVs do not make an NPOV.

As for the removal of "and it is overwhelmingly important", that isn't a complete sentence. When a semicolon is used the text should be able to stand by itself and remain remaining a sentence. Plus it didn't make any sense, so I removed it. I'm pretty busy, so if you guys could think this over and look for other violations of Wikipedia's policy it would be useful. And I'm fine with you not thinking it's an improvement, that's why we're discussing it, and I thought my reasons were obvious so I didn't really think I needed much of an explanation. =P (sorry for any grammatical mistakes, I'm in a rush.) --AlexJohnc3 ^(talk) 21:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. 1. I know that WP is an encyclopedia, thanks. I suggest you have a glance at some encyclopedias of philosophy to see how they deal with justice and other moral issues. There is no way to introduce such topics without raising moral intuitions and the dilemmas they get us into, and that's what the lead does - 'venting my feelings' has nothing to do with it. 2. I also know how to use semicolons, thanks, and you're mistaken: check under 'Stops' in Fowler's Modern English Usage, for instance. 3. The sentence you edited makes sense, or at least I don't understand your reasons for thinking that it doesn't. Your revised version - since we're discussing usage - was an ungrammatical run-on. 4. the suggestion that 'Neither is Wikipedia the place to advance arguments' is absurd - if it were true, WP could have no content relating to any complex subject, and especially no content on philosophy, which largely consists of arguments. Further, you've read the section carelessly - it offers both sides of an argument of central importance to the issue under discussion, but doesn't decide between them (it doesn't say that divine command theory is refuted, it says that it appears to be refuted, and then advances the counterargument - this is precisely the work that Ben and I did above). So, in this case, 'two contradicting POVs' definitely do 'make an NPOV': how else should we be neutral in describing an argument, except by letting both sides have their say? So, overall, I don't think this article does violate WP policy, and if you're too busy to pursue the issue, I'm happy to leave things as they are - I'm also pretty busy writing lectures for next term. Cheers, Sam Clark 23:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to insult you at all, but apparently that's how you took it. Okay, I have a bit more time now, but I'm still a bit busy, so I'll try to make this quick:

• Wikipedia relies on the research of others and it must be from a reputable source that is cited. Unlike other encyclopedias, Wikipedia itself is in no way a reputable source for anything, but the places that it receives its information from must be. If you want to raise a "moral intuition", that's fine, but please cite it. Example: "Encyclopedia Brittanica raises the question of..." Then source it.
• "the world is filled with injustice; and it is overwhelmingly important". What is "overwhelmingly important" exactly? The world? Injustice? And why is it important? Maybe I missed something, but this part seems oddly phrased to me.
• "We are in the difficult position of thinking that justice is vital, but of not being certain how to distinguish justice from injustice in our characters, institutions or actions, or in the world as a whole." The use of "we" infers that the reader thinks justice is vital and ignorant to how to distinguish between justice and injustice. This statement appears to be a bit bloated because of that.
• You may post sourced arguments on Wikipedia, but you may not post unsourced arguments that are intended (or not intended even) to advance an argument per WP:V (which I already pointed out). You can be NPOV by citing what you write from a reputable source, that's how. --AlexJohnc3 ^(talk) 00:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, AlexJohnc3, the edit you made was certainly not NPOV. WP:V is not violated (in the counter argument to divine command theory) because I took the facts from here, prehaps though it would be an idea to add it as a reference? Ben ^(talk) 20:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if you reference it that's fine. Remember to quote the source too. Thanks. --AlexJohnc3 ^(talk) 00:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Don't worry, I wasn't insulted, just mildly irritated at having my prose 'corrected' wrongly. I'm over it now. There are a few different issues here. In order of increasing importance, from 'pretty trivial' on up: 1. What is 'overwhelmingly important' is the subject of the sentence, 'this ideal'. The dashes parenthesise the second clauses of each side of the semicolon. If you really dislike the sentence, fine: the same point can be made by changing it to something like 'According to nearly all theories of justice, it is both overwhelmingly important and far from achieved: the world is filled with injustice, most people think that injustice must be resisted and punished, and many social and political movements worldwide fight for justice.' I think this is duller and less readable than the current version, but I'm not going to war over it. 2. You're equivocating on what not 'advancing' an argument means. Earlier, you seemed to suggest that it was a matter of avoiding POV (and you had misread the particular text you cut); now, you say that it's a matter of citation. If the second, then I agree with you that the article as a whole needs more supporting references. I don't have time to provide them right now, but feel free to have a look yourself, or to wait. 3. I disagree with your interpretation of WP:V, which seems to be the same narrow and constraining one currently used (for instance) in discussions of featured article candidates. The important distinction the policy makes is that the standard is verifiability not truth; it does not say that every statement, however innocuous or necessary to introduce a topic, must be quoted and cited from some other publication. To enforce the narrow interpretation would be to make writing impossible on WP, and to hamstring WP's main asset: contributors who care and know about particular subjects. So, I say ignore all rules for the sake of writing a better encyclopedia. Cheers, Sam Clark 11:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For the sake of the viewpoint...

A quote from a book I much adore, on the subject of justice.

"Justice? What's that?" the human said with an amiable smile. He turned his palm upward. "Here. Put some justice in my hand. No? Then just tell me what it tastes like, huh? What's it smell like? What color is it?" He shook his head and scooped another forkful of eggs into his mouth. "Don't talk to me about justice. We're both grown-ups here, right?"

Then, from later in the chapter...

"You were talkin' about justice awhile ago, too. How about that?"

"You said you don't believe in justice."

Tommie shrugged. "Depends. You gotta be more specific--gotta get right down to dowels and dovetails, Changeling. Don't say justice, say 'The guy who stole my purse, I want him locked up' or 'The guy who raped my sister, I want him dead.' That I can believe in. You see what I'm sayin'? You gotta be specific."

I think the viewpoint touched upon by this exchange is worth considering. Is it just to treat every similar offense the same? Howa0082 20:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I don't mean to sound unfriendly, but can I just point out that this is a page for discussing improvements to the article, not for discussing justice in general? If you're suggesting adding the quote above to the article, I'd oppose doing so, unless you can show that it represents a widespread, documented view about justice. That said, I can't resist responding a bit: the quote, if I've understood it correctly, suggests 1. that anything one can't touch, taste, smell or see is unreal, which is obviously false (consider, for example, The United States of America, marriage vows, and gravity); and 2. that abstraction is always to be avoided, which I think is also false, although less obviously so. Where's the quote from, by the way? Cheers, Sam Clark 15:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plato's dialogues

In response to Sam Clark. Thanks for the editing that you do, but please be careful about deleting too much, since some people have put years of effort into these articles. I agree that we all should add new material with care, but also delete with care and with the intent of improving what was added. Obviously we must delete false statements and absurd claims. As for my comments about Plato's dialogue on justice, it was clearly said by Socrates that the city is in speech, not reality, and that the city he describes is not only impossible, but undesirable. The philosopher kings are a bit of a self-contradiction or inconsistency. The city is used to magnify the soul, and maybe as some ideal blueprint that never will exist. It is actually a bit comical at times when Socrates describes the ideal city-state. Please try to clarify this in the article on Justice. In addition, Plato is a profound influence in history on the subject of justice and politics. I can give you the line numbers if you wish. Saying he is in the "west" is too vague. He was exiled, persecuted to some degree, and his teacher, Socrates, was killed, or forced to die if he stayed in Athens. These are hardly the dominant ideas of the west at the time, or even now. How many today read Plato really well and over and over? In fact, philosophers are often persecuted , and mainly false philosophers and false versions of their philosophy becomes popular because some humans tend to be lazy or uncareful readers. What Socrates really said is rarely read over and over again to understand his true meaning and intent. I hope this explanation helps, and I hope we all read these ancient classics with a bit more care, instead of watching too much television.joseph 14:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again - I completely agree about care in both editing and deleting, but I'd expand your list of reasons for deletion: not only false and absurd statements, but also POV and unencyclopedic material need to go. My reasoning for removing your interesting additions was not that I thought they were false, but that they didn't improve the article as an encylopedia entry. I don't really understand your comment about Plato's influence: of course he's important, but all I said was that he's not - as you'd made the article assert - the single source for philosophical argument about justice. I don't see the relevance of the death of Socrates to this point. On the city/soul analogy: as I said, there is controversy about this. You have a view about it; I remain neutral. But the points are, first, that simply to assert one side of the argument is not good encyclopedic practice; second, that in an article about justice, Plato's importance is that many people, rightly or wrongly, have taken him to be sincerely describing an ideal state, not only a virtuous person. Yours, Sam Clark 15:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corruption of Justice and its logic.

An observation.

A lawyer, (Sutherland) informed me that under the second law of justice, 'people should be treated equally if they are equal, and they should be treated unequally if they are unequal'.

There is a logical element of fairness, and discrimination in this law.

Problem is that someone has corrupted this law, by corrupting a well known phrase. Tim was here. hehehehehe. It is like someone changing a part of wikipedia and getting away with it.

The statement is as follows:

We are all equal before God. We are all equal before the Law.

Both statement include an element of logic and inference in that we are judged according to our merits, or related truths.

These two statments are corrupted to a literal half-truth.

Ie. "We are all equal'. Which is false.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 19:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I don't mean to be unfriendly, but this is page is for discussing the article and how to improve it, not for discussing its subject. Cheers, Sam Clark 09:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that the site give examples how justice can be corrupted. It is said that the greatest injustice is done in the name of justice, so here is a good example of such. Just an idea.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can provide reliable sources for such a claim, then fine. Remember, this is an encyclopedia: its purpose is to report the sum total of existing human knowldege, not to add to it. No original research is allowed. Cheers, Sam Clark 13:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The opening sentence

Justice is the ideal, morally-correct state of things and persons.

Although I think the introduction is, overall, very good, I have a couple of small points with this opening line.

First, I'm not sure if 'things' is a good term to introduce. Justice is about people and their relationships, not so much the accoutrements – handcuffs, courtrooms, prisons, and gallows.

Second, should we really be speaking of 'the ideal', as if this is something that is known, or constant? I am very optimistic, but I am hesistant to suppose that 'the ideal' of justice is something that can ever be known.

Best regards — Vranak 23:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I have since made a few minor changes. Vranak 23:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The claim that justice is not about things seems to me to be bizarre: what exactly is the HUGE literature on distributive justice about, if not things? 194.80.32.8 00:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] new approach

see: justice is mutual respect in effecting choices (2.6 under justice in Wikipedia)

I've cut this: it's not remotely a mainstream understanding of justice, and it's absurd to list it as if it were of similar standing to the other understandings in the section. 194.80.32.8 00:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just a Thought

This article really isn't bad, but it could be better. Now, i know anytime someone brings up a POV issue people get defensive, but the opening lines, I think, are a bit more loaded than they may appear. As it reads, it does the following: -Makes a conclusion about the definition of justice, despite thousands of years worth of philosophical struggle to find consensus on the question. While the statement itself is, in my POV, quite reasonable, it seems akin to opening a scientific article with something along the lines of "Life is defined by the presence of metabolism in carbon structures" and only later going into alternate definitions, historical discussions, etc. (It's interesting to see how the life) article looks in this regard, actually) -Makes a conclusion about the desirability of justice, even as an ideal. Again, while I, and most human societies in history (this line of explanation would be really good in the article--why justice gained it's reputation in socities) might agree that justice is an ideal, there are plenty of philosophers who wouldn't. Thrasymachus, Polemarchus, Callicles, Nietzsche, Foucault, perhaps Camus even (and of course their views are more complex than that, but the point remains.) -Immediately follows the opening line by stating whether the ideal is attainable is an "open question," which (unless it's just me) subtly suggests that this is the only relevant question regarding justice.

My solution, roughly, would be to consider framing the open paragraph in a more detached manner. For instance, "Justice is a philosophical(or perhaps more) concept concerning the arrangement of societies, souls, and individuals." That could be tweaked, but yall get the idea.

[edit] People vs Persons

Persons seems more accurate, has specific philosophical content ascribed to it. Anyhow.

[edit] Rambling

I've cut a couple of large chunks of unsourced POV rambling (under 'Divine command theory' and 'Demands of justice in distribution and retribution'). No offence intended, but this is an encyclopedia, and undirected musings about the topic of the article are out of place. In the second case, it was also clear that whoever wrote the cut section hadn't bothered to read the rest of the article or even the next paragraph. Martian Inca 08:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)