Talk:Juan Perón

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[edit] Older topics

This article is just fundamentally terribly written. Could use a total re-write. Also, some more discussion about why people thought the man was a dictator... 10:54, October 19th

[edit] Sources

An excellent source regarding Perón can be found in the writings of Tomás Eloy Martínez, who was born in Tucumán in 1934. Martinez is an Argentine journalist and currently a distinguished professor at Rutgers University in the United States who conducted a 4 day interview with Perón in Madrid during the exile, and has written several books about Perón, both fiction and non-fiction. Perón evokes tremendous emotional responses, even to this day, and objectivity is hard to come by, but name calling and sexual innuendos are out of place, in my opinion. Borges had no use for Perón, but Borges was a different kind of guy himself. His (Martínez's) analyses of what Peronism means are fascinating (See El Sueño Argentino) for more details. I don't believe that particular book has been translated into English, but for those who read Castilian Spanish it is very worthwhile.

Perón was educated in the military tradition of the Germans before WWII, and that accounts for much of his view of life. It doesn't make him a fascist, which is a pejorative term nowadays. He lived in a era when Argentina, like the United States, felt it had a kind of manifest destiny, and he didn't much appreciate the great economic control he saw the British had over his country. He didn't much like the Americans' arrogant view of Latin America (neither do I and I am a native-born American who lived in Argentina and learned to speak Castilian there). He did subscribe to a philosophy of Argentines owning their own infrastructure, like many other nationalists. Evita gave him a softer side towards the poor, and her death was ultimately his downfall. When I lived there in the early 60s emotions still ran high and Perón was always referred to as "Juan Domingo", never by his surname. Perón must be understood in the context of the convoluted Argentine history, from Mitre and Sarmiento to Carlos Menem and the horrible "dirty war". It has been an almost non-stop fall from being high on the list of nations as far as standard of living was concerned to being close to the bottom of the list. Argentines once considered themselves as a piece of Europe (they designed BA on the pattern of Rome and Paris, including the boulevard 9 de julio with it's obelisk) but they are now squarely a Latin American country, like it or not, and Perón is an integral part of that sad fall from grace.

But calling him names and declaring him to be a fascist, or gay, or other pejorative terms does nothing to further the discussion of his life and times.

Rcallen7 18:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph that begins Despite his alleged fascist trappings... looks problematic to me. A subsequent sentence in the same paragraph attributes The third way to Peron without recognition of its heritage in classical fascism. I think this makes the article look amateurish regardless of any potential NPOV issue. -- Alan Peakall 17:59, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also a bit off is this: "Because of his alleged fascist tendencies, Perón pursued social policies aimed at empowering the working class." His alleged tendencies caused a real-world effect, eh? I'm not sure how to reword it, though.--70.112.65.244 01:34, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps elaborate why Peron was anti-US and anti-Britain? Ratiocinate 16:10, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

And then why he was anti-Soviet. Don't leave that out.


I recent the opinion depicted in the sentence "This in all likelihood was due to his own well-known bisexual tendencies, which gave rise to notorious political ditties circulating under the rubric Que sea puto o cabrón, más vale Perón."

Where comes the fact of the "well-known bisexual tendencies"?

I'm argentinian, 44 years old, non-peronist, by the way, an avid history reader; and this is the first time I hear or read something about the issue.

What are the sources of such assertion?

Please excuse my english, I'm argentinian, I'm not peronist and I never was peronist, but I think is wrong the text that talk about "bisexual tendencies" and "homosexual". Perhaps is a fact do it for same person that hate Perón.

el ignorante

[edit] Question

Yesterday on a Google search, I found a picture of Peron, in his uniform, with a black band on one of his lapels. Did Peron wear a black band often after Evita died, and if so, for how long? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 14:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Could you give us the Link to the picture? --Marianocecowski 08:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • To my recollection, Peron put out a proclaimation that all of his men were to wear a black band on their arms after Evita died. This was for life, though of course that didn't happen because Peron was ousted only about three years after Evita died. -- Andrew Parodi 08:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Peron was anti-british ?

Regarding the line: "although he was strongly anti-American and anti-British. He confiscated much of the British and American-owed assets in Argentinia" I have serious doubts about Peron being anti-british, even when he nationalized some public services previously handled by the british, that was more or less agreed with the owners who saw little value in mananging that old infrastructure, also the payments Peron gave were more that the actives worth. After the WW2 Great Britain was retreating from some markets in that context holding and managing infrastructure in countries like Argentina proved hard. On the other hand GB hold a big foreign debt with Argentina thanks to the food Argentina exported during the war (one reason why Argentina was neutral in the conflict was because its ships were carrying food to Europe unharmed by any army). Peron allowed negotiate that debt against the decrepit railway services. Even when Peron presented this as an anti-imperialist measure, I have my serious doubts.

Peron was, first and foremost, Peronist (not anti-anything). He played the anti-American card in 1946 because of the involvement of former American ambassador Braden in the presidential campaign.
Many of his supporters and his Movement intellectuals were anti-British, though (e.g. Raúl Scalabrini Ortiz). Ejrrjs | What? 18:08, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In any case Peron was anti-Communist. As far as I know he didn't confiscate American property and the transfer of the British owned railroad system was not a confiscation. I think this paragraph need rewriting.

[edit] Missing links

Uh, this guy was married once or twice wasnt he? --SV|t 05:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He was married three times: his first wife, Aurelia Tizón, died of cancer in 1942. Then he married Eva Duarte, a.k.a. "Evita" in 1945 and she died of cancer in 1952. Finally he married María Estela Martínez, a.k.a. "Isabel Perón", "Isabelita" in 1961 and she survived him...to become, unfortunately for us Argentines, President of the country. 201.235.2.228, 21:39, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Political bias?

The article stated that "In the 1940's, Argentina became a haven for Nazi war criminals. This was done with Peron's approval". Since there is no conclusive evidence that Perón actually aided war criminals in running away from international justice (more likely, the catholic church is responsible for this, through the ODESSA organization), and since Argentina was not the only main destination of nazi war criminals, I took the liberty of rephrasing that part of the text. If anyone believes I acted wrongly, please discuss it with me. --Lobizón 04:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Your edits are fine. You could have added the church connection theory as well, but only if found any source for it. -Mariano(t/c) 09:26, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
There's lots of proof Peron gave refuge to Nazis fleeing prosecution. For example, check out this article[1] from The New York Times, reviewing The German Connection: The Laundering of Nazi Money in Argentina, by Gaby Weber. See also the entry on author Uki Goñi, who has written extensively about Peron's support and shelter of fleeing Nazis. 207.69.137.7 20:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
"But according to a book just published here that draws extensively on archival material only now being made available to researchers, his government also offered a haven for the profits of German companies that had been part of the Nazi war machine and whose assets the victorious Allies would otherwise have seized." So... the history is that Peron let nazis in, to dispose of their profits and gold bars, and benefit Argentina with the Nazi defeat? I don't understand. Why then is all this showed as a grave accusation against Peronism?

[edit] Juan Peron wasn't fascist

I think it is incorrect that this page be included in the Fascism project page. Though he has often been referred to as having been fascist, because he had expressed admiration for Mussolini, Juan Peron was not actually a fascist. There were elements of fascism to his regime, but most scholars agree that Peronism was not fascism.

Sources:

¶ "(Eva Peron) was not a fascist--ignorant, perhaps, of what that ideology meant. . . . She was far from being a saint, despite the veneration of millions of Argentines, but she was not a villain either." ~ Tomas Eloy Martinez, author of 'Santa Evita (Biblioteca del sur)', as quoted in Time magazine.¹

¶ "Peronism was not fascism... Peronism was not nazism. . . . Peronism, then, may be roughly defined as an authoritarian populist movement,strongly colored by Catholic social thought, by nationalism, by organic principles of Mediterranean corporatism,and by the 'caudillo' [military leader] traditions of the Argentine Creole civilization (pp. 220-223)." ~ 'Peron and the Enigmas of Argentina' Robert D. Crassweller

¶ "The American government demonstrated no knowledge of Perón's deep admiration for Italy (and his distaste for Germany, whose culture he found too rigid). Nor did they appreciate that although anti-Semitism existed in Argentina, Perón's own views and his political associations were not anti-Semitic. They paid no attention to the fact that Perón sought out the Jewish community in Argentina to assist in developing his policies and that one of his most important allies in organizing the industrial sector was Jose Ber Gerbald, a Jewish immigrant from Poland. (page 23)." ~ 'Inside Argentina from Peron to Menem: 1950-2000 From an American Point of View' by Lawrence Levine

¶ "The most persistent error of those who have written about him has been the tendency to see Perón consistently as a dictator. Even if there is such a thing as a 'quintessential Latin American dictator' - which is doubtful - his ambiguous record shows him not to conform to this type. For someone supposedly ruthless, his behavior was often surprisingly mild. He did accumulate great power, but his use of it was erratic rather than consistently authoritarian and when the time came he was eager to renounce his position of power to avoid bloodshed. In this he can be contrasted with some of his successors (p. 35)." ~ 'Evita: The Real Life of Eva Peron' by Fraser and Navarro

¶ "[Juan Peron] was at heart a pacifist. He steadfastly rejected violence as an open instrument of policy.... His record, while far from perfect, stands in sharp contrast to the torture and killing that traumatized Argentina in the late 1970s. Moreover, it is undeniable that the man once reviled as a South American Hitler would have never plunged or plundered his country into war (P. 502)." ~ 'Peron : A BIOGRAPHY' by Joseph Page

¹ http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html

-- Andrew Parodi 08:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct, Juan Peron was not fascist so I have removed the tag. In fact, the last sentence in the section about Peron from Kevin Passmore's book "Fascism: A Brief Introduction" is "The Peronist regime also left room for opposition - it was neither totalitarian nor fascist." (pg. 86-87) - DNewhall
    • I think that before stating whether or not he was "fascist", the contributors to this section should first study Mussolini's party and regime, which gave birth to the adjective. Indeed, most of the "refutations" above could be applied as well to the Duce, and therefore one would come to the hilarious conclusion that "Fascism in Italy and the leader who founded it were not fascist". dragon1964

But Wikipedia is not supposed to be based on "original research." Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on the previously published works of outside reputable sources. The above sources are reputable. If you want to include sources that claim he was fascist, do so. (According to Noam Chomsky, to whom I personally posed this question of Peron's alleged fascist, there is no cut and dry definition of fascism anyway.) Also, you couldn't conclude that Mussolini was not fascist, when he himself used that term to describe himself. Peron on the other hand never used that term to describe himself, nor have any Peronists ever described themselves as fascists. Andrew Parodi 08:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe it should be mentioned that at the time of his rule, it was quite common to denote authoritarian right winged rulers as fascist. However, while Perón never called himself fascist he did attempt to model Peronism after Mussolini's style of government after staying in Europe for some time. And to be exact, Mussolini invented Fascism as a method to maintain power, and as such Fascism was whatever he said it was. 190.40.92.155 04:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Characteristics of a fascist state-

  • All power to the state (heavy loss of civil liberties)
  • Dictatorship
  • Extreme anti-communist/liberal
  • Nationalistic
  • "Survival of the fittest" ideology
  • Use of military
  • Racist

Most, if not all of these characteristics are what most historians conclude to be found in most fascist states. Nazi Germany definitely had all these characteristics, Mussolini's Italy had all of these except maybe the idea of "Survival of the fittest". Once again though, Peron is a very hard person to place considering he claimed to be a fascist but it is very hard to see him displaying any racism, hatred of communists and what not. I'm not concluding anything, merely giving my opinion. Desouki 01:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tortures with Peronist flavor

  • "En 1953 se denuncia, por boca del diputado Nudelman, la aplicación de la picana. El testimonio de Juan Ovidio Zavala, obtenido una vez derrocado Perón, es clarificador: “La energía eléctrica pasa por dentro de uno. Mil alfileres de fuego se clavan en la cabeza, en el corazón, en el estómago, en la boca, en todas partes. Producen dolor, angustia, deseos de morir...Unos quieren gritar. Pero no pueden permitirse ese alivio. Los labios están cerrados con esparadrapos. A eso se llama “poner la tapa” en la jerga de los torturadores.” Y éstos pasan a tener nombre y apellido, son reconocidos por las víctimas, y aún por la población toda, como los expertos verdugos del gobierno. Son ellos el comisario Lombilla, quien iniciara su carrera con Leopoldo Lugones (h), el ayudante Amoresano y los hermanos Cardozo." From [2] Benitez, Marcelo Manuel. Rush translation to be revised, preferable by somebody who has no personal experience of such treatments or their perpetrators: In 1953 deputy Nudelman denounces applications of the electric prod. The testimony of Juan Ovidio Zavala, obtained after Perón had been overthrown, [expands Nudelman's statement]: "The electric energy flows through one's [body]. Thousand firy pins are stuck in the head, in the heart, in the stomach, in the mouth, in every [bodily] parts. They cause pain, anxiety, death wishes... Some [people] wish to shout. But they can't allow themselves such relief. The[ir] lips are closed with rugs. That is called, in the torturer's jargon "to put the lid." And these [torturers] have name and surname. They are recognized by the victims, and even by all the population at large, as the government executioners. They are police chief Lombilla, who begun his career with Leopoldo Lugones, Jr, the assistant Amoresano and the brothers Cardozo.
  • Nudelman, Santiago I.: El regimen totalitario: la antidemocracia en accion, la educacion antiargentina, la era del terror, las torturas, los presos politicos, los negociados y el enriquecimiento ilicito, en defensa de la libertad de prensa, el fraude electoral. Buenos Aires, 1960. SUMMARY: Chiefly draft resolutions and declarations presented by Nudelman as a member of the Camara de Diputados of the Argentine Republic during the Peron administration. SUBJECTS: Argentina - Politics and government - 1943-1955. DESCRIPTION: 767p. 20 cm. [3] Rush translation to be revised: The totalitarian regime: anti-democracy in accion, anti-argentine education, terror era, tortures, political prisoners, [corrupt business deals] and illicit enrichment, defense of freedom of the press, electoral fraud.
Jclerman 20:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
    • There is little evidence of voter fraud. Peron didn't need to commit fraud. He was popular enough without it. And, yes, the practice of torture was horrible. I'm not excusing it one bit, but I am reminding that it had always been a part of Argentine politics (and a part of US politics; look at the Abu Ghraib situation). And in the words of Tomas Eloy Martinez, when you compare Peron's torture to the mass murder of tens of thousands of Argentines by the military dictatorships that deposed and hated Peron, what Peron did is hardly notable. Hard as it might be for you to imagine, Juan Peron was perhaps one of the more humane leaders of 20th Century Argentina. -- Andrew Parodi 20:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, he was a fascist dictactor and gave refuge to nazis and more

Es Gracioso que un Norteamericano diga que en un presidente electo por voto de la Argentina, sea un dictador, y es peor que un yanqui diga eso cuando ESTADOS UNIDOS fue el principal receptor de asesinos NAZIS, ustedes no tienen Autoridad Moral para hablar.

A Ustedes les hacen creer que todos son los malos menos ustedes, que defienden la DEMOCRACIA en el MUNDO, ya veo como la defienden, arrojando 2 bombas atomicas sobre cililes inocentes en Japon, Atacando Irak por intereses economicos ¿ Donde Estan Las Weapons Of Mass Destruction? Dicen Que Su Causa Es Justa pero durante toda la segunda mitad del siglo 20 financiaron, promovieron e instauraron dictaduras sangrientas en America Latina para proteger sus intereses economicos. Son Capases de Hacer Cualquier Cosa por el dinero, cualquier cosa, que... me van a decir que los atentados del 11 de septiembre y las invasiones que vinieron desues son casualidad, su gobierno sabia que iba a haber un atentado y dejaron que pasara, para luego poder atacar ¿ esta en los informes de la Cia, posible atentado con aviones contra estados unidos , pero claro esa no es una advertencia como para molestarse o si¨?¿

Volviendo Al Tema de Peron: su gobierno que los maneja Como Titeres a Traes del Factor Miedo, creando amenazas falsas para controlarlos, les hizo creer que Peron era Dictador, Asesino y Nazis, nada mas lejos de la Verdad.

Dictador: Fue Elejido Por voto en todas sus elecciones,y tenia un consenzo de mas del 60 por ciento. Se creo esta imagen ya que las masas Burgesas y capitalistas (del 15 por ciento) que estaban acostumbradas a enriqueserse a costa del sufrimiento del pueblo, no se les permitia seguir oprimiendo al pueblo y regalandole la patria al Imperio Norteamericano.

Asesino: no es posible que las muertes superen el 1 por ciento delas muertes que trajo la supusta revolucion libertadora (terrible dictadura opresora que goberno a favor del 15 por ciento del pueblo, los oligarcas, y para estados unidos e inglaterra)

Nazi: a la argentina entraban tanto nazis como judios por igual, mientras que a Estado Unidos entraban en Secreto, y con grandes privilegios.

  • First and foremost, the definition of "dictator" doesn't imply any bloodshed. "Dictator" is the person holding the sum of the powers of the State (executive, legislative and judiciary) in his or her hands. The only difference between a dictator and an absolute monarch is that the former can be democratically appointed (as in the Roman Republic), and even be popular (as Julius Caesar utterly was). In this sense, Peron was a full-fledged and very popular dictator. Dictatorship is a major thing. George Washington's likely third presidency aroused in his great democrat heart doubts about its legitimacy, and he finally declined stating that "America needs presidents, not kings". Compare this with Peron's unrestrained control of the whole machinery of the State. Peronist legislators passing as laws his every minor whim, peronist judges protecting the regime instead of the citizens and their rights. If this was not oppression enough, imagine cities, streets, train stations named after the presidential couple, or being fired for not joining the Party or not mourning the late first lady... or imagine (if you can) Peronism taught at school along math and spanish. Actually, Peron's government was not just a dictatorship, but a totalitarian one. As Evita once said: "I shall not stop not until a single brick remains that is not peronist".
  • "Fascism" designates many related political systems. Stating that "peronism is neither fascism nor nazism" is merely a semantic play. The three are more alike than they are different from, say, liberal democracy or soviet-style communism.
  • Political opposition: Fully silenced opposition is not opposition at all. The only "room" the regime left to it was the right to life. The barbarian age we are living has really debased our standards. Should a dictator come to genocide to be denounced as such? Mass media were nationalized and used exclusively for peronist propaganda. Printed media who dared criticise the regime were immediately closed or nationalized or burned by the peronist "Sturmabteilung". Legislators who talked too loud were put in prison in flagrant violation of their parliamentary immunity. Demonstrators were beaten and put to prison (with luck without previous torture with the "electric picana" as mentioned above). Finally, domestic self-censorship. My (peronist) grandma always repeated to my mum: "Sweetheart, please don't repeat at school what you hear at home".
  • Nazi haven: there is much conclusive evidence, see for example "The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Peron's Argentina," by Uki Goñi. Even if this book didn't exist, there is no chance that in a police state saturated by Party spies (that would even walk down the streets and stop in front of your house while the family is having dinner to overhear the conversation), the government could have overlooked the entrance of such big shots as Eichmann, Mengele, Scwhammberger or Priebke. Many key offices like the Immigration Department were directed by war criminals convicted to death in their countries of origin and with repeated extradition requests ignored by the goverment (again: is it possible that the head of the executive could have not been aware of them?)
  • Antisemitism: Just talk to any argentine jew, for instance those who bribed their way through the filter of the antisemitic Foreign Service and Immigration Department. At at time when jews were desperate to reach the Americas, and having Argentina already the second jewish population in the western hemisphere thanks to its (gone) liberal immigration policy, tolerant society and political system, it's amazing that only a handful immigrated during the period when Peron ruled.
  • Pacifism: The comment refers to political violence. Every argentinean over 45 knows by direct experience that Peron supported terrorist organizations from his exile in Franco's Spain (was Franco fascist?) to destabilize the military regime then in power. When he finally came to the presidency, he quickly proceeded to outlaw them, but by this time they were far too strong even for him to control.
  • Anti anglosaxon: Peron like many others didn't admire nazism because he was tall and blond and liked order (for documentation, refer to Goñi's "Peron y los alemanes" or Robert Potash's "Peron y el GOU" or Ronald Newton's "The nazi Menace in Argentina 1931-1947"), but because he hated liberalism and saw in Hitler a strong and succesful force opposed to it (in a like manner to Arab support to the Afrika Korps, a liberating army against british and french colonialism). Anti-liberalism runs deep into Argentina's political tradition. Now for specific details about anti-anglosaxonism during that period, refer to Carlos Escude's "La Argentina vs. las grandes potencias".
  • For spanish readers interested in a good synthesis, get a copy of Hugo Gambini's "Historia del Peronismo". Most of its contents are difficult to believe 60 years later and with sustained support for the peronist party among argentineans. Lucky to be aged enough for having had a family and friends who witnessed most of it, even from within prison. They could be all delusional, but my mother's high school texts in my personal library with their chapters of Peronist doctrine are very material. -- dragon1964
The above posting corroborates my personal recollections. I was in that high-school generation, I had to parade like the North Koreans we see on TV, and I was in the jails that are mentioned above where I was healing from the official abuses and tortures quoted in some of the article's references. In that high-school I learned to lie in order to graduate. Then to attend college I had to pass a check of "non-dissidency" to the regime, to find that the profs were dismissed for not having signed allegiance to the regime. Sure we were terrified by being subjected to the 'block-supervisor' that spied on us, and by the reports of the telephone operators being kicked until they aborted, and by the rairoad workers found decomposing in a dump. Interestingly enough, the regime had made invisible the 'villas miseria' ("misery towns") not by elevating the poor but by enclosing them within high walls. I saw them. And when from the balcony he said tomorrow is "Saint Peron", disband in peace: it was understood as double-speach for "tomorrow is an official holiday, spend the evening and night burning and trashing suspected dissidents, the media, the universities, the church." Firemen where instructed to avoid damage of adjacent buildings, I worked in an electronics shop next to a "protected" and still smoldering building. Thanks to the previous user (understandably anonymous) I now know that most of this article refers to a non extant parallel world. Now, who is going to tell the truth and cry "the emperor has no clothes" and record these and more here, in a democratic encyclopedia? Due to Post Terror Traumatic Stress, my memories, true to the best of my recollection, are posted here unsigned, like those of my predecessor.

[edit] Imagine if you can...

  • Imagine that you are in college. Suddenly you are dragged, wounded by a huge heavy thug with a "boxer's nose" and taken to an interrogation room in one of the "special branches" of the Federal Police. They font the intelligence they lack: names. They try to "break" you by mentioning your mother. They seem to know your family. Who are these interrogators? Curiously, you had met them before, daily during 5 years: they hold administrative staff positions in your high-school. They "work" two shifts, one in the high-school, the other in the special branches...
  • Imagine that Albert Einstein died. Not a single public mention is uttered from the official physics departments. Why? Einstein is a non-person. Official policy or self-censorship? Your guess. A brief "lightning" surprise gathering just happens and one of the students requests one minute of silence and reflection. It was an act of defiance by the banned student that was interrogated as described above.
  • Imagine that you and your college friends are celebrating the birthday of one of the group. You are eating cake and joking around. A bus arrives, with a crew of "interrogators" that interview you and each one of your birthday accomplices. These are the "soft" interrogators, not the "tuff" ones. Yes, they have two kinds. They threaten with busing you to their headquarters (to meet the other ones?) if you do not confess that the purpose of the gathering was not a birthday celebration but really had subversive intentions. They leave without gathering an intelligence that was inexistent. They leave you and your family that was hosting the party with threats and encouragement to self-censorship.
  • Imagine that all of the above happens within the frame of "internal war status" and "siege status" that allow the executive to dispose of you as he wishes.
  • Imagine that while you were wounded, abused, tortured and imprisoned, the executive ordered his supporting legistature to pass a law assuring humane treatment of horses and other animals.
  • Imagine that while the animals were given the protection you were not entitled to, the Chilean Congress addressed the Argentine Congress on the issue of the hundreds of college students in the Argentine version of the "gulag". Now imagine the reply from the Argentine Congress: "those held are criminals, not students".
  • Imagine you are attending high-school graduation day. Traditionally a "students day" in which one of the prominent songs alway featured has been the "students song" (plus patriotic songs). Surprise, this graduation day a military band appears completely unexpected. And plays the music of one of the peronist songs. The baffled students, feeling offended, spontaneously drown the music by shouting the students song. What would be the response in, e.g., a USA school if such a band would appear and play a song, that you are "forced" sing, with lyrics such as: Bush, how great you are. Saint Bush, you are worth so much. You the greatest! "Forced" to sing? How? Now you connect the dots: the "administrators-interrogators" that would later give you the "treatment" were present in that graduation ceremony.
  • Imagine that after some years have passed you are attending one of the annual graduation gatherings at college. By tradition a fully student organized event. The event is disrupted by thugs on the police payroll, students are injured, abused, tortured, dragged to the interrogation environment described above.
  • Imagine that after being injured you are threatened with death if you comment on the origin of the wounds, then you spend a month being patched up at hospital with a police officer next to your bed. Then imagine that you are taken to a cell infested with lice where you meet a serial killer. Such unsafe and unclean environment keeps you awake the whole nigth and "ready" to be interrogated. Then you must, under threat, speak "selectively": not to mention your wounds but provide names. Names of whom? Students roles are in the college archives! Sure. a couple of hundred students are subsequently warehoused for six months in a cell designed for an occupancy of 80.
  • Imagine that in that same high-school mentioned above, the lady teaching Spanish had a swastika hanging from a bracelet, the gentlemen that taught inorganic chemistry and history openly discriminated against students that they imagined had Jewish names, the lady that taught economic geography gave you a failing grade if you didn't lie in your term papers which had to contain praises to Peron. Were they "following orders" or were they generating their own under the assurance that they would not be disciplined by their educational "chain of command"?
  • To be continued and cross-referenced.
    • You're anti-Peronist. I get it. However, when I state that he was not a dictator and not fascist, again, I do so as a means of presenting the opinions of neutral scholars who have written on the topic, and then I directly reference where to find their works. As I have learned, there is nothing more futile than trying to convince an anti-Peronist that Juan Peron was anything more than fascist/nazi dictator scum. If that is one's opinion, that's one's opinion. But I'm more interested in what scholars have to say on the topic, and so I quote from them. -- Andrew Parodi 10:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
    • The above comment suggests that because some scholars do not qualify Peron as nazi or fascist, then the personal experiences described in this section did not happen. First and foremost, it's completely irrelevant whether the adjectives "nazi" or "fascist" can be rightly predicated about him. What is important is whether things such as the above existed and whether or not there was a causal connection between his actions and them. Both are well established facts irrespective of political classifications. As Borges explained in the "The analytical language of John Wilkins", any classification is arbitrary and in the end, unimportant. In any case, I would like a concrete quote of any scholar who, based on documents and testimonies, denied such facts... What really exist, to my knowledge, are scholars who played such facts down (as "minor nuisances") or justified them in terms of the needs, for instance, of the "struggle for the workers rights" or the "national independence", etc., what is a completely different discussion. Second I wonder what "neutral" is? The horror of the Holocaust cannot be taken seriously if a jew writes about it because of his not being "neutral"? There are scholars who deny its existence, by the way. Should I then, following this seemingly skeptical line of thought, go to some survivor jew who saw his family walk into the chamber and say to him or her: "It's futile trying to convice a jew that there was no such thing as extermination camps?" Or that "Hitler was not a scum"? Unfortunately I must concede this point. For people who hate the jews, who think that they polluted the aryan race, that they contrived a conspirancy in the form of Capitalism and Communism to take over the world, then what Hitler did was the least they well deserved, therefore far from being a "scum" he was a great hero. Again: some qualifications are irrelevant. The point is whether Hitler was responsible for a genocide or not, irrespective of whether one is "anti-nazi" or not. The fact established, each person remains free to take sides. This is what "anti-peronists" did. They said to themselves: "this is happening, I don't like it." Facts came first, then preferences about them. This is the true time-causation, not the converse as the critic insinuates. Last but not least, stating that the personal experiences above belong to the domain of "opinions" is not only intelectually untenable, but morally a complete lack of respect for human suffering. Probably this is the worst legacy of peronism: the conviction that human beings are subordinated to "superior ends" and that anything, from oppression to death, is justified in their name. And this is regrettably true even to the extent of granting oneself the right to demote past memories to the rank of mere hallucinations. -- dragon 1964
Don't you think that the two of you would be better suited to take your anti-Peronist thoughts to a political discussion forum? This isn't a political discussion forum. This is a talk page about how to improve the article. -- Andrew Parodi 01:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1945 arrest

There seams to be a problem with the date of his arrest in 1945. I believe this problem arises because two events are mixed into one day. From this article, for instance, Perón says: " El 9 de octubre fuí obligado a renunciar al ministerio (...) Fuí arrestado (...) y se me envió a la isla de Martín García". Most probably he was forced to resing on the 9th, and arrested on the 13th. Therefore, I'm restoring the 9th as the date of resignation. Mariano(t/c) 08:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ¿Donde Naciò Peron?

a sardinian enigma in the history of Argentina 2006 82.84.180.232 anonymous Feb 2, 2006

[edit] earlier material

WHO WAS JUAN PERON? THE CASE "GIOVANNI PIRAS - JUAN PERON" (the truth on the origins of Juan Domingo Peron) (That is published by the investigation’s autors Gabriele Casula and Raffaele Ballore). One of the most mysterious and fascinating cases of the modern history of Mamoiada, a village of the central Sardinia in province of Nuoro (Italy), is with no doubt the one of " Giovanni Piras - Juan Peron ":that is to say two names, two individuals, in truth were the same person. Sure, it is hard to believe that mythical General Juan Peron, three times president of the Argentine, was, exactly, Giovanni Piras, that same humble peasant that at the beginning of the century emigrated young in South America. You will all ask why this Giovanni Piras would have had to change identity or why Juan Peron hid his true origin. Piras had to create for himself an Argentine birth in order to avoid the call to the arms for war 1915-18 from part of his native land and to escape the officials of the Italian embassy, who searched the emigrant deserters. In that period Giovanni Piras, with the aid of powerful persons that were also friends, found the most suitable situation to creep in: a substitution of person was put into effect, which served also in order to undertake the studies to the Military Academy, granted only to the Argentinean citizens, born and nationalized in Argentine. To change identity was, in fact, the sole manner to enter the Colegio Militar. Once he became the President of the Argentine Republic, to greater reason his true identity did not have to be revealed, since the Argentinean Constitution states that the President of the nation must be native of the place. An irreversible process, a point of no return had been primed; the situation became very serious and dangerous for Peron because with the person substitution a fraud had happened to the State, a serious crime and not only for a politician. To reveal the true identity meant to compromise his credibility, his deep concept of native land, of " betrayal of the native land, and of being a true, genuine and faithful Argentinean ", that he exalted and repeated in many speeches; it meant to lose his rank, his uniform and his power. To rigor of logic, this was the reason for which he hid his true identity, a much dangerous one for his position; otherwise, Peron would have shown his true origin, as he went proud of it. Peron justified his great love for Sardinia and the Sardinians saying that the paternal great-grandfather had come from that island, therefore he had Sardinian blood in the veins, but later, his alibi of this declared ancestors did not stand firm. In one of the books of Enrique Pavòn Pereyra, a personal biographer of Juan Peron, a great enigmatic draw has a sentence (dictated to the writer from the exiled Argentinean in his Madrilenian house) on how he jealously preserved the origin of his birth rate; it reads so: “I have played with my destiny a magical bet, and I was successful until today conserving my origins as deep secret”. In Mamoiada this is a case debated from almost sixty years: in the 1951 N. Tola by the newspaper “Unione Sarda”; in the 1984 P. Canneddu whith the book “Juan Peron-Giovanni Piras two names one person”; today many doubts have been cleared in the report of Raffaele Ballore an the book of Gabriele Casula “¿DONDE NACIÓ PERÓN? un enigma sardo nella storia dell’Argentina” have illustrated the proofs collected, unmasking and effectively demonstrating plenty of the contradictions of Peron and of the Argentinean historians with documents and photographs, beyond numerous documented oral testimonies and coincidences. The great Argentine press and the living biographers of general Peron never answered to the appeals to discuss the case. Their indisposition to reconsider objectively and serenely the whole story is to be interpreted like fear of the truth and that their studies on the important personage could be knocked down and mocked. The case could feed ideological earthquakes or provoke patriotic resentments. The worries for the risk of tearing open this myth are comprehensible, but the historical truth must not have compromises. From the author’s part, to prove the true identity of Peron in no way must be seen as a discourteous action towards the Argentinean people nor a way to lessen the myth of their former President: if he was elected democratically for three times it means that he must have had some merit, indeed, together with Evita he remains a mythical personage in the entire Latin American panorama. Only after reading the report and the book an objective judgment can be expressed and a conclusion can be attained. The report is documented and deposited, every information is reliable; not only the several oral testimonies are there but, this time, also documentary and photographic proofs. For more informations to the report and the book please visit the site www.piras-peron.it

That Juan Perón Sosa should have been born in Italy is a wild supposition to say the least. Perón did not show up from the blue; his family was well known in Argentine. There was certainly a cover-up about his birth, for example placing it in Buenos Aires, which has been exposed in later years. That however was arranged by his grandmother on his middle-class father's side, Dominga Duteil, to hide the fact that Perón was born illegitimate, which would have hampered his possibilities to enter in the army among other things. His father, Tomás Perón, son of medical doctor Tomás Liberato Perón, left Buenos Aires for health reasons and tried his luck in the countryside as a sheep farmer near the locality of Roque Pérez. He got involved with his seventeen year-old housekeeper, Juana Sosa, a local girl of Tehuelche Indian origin and there Juan Perón as his older brother Mario Avelino were born. Their father registred Perón as born 1995 instead of 1993, after having registred the property on his consort to give her economic protection, something Perón himself recognized to his biographer Pereyra Pavón in late years but never tried to change. Being illegitimate he was baptised with his mothers surname in 1898. His parents eventually did marry, in spite of his mother's poor origin, but not until 1901. The family tried to cover up the illegitimate beginnings to avoid social scandal; Peróns own mother, when he had reached presidency, indicated the direction in Buenos Aires where he was supposed to have been born.

WAW!! ITALIAN'S AUTORS THIS IS A SENSATIONAL CASE salutti Pedro Martinéz

[edit] new postings

[edit] peron was SARDO?

There is a theory, sustained and deduced by some Sardinian researchers (Peppino Canneddu: Giovanni Piras - Juan Peron: two names a person, Gabriele Casula: From where Naciò Peron? a Sardinian enigma in the history of Argentina - 2004 And. Condaghes, Raffaele Ballore: El Presidente www.piras-peron) according to which Perón would have been, in reality, a Sardinian emigrant, such Giovanni Piras of Mamoiada, invented him Argentinian native to escape the conscription during the first world war. The news of the Peron Sardo appears for the first time in March of 1951, in an article to signature Nino Tola, lawyer-journalist of Mamoiada. Date and place of birth are also in discussion in Argentina. The registry is contested by Hipolito Barreiro that in its publication "Juancito Sosa, an Indian Teuelche" of the 2000-Buenos Aires sustains that Juan Peron was not born to Lobos October 8 th 1895 but to Roque Perez October 7 th 1893. Recently the examination of the Dna has been in demand, not from the relatives of the Piras (what you/they have not had ever pretended on the succession), but from the Argentinian Marta Susana Holgado, that has promoted a cause near the Argentinian magistracy sustaining to be daughter of Perón and complaining a part of its inheritance. 2006 82.84.180.232 anonymous Feb 2, 2006.

[edit] two actions of birth of Juan Pomingo Peron

The book of Gabriele Casula "From where Nacio Peron? A Sardinian Enigma In the History Argentina" you/he/she has revealed some non secondary contradictions on the origins of Juan Peron. And' known that the official registry has been contested by Hipolito Barreiro. The writer Gabriele Casula thinks with interesting documentation that the hypothesis of the Peron Sardo can be discussed even if the Argentinian historians have always underestimated the declarations of sardità of the same Peron. Of the theme, that is to heart of thousand of Sardinians from more than sixty years in Sardinia speaks as of a legend, of a mystery that inexplicably you/he/she has not been disclosed yet. Have we asked there however because the Argentinian historians have never investigated on the Sardità of Juan Peron? Today we cannot offer yet, unfortunately, those tests and those certainties that would allow us to definitely close the matter it posts to his/her time (1951) from Nino Tola in the Sardinian (du Juan Peron been born to Mamoiada in Sardinia) union but we can affirm with conviction that in Argentina they don't exist, according to the controversies of these years between historians and biographers of that Country, enough tests to show his/her birth in Argentina. Explains me the Argentinian historians and the sceptics of the Piras-Peron case because identical two actions of birth of the General Juan Domingo Peron exist. I report me to the action of birth of Peron, the n. 228 of the Register de las Personas of the commune of Lobos. Of this action two exist original. I clarify better. The action of birth that in all the parts of the world it is unique apiece of us, in the case of Juan Domingo Peron it is double: two original actions with the same content and the same hand. With equal but different signatures apparently. One with 21 lines the other with winds lines. An authentic forgery that doesn't seem to find some explanation if not in the confirmation than affirmed by Hipolito Barreiro.2006 82.84.180.232 anonymous Feb 2, 2006

[edit] A forgery registry document on the origins of Peron?

The fact that original two actions of birth exist, therefore counterfeit, it means that can have put documentalmente in discussion its birth in Argentina: a possibility in more to the hypothesis of the Peron Emigrante as from sixty years the Sardinians write. The actions of birth cannot have been counterfeit from Mario Tomas Peron in 1895 (presumed date of birth of Peron in Argentina), would not have had some sense. To whom served the registry manipulation? It served to the same Peron for two possible motives: 1) to enter the military school under different name 2) to confirm a substitution of identity already happened in the military school with false registry documents, in following (to have started since 1952-1953, in full Plan Lobos, as Hipolito Barreiro writes) epoch it was essential to give certainties to the insistent suspects of the political opposition. In the Primo and in the second case that documents have returned profits to a man, to a person, that doesn't correspond to that suitable anagraficamente in that action of birth. Here is a valid reason to say that Juan Peron could be the emigrant Sardinian Giovanni Piras. 2006 82.84.180.232 anonymous Feb 2, 2006

[edit] SUGGESTION

Start a new article on the Piras-Peron controversy. Jclerman 21:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A lot of no important info, little relevant info

On the same note - what does the inclusion of the paragraph about aviation have to do with Peron? And much of the language in this biography, such as the use of the word "and other stuff" sounds informal. This page needs to be rewritten...

What is the relevance of including, in this short, article the job of the third wife of Peron? I didn´t see that kind of information in other biographies!! It looks like somebody wants to manipulate the content. Same thing about nazis in the Americas (not only South America as the article says, remember Von Braun and the American shuttle program). If you mention that Peron could knwon about the nazis coming to America, you also must say that Truman and Eisenhower allowed that also, and it is true. But don`t do that because you don`t like Peron and you want to suggest he was a nazi. I include in the article that Peron was one of the first in recognizing Israel in 1947; this couldn`t be donde by a nazi. In Argentina (for good to ones, and for bad to others) Peron changed the country. Most of workers up to now, supported his policies; most of middle and high class people, up to now hated him. This is a fact. But this love/hate situation has nothing to be with the nightclub job of his third wife. Peron died 30 years ago. Try to be neutral. Please!! Kind regards for all of you --Roblespepe 18:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

See this and this and this Then read and reflect on these and published witness accounts.
You are not talking about Peron, you are talking about Argentina. Fascism and nazism was very present in Argentina. But not only during the Peron's government, also before and after; and not only in the Peron's party, also in the radical party, in the conservative party, and in the Comunist party; also in the army and in bussiness. And not only in Argentina, also in France, England, Poland, the Catholic Church, and United States (that didn`t went into the II War because of the nazis but because Japan attacked it). But this is not an article of nazism/fascism in Argentina, or in the world out of Germany. This is an article about Peron, and is necessary to talk about Peron with historic documents. All this hate between peronists and anti-peronists leaded to a non-historic aproach based on trash materials (for both sides). I expect WP people, and most, young people, could go through that old fight, and talk about real history. Nazis was not a matter of a teacher with nazi's flags. Was about mass murders. Argentina had no mass murders until 1976, and they were anti-peronists, with the support of a lot of socialistas, comunists, radicals, bussinessmen, the Church, and also some peronists. Please talk about history. Kind regards for you, no-signer guy. --Roblespepe 06:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perón's position as head of the Department of Labor was elevated to a cabinet-level secretariat in November of 1943. (Baily,84; López, 401)

This statement has been commented out until full references for Baily and López are given. Jclerman 02:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More info about opossition between peronists and antiperonists

I add this reference writen by the uruguayan writer Eduardo Galeano:

Another famous painting revealing the strong oposition between peronists and anti-peronist appeared at the high class districts in the 1950s saying, "Long live cancer!" (¡Viva el cáncer!), when Eva Peron was dying because of the cancer [1].

Regards --Roblespepe 01:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peron's family was Irish?

Did someone insert that as a joke? I have only ever heard that Peron's father's side was Italian. I've heard that their name was originally Peroni. I've also heard that they descend from Piedmonte and Sardinia. Andrew Parodi 08:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

changed some language in section on first term. Dawson 18:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)dawsong

[edit] Fascist-Catholic?

I would be pleased to know on what evidence the leaders of the 1955 coup can be defined as 'Fascist-Catholic'? White Guard 23:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peron was a fascist, demagogic dictator

As anybody that lived in that time and was not brainwashed with his politics can tell, he used demagogic tactics to lure the poor to be his henchman, pursue people that wasn't ok with him, and do all the 'cool' things that any dictator should do.

He was a populist caudillo in the Latin American tradition, not a Fascist. Fascism has become such a hazy concept that it is possible to define virtually anyone in those terms. Peron was a Fascist who was seemingly overthrown by 'Catholic-Fascists' in 1955! When is a Fascist not a Fascist? White Guard 23:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I was going to remove this section based on WP:BLP, but I thought important. It is of course possible for Fascists to overthrow other Fascists. It only takes some lust for power and a justification based on ideological differences you can find, however minor they are. I'm not saying this was the case of Perón and the folks of the Libertadora.
Fascism is not well-defined but it's not such a hazy concept. There are some signs to tell whether a government is fascist: corporativism, greater power of the state, censorship, a personality cult... —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 16:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, Peron had it all : great power, repression of the opposition, jews, and minorities, a personality cult that last to this days "...Peron Peron que grande sos..." (Peron, Peron, how great you are...)...
Pablo, could those elements not also apply to Castro's Cuba? Clio the Muse 00:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure no-one has called Cuba a fascist state. If you read Fascism, it says that its definitions are multiple. I'm by no means an expert, but I think Cuba is not corporatist; as a Socialist country, it's in principle "horizontally collectivist" (I'm reading up on that at this very moment) and tends towards egalitarianism (while Fascist corporatism is elitist and anti-egalitarian). By corporatist I mean (approximately) having Big Business as an important part of its political process (as is the case in the United States and the People's Republic of China [!]). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that response, Pablo; but I'm still puzzled. The differences between the 'corporate' and the 'collective' state seem to me to be paper thin; and while Cuba may not be 'fascist' it certainly shares some of the features you mention (power of the state, censorship, personality cult) with orthodox fascist states. Anyway, going back to Peron let's look at his case-and his alleged fascism-in a little more detail. As I understand it fascism is based on an alliance of radical middle-class elements and traditional power elites, usually in some kind of common front against organized labour. But is this true of Peron? Was his first presidency not constructed with the support of the Argentinian labour movement and against traditional elites, known in Peronist parlance as the 'Oligarchy'? What kind of fascism, moreover, could unite radical left-wing and radical right-wing elements in opposition to military dictatorship, as Peronism did after 1955? I do not deny that Peron took some of his political style from Mussolini's Italy, where he served for a time as a military attache, but Peronism would seem to be a far more complex, Latin American and Argentinian movement, to be fitted comfortably within a European fascist straightjacket. I, too, am not an expert in this matter; but I think it important that these issues are made clear. Clio the Muse 22:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

(Backing up indent...) Note that Perón gathered support from the popular classes and took power from the elites, but in turn he also created a new powerful class of labour union leaders, as well as an industrial establishment. Anyway, it is quite plainly the case that a state is fascist when a number of historians have agreed to call it so. :) In Wikipedia's case, that's precisely the criterion we must follow; it's fine that we discuss the matter here, but voicing our opinions in the article would be original research. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 00:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article should include a section with the critiscism about Peron

Just that, there is a lot of negative stuff that Peron did, and should be noted. Even his legacy is of violence. Check what peronists did the 17/Oct/2006. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.114.255.2 (talk • contribs) 07:36, 19 October 2006.

If you have well-documented criticism of Perón (as opposed to "negative stuff"), bring it on. If you're not sure, post it here first. Your last comment is your opinion and has nothing to do with Perón himself;the bizarre happenings of 17 October 2006 have already been mentioned in the last part of this article anyway. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 16:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some material about the brainwashing of kids by Peron's regime

This are real educational books of the time of Peron, which kids were forced to read on public schools.

Please check them.

This is another proof of the personality cult. The birth of Peron was celebrated as "Saint Peron", and the day that Eva died, everyone was forced to wear a black band on the arm.

examples of one of the books http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/280/1158189205fcg2.jpg

The page reads "In the new Argentina, everyone is happy. This is because of Peron. That's why every Argentine loves Peron with all his soul "

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/8511/1160966329fam9.jpg

The page reads "Peron is a good governor. Offer and orders with firmness. The leader loves us all. Hail the leader"

Posted on 15:17, October 20, 2006 by 200.114.130.51

These materials read as the North Korean books do. And we had to march, parade, and display banners as they have to. By choice... of the great leader Saint Peron: my General, how worthy are thou! 69.9.26.143 22:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the jpgs from the children text books. Is it there a public domain mp3 for the march? it would be a nice addition to the article. Bakersville 01:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear 200.... and 69....: you need not show "proof" that Perón had a personality cult built around himself. We know that. We're not judging Perón. What we need is good historians' books (or essays, news articles, documentaries, etc.) that explain Perón's personality cult, so we can quote that in the article. Lose the anti-Peronist attitude, get well-documented facts, and let's integrate them into the article.

I was just thinking, could we possibly get those scanned book pages in here? I'm not sure what copyright laws apply in the case of textbooks. They would make a very nice illustration of Peronist public education. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Those books are made by the Argentine gov, they were the official educative text books to learn to read, I think that they can be posted here without fear of copyright laws. Of course, we should make a public education section with text about what Peron did with public education (was a important thing that he did, the modification of public education, I mean), I'm going to check next week the library of my college to see if I can find books that have references to the Peronist public education of that time, to make a resume of it, and I'm going to try to buy a copy of the original text book, to scan more of it, if it is not too expensive (I think that I saw that book on some San Telmo libraries) [I think it means bookstores]. Posted October 22, 2006 by 200.114.130.51.

[edit] Uterine cancer

Did both his first two wives die of uterine cancer ? -- Beardo 04:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

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