Talk:Joseph de Maistre

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As this stands, everything seems to be from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1910 (public domain). Beyond the first two paragraphs is verbatim. -- Jmabel 03:59, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've now edited a little & wikified. I've done my best to translate the titles of his works; someone may know better about names under which translations may have been published. -- Jmabel 05:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Note to WHEELER: I reverted your edit because "conservatism" is seen as an ideology by virtually all educated people, including most conservatives. Your belief that conservatism is not an ideology, but rather "the truth", is a very biased POV that you are free to hold, but not to introduce here. It is an opinion so far in the minority that, in my opinion and the opinion of everyone else, as near as I can tell, Wikipedia need not address it. Jwrosenzweig 19:07, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think the question of whether conservatism is properly an ideology is an interesting one; the article on Conservatism discusses it at some length. My own view would be that de Maistre's breed of conservatism was precisely an ideology, although Burke's (which mainly emphasized institutional continuity and constitutionalism) arguably was not. But in the context the word appears here, I don't think it matters either way. At best it is le mot juste, at worst it is not, but it's not misleading. -- Jmabel 04:37, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Recent edit 2 Baudelaire 3 Was not French! 4 De Maistre point of view.

[edit] Recent edit

There was a recent major anonymous edit. Someone who knows more about de Maistre than I should review. In particular, I find is a little bizarre that this removes from the lead, without comment or citation, the statements that he is French, and that he supported not just monarchy but absolutism. Again, though, I don't really know de Maistre's life and work, and I presume someone else here does. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:45, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baudelaire

Why was "the decadent poet Charles Baudelaire" changed to just "the poet Charles Baudelaire"? It seems a useful bit of identification for anyone who might not know Baudelaire well. It should probably be linked to Decadent movement, not decadence, but it is otherwise correct. Barring a good case to the contrary, I will restore it (with the different link). - Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I gave a day or so for reply; I'm editing; if it is in dispute, please discuss here. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

no dispute, just my ignorance. being unaware of the decadent movement, i just took it as an opinion of somebody about baudelaire. sorry. this way the link is fixed and that's good. trueblood 21:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's wrong to call him "decadent". Take a book on French literary history and you'll read that Baudelaire was a precursor of the Decadent movement, and not actually "decadent". He was a contemporary of late Romanticism. I removing the word, as I believe the labeling is wrong. Any doubt, I repeat, please read a book. 201.19.144.3 15:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Was not French!

I don,t Know why, against history, should be French. Savoy is part of France from 1860, before was integrant part of Kingdom of Sardinia; and after he has never wanted be French: he has written about himself in "Consideration sur la France" that he did't wont be French. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:84.220.216.47}27 November 2006|84.220.216.47}27 November 2006]] ([[User talk:84.220.216.47}27 November 2006|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/84.220.216.47}27 November 2006|contribs]]) .--URBIS 19:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The body of the article claims only that he was "French-speaking," which is of course true. To label him an "Italian writer" because he was legally a subject of the Kingdom of Sardinia seems to me very misleading. Maistre's ancestors were French, he wrote in French about French affairs, and his intellectual influence was by far the greatest in France. The place where he was born is now part of France, not Italy. Though I agree that the categories of "French counter-revolutionary" and "French writer" are slightly problematic, they seem to me justified, and preferrable to available alternatives (or to their elimination). -- Eb.hoop 01:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

He born and he died in Kingdom of Sardinia and has been in Sardinian government; he wrote in Considérations sur la France: « Je ne suis pas français, je ne l'ai jamais été et je ne veux pas l'être, (in en: I’m not French, I never been French and I don’t wont be French). Is true, he was French speaking, but it doesn’t mean anything (at that time was normally for European aristocracy to speak and write French). Not everybody that is English speaking, or English writing, is truly English citizen. I find ordinary that he wrote about French affairs: he was against French Revolution! Savoy is part of France from 1860, before, (with all his history), was integrant part of Kingdom of Sardinia (so… part of Italian history). Doesn’t mean anything if Maistre's ancestors were French: Robert De Niro’s ancestors were Italians, but Robert De Niro is nowadays an American citizen. I think misleading is what you have written.--80.104.249.99 22:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)--URBIS 19:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, eb.hoop lets discuss first....but.... I'm still waiting for an answer.--URBIS 19:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's first distinguish two different questions: whether Maistre was Italian, and whether he was French. It seems to me that labelling him Italian is very misleading and quite unjustified. Italy did not even exist as a country until forty years after he died. Do we list as "Italian writer" anyone else who wrote exclusively in French? The body of the article claims only that he was "French-speaking," which is correct. It also describes him as a Savoyard and a subject of the King of Sardinia, all of which are exact. I therefore see no reason to change the body of the article.

The problem comes only from the inclusion of the categories "French writer" and "French counterrevolutionary." If by "French writer" we mean a member of the French culture who wrote in French, then Maistre was one. If we mean a writer who was legally a French national, then he was not. Similarly, if by French counterrevolutionary we mean a French-speaking intellectual who opposed to French Revolution, then he was one. If we mean a legal French national, then he was not. This ambiguity is inevitable because historically European nationalities are ambiguous: the legal definitions often don't match the cultural ones, and the cultural ones are subject to debate. (Was C.S. Lewis Irish or British?) This debate is ultimately unresolvable. But I think it's far more useful, given the available alternatives, to list Maistre as French, since that's the culture and civilization he represented and to which he addressed himself in his writings. -- Eb.hoop 21:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

To butt in, knowing nothing of the man other than what is written—well written—in the article, I would say that Category:French writers is highly problematic. It defines itself explicitly as a national category, rather than as a linguistic one:

This is a category of writers of French nationality.

A better choice would be Category:French-language writers, which includes Giacomo Casanova, for instance, and also sub-cats such as Category:Canadian writers in French. I would think that the best choice would be to be explicit and put him in a new sub-cat called something like Savoyard writers in French. —Ian Spackman 02:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:French Counterrevolutionaries also seems to me to present problems. I don’t see any obvious solution, but I’ll comment anyway. My first thought was: ‘will this category include Edmund Burke? If so, then no problem.’ But the answer is: ‘No.’ Because

This category includes French politicians and intellectuals whom opposed themselves to the 1789 French Revolution….

[Before continuing I had better correct that grammatical howler! Done—aren’t wikis wonderful?]

The parallel category employed in the French Wikipedia article fr: Joseph de Maistre, by contrast, does include Burke: the nationality-neutral fr:Catégorie:Contre-Révolutionnaire, which is a sub-cat of fr:Catégorie:Personnalité de la Révolution française.

The ‘national’ categories the French Wikipedia places him in are fr:Catégorie:Personnalité politique italienne, fr:Catégorie:Personnalité de la Savoie, fr:Catégorie:Histoire de Savoie, fr:Catégorie:Académie de Savoie and fr:Catégorie:Philosophe italien. The German Wikipedia categories are all non-national and non-linguistic. The Dutch Wikipedia describes him as ‘een Italiaans politicus, schrijver en filosoof’ and places him in various categories beginning with ‘Italiaans’. The Spanish Wikipedia puts him under es:Categoría:Filósofos de Italia and the Italian under it:Categoria:Filosofi italiani.

I seem to be getting a picture of someone who is not regarded as French, but who is regarded as Italian. (Describing people as Italian did not begin with the Risorgimento, of course.) —Ian Spackman 03:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

A P.S. which I cannot resist. (Forgive me.) Any thoughts on adding Victor-Emmanuel II de Savoie to a French kings category? He wasn’t born in the Kingdom of Italy, much of his kingdom ended up in France, and I believe that he spoke French much more fluently than Italian. I think I might just convince myself… —Ian Spackman 03:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you should take the current usage of the French version of this article as guidance. The same user who wants Maistre re-labelled in the English version recently had him relabelled in the French version. He used to be categorized as French over there also. I don't know about the Italian version, but that can be investigated. I do know a bit about Maistre, and aside from the purely legal standpoint, it seems to me clear that he was always been regarded as a Frenchman (quite unlike Vittorio Emanuele). -- Eb.hoop 03:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly what’s the problem with using the Category:French-language writers? Secondly what do you make of the quote above from Considérations sur la France? (It seems pretty telling on the face of it, but I don’t know whether it is accurate, or what the context is.) —Ian Spackman 06:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the quote given is either fabricated or its source is not as indicated. You can check the full text of Considérations sur la France here: [1]. He does say "Je ne suis pas français," but he never says that he has never wished to be one. The context is him explaining that he is ignorant of the political intrigues within French monarchist circles because he does not live in France.

One point that Maistre stresses greatly (and on which he quotes Hume) is that certain important constitutional principles can never be reduced to perfectly clear universal rules, but that one must instead be guided in practice by delicate notions of decency, common sense, and good faith. I think there is a parallel here with the problem of defining who is French (or, for that matter, who is Irish, German, Italian, Polish, etc.) I can't give you a perfect universal rule for determining who is a French writer. But I think most people who are familiar with him would see that it makes good sense to call Maistre French, as does, for instance, the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

At any rate, the facts of the case are made very clear in the article. My vote is to keep the categories as they are and I strongly oppose relabelling him as Italian, but if others vote to change the category to French-language writer, I could see myself going along with that. -- Eb.hoop 07:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Italian history doesn’t start in 1861. Kingdom of Italy is the natural evolution of Kingdom of Sardinia. In 1861 there was not a foundation (ex-novo) of a new State, but kingdom of Sardinia just changed name in Kingdom of Italy and the Statuto Albertino was replaced only in 1948. Kingdom of Sardinia history is part of Italian history like House of Savoy history is part of Italian history: If you got doubts about that, we cannot go on because for Italians and for all historians that notion is elementary. Following your method, Belgians writers should not exist, because Belgians write in French: but Belgians are not French. In Anglo-Saxon world should exist only English writers and not Australians, or Canadians or Americans writers. Above all, De Maistre was a Kingdom of Sardinia citizen and he was loyal to his king: the King of Sardinia, not the King of France. De Maistre was Italian like Machiavelli was Italian, like Leonardo, like Cavour, like King Vittorio Emanuele I, Vittorio Emanuele II , et c… et c…. By --URBIS 09:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I would not object to the idea of placing him in both categories (Italian-Savoiard writer and French writer). But replacing French with Italian? Yes he was born and served a kingdom which later became part of Italy, but in terms of intellectual inclinations, inspirations he was probably more French. Transylvanus 01:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Lanza del Vasto, for example, was an Italian writer in French language, not a French writer! De Maistre was an Italian writer in French language, not a French writer: he was not French. Idem for Casanova...etc. etc. --URBIS 10:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me reiterate a few important points I've made already:

A. Unlike Casanova, Maistre has always been considered by most to be French. The Encyclopaedia Britannica calls him a "French polemical author, moralist, and diplomat." Even if he was not legally a French subject or citizen, he was culturally a Frenchman through and through. I think that in debatable matters like this one, we should adhere to the established usage.

B. The quote from Considérations sur la France provided by URBIS seems to me to have been substantially altered from the original. If I'm wrong please provide evidence to the contrary.

C. Chambéry (and most of Savoy) are presently under French administration. This article is not a good place to push an agenda on whether this is a fair arrangement.

-- Eb.hoop 01:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

A) - I,m sorry, what Encyclopaedia Britannica says, after the study published in the journal Nature last year, I don’t think that it’s a so reliable source. Anyway, Italians know their history as well, (without asking to Britannica) and they know that in 1860, when Savoy was ceded to France, who was agree to keep Italian nationality, was able to keep it, and a lot of people they have Kept it (see for example[[2]]). All Italians even know that House of Savoy heritage is part of Italian history, otherwise they wouldn’t have been crowned kings of Italy! B) - About Considérations sur la France, I just quote fr. Wikipedia and I’ve not write the article. Anyway, as you have already written, he said.. ..I’m not French.. and I think is enough, I don’t need to Know nothing more about his nationality preference. C) - About Savoy, nothing to say: after 1860 is French territory--URBIS 15:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I will not continue this debate beyond this point, but will rather let the community reach a consensus. Here are some other mainstream sources which identify Maistre as French:

The Catholic Encyclopaedia calls him a "French philosophical writer" (see [3])

Historian Peter Davies has written a book entitled The Extreme Right in France, 1789 to the Present: From de Maistre to Le Pen (see [4])

The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica identifies Maistre as a "French diplomatist and polemical writer" (see [5])

Books on Maistre by McGill-Queen's University Press are listed under the category of French history (see [6])

-- Eb.hoop 20:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There at least three good reasons to describe de Maistre as French.

• Scholarly works describe him as such.
• His native place belongs to modern day France.
• His mother tongue was the French language, he wrote in French.

The arguments for an Italian identity of de Maistre arn't so convincing:

• he was born in an area which had many ties with Italy including its rulers, and the language.
• according to URBIS he said ..I’m not French.. but that does not equal "I'm Italian" does it? Transylvanus 09:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • ..Scholarly works describe him as such.. A) Not all over: scholarly works describe him as Savoyard in Italian books - knowing, Italians, that Savoy was ceded only in 1860.
    • ..His native place belongs to modern day France.. A) His native place in 1753 (date De Maistre born), was placed in Kingdom of Sardinia, and in 1821 ( when he’s pass away), was still in K.oS. People born in Savoy after 1860 they are French, and I’ve nothing to say about.
    • ..His mother tongue was the French language, he wrote in French.. A) In that part of Italy (kingdom of Sardinia) to speake and to write French was quite normal and people leaving in western alpine regions of Italy, such Piedmont and Aosta Valley, actually, they still speak Piedmontese and Arpitan, and they are francophone, anyway at that time, was routine for European aristocracy to speak and to write in French.
    • ..he was born in an area which had many ties with Italy including its rulers, and the language. A) People born in Aosta Valley (Duchy of Savoy and Duchy of Aosta they always have been part of House of Savoy) actually speak French, but doesn’t mean they are French, or that - in the past - they have been French. People leaving in Savoy's States and all Savoy House’s territories, they have always fought (at least from 1031 BC, see County of Savoy) against France to keep their independence: they were not French at all.
    • ..according to URBIS he said ..I’m not French.. but that does not equal "I'm Italian" does it? .. A) K.oS. was an independent State and all people living inside his boundaries, they had Sardinian citizenships - changed after 1861 (40 years later De Maistre’s die) in Italian citizenships. He said ..I’m not French! consequently, because he was not stateless, he was a K.oS. citizen. Honestly I think that Wikipedia should not follow everything Britannica has written an I Think that is useful to create a category of Italian Writers in French language By --URBIS 13:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Having seen no objections, I'm going to move the article Joseph de Maistre to the category Italian Writers in French language--URBIS 21:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

A consensus has not been reached, since most of the users who have expressed an opinion oppose the relabelling. It seems to me that all of your argumentation is based on the premise that having been a legal subject of the King of Sardinia implies that one is automatically "Italian." I understand the thinking behind this, but please keep in mind that this is a point of view not shared by many historians. It's not only Britannica that calls Maistre French: all other mainstream sources that I'm aware of do so as well. You state that in Italy Maistre is widely considered Italian. Could you provide documentation of this?

It's always a good policy, I think, to assume good faith. But it disturbs me that URBIS has, for example, edited the article on Lagrange to relabel him as exclusively Italian, even though Lagrange worked most of his life in France, sat in the French Senate, was made a count of the French Empire by Napoleon, and was buried in the Panthéon. -- Eb.hoop 23:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

If - (for example) - Eb.hoop during all his life, declare that him is an American citizen, and he confirm that he desire really to be an exclusive American citizen, for which reason, after his dead, same historians should declare that - Eb.hoop is a Mexican citizen just because Eb.hoop was writing and speaking Spanish? About Lagrange, I was in a good faith when I have changed Lagrange article into category Natives of Kingdom of Sardinia: he’s born in 1736 in the Kingdom of Sardinia. Any italian source say that de Maistre is French, but Savoyard (Savoy = Kingdom of Sardinia until 1860):[[7]],[[8]], [[9]], [[10]], [[11]], [[12]].--URBIS 23:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] De Maistre point of view.

De Maistre has been very clear about his preference: here [13] we find: .....Domando la giustizia. La si deve anche al nemico. Lungi dal volermi far passare per quello che non sono, mi faccio anzi un dovere di dichiarare che nessuno forse ha odiato più di me la Rivoluzione francese e ne ha meglio date le prove. Domando di essere radiato dalla lista degli emigrati, come straniero, non essendo mai stato francese, non essendolo e non volendolo mai essere; e quando anche ci si ostinasse a considerarmi tale, pur non potendo impedire al Governo francese di volere ciò che vuole, io persisto a richiedere la mia radiazione.........in English words:....... I’m not French, I never been French and I don’t wont be French.......... I think - nowadays - (but even in the past time) is (and was) enough to do not consider him as French writer or French counterrevolutionary. --Shardan 08:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

This quotation is problematic, as it is unsourced and translated into Italian by an unknown person. Also, Shardan's translation into English is very tendentious. Maistre surely was never a French legal subject or citizen, and as a staunch Catholic monarchist he clearly did not wish to be a citizen of the Revolutionary French government. But he was also never a citizen of Italy, which did not exist in his day. He was a Frenchman by heritage, culture, and language. As the article states, he considered France to be the most important nation in the world, and God's main instrument for good and evil in the world. His intellectual influence was greatest in France and most sources, as mentioned in the discussion above, label him as French.

At Wikipedia we don't take it upon ourselves to correct mainstream sources on problematic issues of interpretation, and we operate by consensus. As a compromise, Maistre is now labeled both Italian and French in the categories, while the text of the article mentions only the facts: the he was Savoyard, culturally French, and a subject of the King of Sardinia. I think this is how it should remain. -- Eb.hoop 19:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

....We are not here to correct mainstream sources on their interpretations. Besides, Shardan is open to an equivalent accusation of confusing the K. of Sardinia with Italy...... Ehm..  !! I’m coming from Sardinia, and your words are a little bit offensives !.....I know my region history and I don’t confuse anything at all ! Your words are not appropriate at all !! ........This quotation is problematic, as it is unsourced and translated into Italian by an unknown person...... The source is: I grandi atleti del trono e dell'altare, by : Barone Alessandro Augusto Monti della Corte (Vittorio Gatti Editore, Brescia 1929) and is not an unknown person: .......Monti della Corte Alessandro Augusto (* Brescia 21-1-1902 + ivi 19-12-1974), Nobile Patrizio di Brescia, Cavaliere d’obbedienza del Sovrano Militare Ordine di Malta, Cavaliere di Giustizia del S.M.O. Costantiniano di San Giorgio, Medaglia di bronzo al Valore Militare decorato sul campo a Gondar nel 1941, Commendatore dell’Ordine del merito Nazionale Ungherese, Cavaliere Ufficiale dell’Ordine Coloniale della Stella d’Italia, Cavaliere dell’Ordine pontificio di San Silvestro Papa and Professore emerito dell’Università di Pavia....... De Maistre was even writing in Italian, even if for you Italy was not existing at that time.......(what a nonsense !) Mainstream sources consider him as Savoyard....... not as French ! And Savoy, until 1860, was part of Kingdom of Sardinia.........with or without your agreement ! --Shardan 22:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It has never been my intention to be offensive. But surely just as Savoy is not the same thing France, the historical Kingdom of Sardinia is not the same thing as Italy. Please see the previous discussion in this talk page for a list of mainstream sources that label Maistre as French. In any event, Maistre, even though never a French subject or citizen, is a major figure in the history of France. His role in the history of Italy is very much smaller. -- Eb.hoop 23:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Kingdom of Italy was the natural evolution of Kingdom of Sardinia, and Statuto Albertino (Sardinian Constitution) was changed solely in 1948 with Republican constitution). In 1861 kingdom of Sardinia just changed name in Kingdom of Italy, but the State has remain the same State. About de Maistre, officially was born in Kingdom of Sardinia, officially was a Sardinian citizen; officially he went to study in Turin University; officially he was a Sardinian magistrate, a Sardinian diplomatic, writer, philosopher, until his death, officially happen in Turin, Kingdom of Sardinia capital. If you got official documents or official sources that show he was officially French, please show them on Wikipedia. If you quote Britannica (IMHO, in that case, non reliable source, show as well official sources that allow Britannica to state that Joseph de Maistre was officially a French subject. About de Maistre culture, that one was the same culture of Sardinian Royal House..... not more not less....and kings of Sardinia - later kings of Italy - there weren’t French at all, but simply Italians. By--Shardan 18:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there is anything that can be usefully added to this debate. I think it should be quite clear by now that the issue of labeling Maistre as "Italian" or "French" is controversial. Shardan's edits tend to increase rather than reduce this controversy. Furthermore, by calling him "Italian" in the lead, rather than "French-speaking Savoyard," and by removing the categories that link him to France, Shardan is reducing the amount of information conveyed to the Wikipedia reader. I call upon other users to step in on this matter. -- Eb.hoop 16:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please, Eb boop, show official sources or official papers! …. (Britannica is not enough!)--Shardan 17:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"French" may be problematic, but "Italian" is downright anachronistic. If we want to create a category for Savoyard, fine; if not, I guess we can use the misleading "Italian", though it seems odd to me. But, in either case, I would be inclined to put him in the French category as well, because, if nothing else, he is widely considered to have been so, and someone would reasonably look there to find him, which is what the category scheme is mainly about. - Jmabel | Talk 07:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I’m Italian and like every Italian, I feel de Maistre part of my history. I don’t understand all this mess: even for French Wiki de Maistre is Italian![14] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.220.0.165 (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC).