Talk:Joseph Sobran

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/Archive1 - (Oct 2005 - 20 April 2006)

Contents 1 New page? 2 Orthodox Catholic 3 Controversial Bits 4 Syndicated columnist?

[edit] New page?

Now that the defamation crew is gone (for now) can someone who knows how archive this page and start a new talk page? St. Jimmy 20:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. I'd also like to extend a request to everyone involved that any changes that even MIGHT be controversial, bring them here first and see if we can't hash them out. I'd hate to see another situation like before, except with real people. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 20:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox Catholic

• Sobran holds orthodox Roman Catholic views on abortion and the Iraq War, both of which he has vociferously opposed.

Is vociferous opposition to the Iraq war an "orthodox Roman Catholic" position? Does he hold that position because it is Catholic? I don't see the need to for mentioning the church unless there is a direct connection. If we are going to phrase it like this perhaps we should review which positions of his are not orthodox. -Will Beback 21:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I think he always does write within a particular Roman Catholic natural law tradition, and I want to somehow reflect that, but my wording might not be the best possible way to do that. His opposition to the war is also at least on the borderline of a tradition of Catholic pacifism/anti-war sentiment (Dorothy Day, Roy Bourgeois, etc.) I'm open to changes but I do think his views on the war are informed by his pro-life Catholic views. St. Jimmy 22:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked up his position on the death penalty, but his opposition to it is more informed by libertarian political view than than Catholic dogma. Do we have a source that ties his views on the war to the church? -Will Beback 23:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's one article that cites the Vatican's position on the war Wartime Of course, I don't mean that he really longs to support the war but thwarts it due to being a good Catholic. I just mean that it ties into his overall Catholicism. Sometimes it's not possible to absolutely determine where religious convictions end and other convictions begin, but it's still fair to cite the religious influence. St. Jimmy 13:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC) Also, from his most recent Wanderer column: Faith in War St. Jimmy 13:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I still think we should be very careful about how we link Sobran's political and religious views. Perhaps it would be better to say something like, "Sobran cites Roman Catholic teachings to support his opposition to abortion and the Iraq War." -Will Beback 20:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Will, I would suggest a wording choice that makes it clear that those purportedly "orthodox" positions are what Sobran considers to be orthodox. As long as we attribute this interpretation of Catholic dogma to Sobran, there's no POV issue, right? Certainly we should make no categorical pronouncements about Catholic positions in the encyclopedic voice. Dick Clark 16:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The current wording is:

• Sobran cites Roman Catholic teachings as support for his views on abortion and the Iraq War (both of which he has vociferously opposed.)

To my eye, that appears to put the Catholic Church in a passive position, with Sobran doing the interpreting. If we can improve it more then by all means let's do so. -Will Beback 20:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I think there is some measure of objective verifiability to what Vatican doctrine is. Calling it good or bad, true Catholicism or heresy, would be POV, which is why I agreed that my choice of the word orthodox was a bad one. Still, Sobran's positions on most issues line up with the Vatican's position, and there has to be a way of making that point while respecting NPOV principles. St. Jimmy 23:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial Bits

Since somebody deleted my contributions without cause, I should explain some of my changes:

1.) "Sobran has also been criticized for his association with the Institute for Historical Review,"

What does "association" mean? I added clarifications. BTW, a LONG line of people have accused Sobran of anti-semitism over the last two decades, many with more evidience than discussed here. Aren't there better examples than one paragraph published by the Stephen Roth Institute and an off-the-cuff remark by Tom Palmer?

No there isn't any better examples. Sobran wrote some articles diagreeing with Zionist and Israeli government policies and practices - most of the intellectuals confused this with any Jewishness.

2.) Also, the writing style in the "current political philosophy" needed some tightening up:

a.: "Joseph Sobran went from identifying as a paleoconservative to advocacy of a libertarian anarchocapitalism. In December 2002 he announced his philosophical and political shift to libertarian anarchism in Sobran's,[3] where he cited inspiration by libertarian theorist Murray Rothbard."

The word "libertarian" appears THREE times. One should be sufficient.

b.: "Sobran cites Roman Catholic teachings as support for his views on abortion and the Iraq War (both of which he has vociferously opposed.)" He's a pundit. Being vociferous is part of the job description, so bringing it up is a bit redundant. Not to mention that this sentence is terribly awkward. --Yakuman

For wikipedia, not too bad an article. Though the body of the text is pretty low quality, the links as to what Sobran actually wrote are good ( only because Sobran wrote them, no credit to wikipdia ). If Sobran was anti-Semitic you would have little trouble finding vague examples - they would be BIG, CLEAR and hit you right between the eyes. If you have to look this hard then wikipedia is probably lying/smearing/just being wiki.

Nearly all of the links here are to works by Sobran or people who think like him. Surely there should be some balance? 75.57.67.207 04:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The recent (last 9 months) versions of the page represent a hard-won consensus. Nobody objects to critical views being mentioned as part of the whole, but I don't see what the grounds are for resurrecting a POV argument at this stage. 67.46.0.13 13:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Syndicated columnist?

My understanding is that Sobran is syndicated by his PR agents, and mainly "published" on the web. This article is basically a cover-up masquerading as a bio, so it's a bit funny to correct only one error. But I would like to know who the author of this piece purports is syndicating his columns, and who, other than the holocaust denial websites, is publishing him?

Adam Holland 19:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)