Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr.

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Contents 1 Archives 2 Citation style 3 Early Life 4 Quotes 5 New time periods 6 NPOV 7 Joseph Smith's last words 8 Oh, yeah! 9 Racism

This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. Joseph Smith, Jr. has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. This article is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) This article is part of Latter Day Saint movement WikiProject, an attempt to provide comprehensive and detailed information about the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism on Wikipedia. To participate in the project, edit this article, visit the List of articles about Mormonism, the project page, and/or join the discussion. For writing guidelines about contributing to the project, you may want to read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) To-do list for Joseph Smith, Jr.: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh Whole article: Find citation for every {{fact}} template. Remove all exterraneous details from sections which are supposed to be written in summary style. Implement bcatt's suggestions on NPOVing the article, inasmuch as the suggestions were reasonable, made in good faith, and for the purpose of strengthening the article. Include more inline citations (notes), where applicable, and/or where the fact could use a citation. Verify everything. Continue to improve brilliance of prose, and make more concise. 'Early life' section: '1827 to 1831' section: Add picture(s) (purely cosmetic suggestion). Add mention of his trusty white stovepipe hat! '1831 to 1844' section: Massive work! Generally get the article to synch up better with the extremely well-written History of the Latter Day Saint movement sections on this period. Remove or at least deflate the two paragraphs (and then one under the notes) regarding the noncentral tarring and feathering; can't we include something more encyclopedic and central to his life? Add reference to polygamy under Nauvoo section. Explain: What does temple-building have to do with Smith's life? 'Marriage and family' section: Section on polygamy Section on birth family 'Major teachings' section: 'Legacy' section: 'Notes' section: 'References' section: Prune obsolete material, move it to Works relating to Joseph Smith, Jr.. 'See also' section: Expand. 'External links' section: Expand external links. (Include at least some anti-Smith links.) Prune and alphabetize categories. Alphabetize interwiki.

An event in this article is a January 12 selected anniversary

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[edit] Archives

This is an index of archived portions of the discussion at this page. Archives help keep pages fast, accessible, and more usable. Scroll down to see current discussion for this article.

• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 1 - includes sections "Unresolved questions", "Joseph Smith image", "Disputed edits", "Neutrality", and "Vandalism"
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 2 - includes sections "Moroni's Visit", "Succession Crisis", "Succession Crisis", "Plural Marriage", "Importance of First Vision", "Using the words some and claimed", "Images", "Title", "POV edits", and "Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 3 - includes section "President Box".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 4 - includes sections "Quinn" and "Plural Marriage removal".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 5 - includes sections about Danites, JS as feature article.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 6 - includes sections about "Smith's Death", "Featured Article", "Comments from 66.87.28.66", "Plural Marriage/DNA testing", "Brigham Young transfiguration legend.", "Interesting question", "Introductory paragraphs", "References and footnotes", "Family and Marriage(s)", "King Follett Discourse needs detail", "Infobox problems", "New Bushman biography", "Proposed new public domain image of Moroni and Joseph", "Newsweek Cover Story", "More info on the jailing / lynching", "About featured status", "New split-off article covering Smith's early history", "Company seeking their share", "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. for peer review", and "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr as a Featured Article Candidate". This is every section (since the last archive) that was created before December 2005.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 7 - includes sections: Urim & Thummim, Dradamh, City Beautiful controversy, Spinoff articles, ...,Biased article, NPOV disputes, Plural wives section, Nancy Johnson, additional NPOV concerns.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 8 - includes sections: FreedominThought's NPOV concerns, Reverting edits by anonymous editors, Life In Missour section, Changes, good luck, Witnesses, Life in Missouri subsection, Jesus Christ to Jesus, Gathering of Israel subsection, Quotes that Mormons were considered abolitionsists, Inclusions by 67.9.135.139 and 65.70.157.104, Intro edits, NPOV dispute (Ongoing NPOV concerns), Sock puppetry accusations, Issue with Mormonlicious edits, NPOV: Mission Impossible?, More intro edits, In before bcatt reverts me, That's right, it needs reverting, No other Religious Leader is treated with such a negative POV
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 9 - includes sections: "An interesting quote, Archives, Is The South Park Episode Accurate?, NPOV Tag revisited, The dispute history, Improved, Quotation Marks, Recent edits, Joseph Smith, Smith's wives and children, Eldest son dying, Edited introductory paragraph, Edits on Smith's Death, Editing section "1827 to 1831"

• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 10 - includes sections: Polygamy: Cultural or religious heresy?, Was it Moroni or Nephi that gave the plates?, Rigdon needs earlier reference in article, Comments of User:Hoboken, Re: Archive 9 - Is South Park quote Accurate?, Masonry, Joseph Smith diaries, Removed paragraph, Polygyny, Fawn Brodie & Bushman, Bullet-list in introductory paragraph?, His family supported Strang, Succession boxes, Citations, Crystal gazing sentence removal, References, Recent edit on D&C 111:4"
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 11 - includes sections:Haun's Mill, Death, Masonry, First Vision, Splitting the article, witnesses, Media section, SouthPark, Reasonss for POV tag, Mob persecution, 1826 trial, Church of Christ, Myth of Joseph Smith killing two men at Carthage"

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[edit] Citation style

The unusual citation style used in this article makes it incredibly difficult to read. Why can't the normal WP <cite> tag be used? Fragglet 00:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early Life

Does anyone know if Joseph Smith was ever baptised into another denomination before his "revelations"? I seem to recall mention that there was a baptismal record entered for him in the Methodist Church when he was an infant, but I can't recall the source.

It is Anti-Mormon folklore based on a misreading of source documents. Smith was enrolled in a methodist sunday school class - classes that typcially led to the enrollee being baptized, however Smith withdrew from the class before baptism. Because his name was on the sunday school roles, critics claim that he "joined" the methodist sect, however, there are no records of any methodist ordinance, nor of Smith being baptised prior to May 1829 (when he was baptized by Oliver Cowdery - see D&C Section 13). Most churches consider baptism the gate into membership of a church, although nowadays people may or may not particpate in such ordinances to join a denomination. It was common, and still is for investigators of religious denominations to attend church meetings (and even sign roles, etc.) prior to joining a church. he simply attended their meetings - as he did with the presbyterians - baptists and others (although he didn't sign their roles or enroll in one of their sunday school classes). For more references on this, visit Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.#Smith.27s religious background.

Smith's mother was presbyterian which does perform infant baptism, but she joined when he was in his early teens, and didn't belong to an organized religion before that time. If I remember correctly from her memiors and biography of her son, she was told that one of their children would be dammed as it died before it was able to be baptized - which led to Joseph Smith Seniors dissafection with organized religion the lasted until his son organized the church. None of the Smtih children were baptized by any records I've found until they were old enough to request it. For more information, refer to The History of Joseph Smith, Jr. by his Mother, Lucy Mack Smith [1]. Hope this helps. -Visorstuff 20:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. He did, apparently join a "probationary class" in Palmyra in his teens but after a while he announced he was quitting because all churches were false, and then he attempted to join a similar class in Harmony (as Visorstuff discusses). But he never actually joined the Methodist church. There is one statement by a man named Fayette Lapham who interviewed Smith's father in 1930, who claimed years later that Joseph, Jr. was baptized in the Baptist church in Palmyra. But Lapham's memory of the facts may have been distorted over time. Somebody else, a guy named Mitchell Bronk, does corroborate that Smith attended a Baptist church for a while in Palmyra, but Lapham is the only one who said he was actually baptized there. COGDEN 21:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

From what I've read in the Book of Mormon, apparently he wanted to be baptised by a priest of sorts from a non-mormon church. However he told him he had no intentions of joining that church.--Animasage 21:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The Book of Mormon says nothing about Joseph Smith's baptism; in fact, it does not recount any of the events of Joseph Smith's life, but rather the history of some of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Maybe you are talking about some other book? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I reverted and thus deleted a quote supposedly from Hale today. It was just plopped into the article without any introduction. If one is going to introduce a quote, then it may easily be appropriate but taking a quote and introducing it, particularly when it is controversial, when be best. Additionally, why is Hale appropriate or worthwhile. Did he know any of the subject firsthand? No. Was it hearsay? Yes. What is the value of the quote? Possibly to describe how inidividuals felt about Joseph Smith. It is not, however, a quote about facts or reality, which the editor appeared to be using it. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 16:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New time periods

Any comments on how I divided the time periods? It seemed the most logical division to me, but we can always fiddle with the year boundaries. COGDEN 22:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Smith was shot before the Latter Day Saits Settled in Utah. So I don't know how he was a military force in the west. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.168.142.226 (talk • contribs) 19:43, 16 January 2007.

Illinois was considered the west at that time. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 23:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I am new to WIKI so you can take this for what it's worth. I have also looked through some of the archives and have seen that there have been some heated debates over NPOV issues, so I will go ahead and say some of you might not like what I have to say. Here it goes anyway. In the initial summary of Joseph Smith I don't think it is a very NPOV to say that his "teachings were similar...to other false movements of his time". That is saying his teachings were false and you can not prove that with facts, anymore than anyone else can prove it is true. Saying it is false is very much a slanted point of view, as well as saying he was a con man with the statement "his ability to con what was to eventually become millions". Who can prove it was a con? You either believe him or you don't, So state the facts, but leave the opinions out. it is fine to say he was a contraversial figure, that is true. you can say he started a religion that would come to be known as mormons, that is also true and unbias. But some of these other statements are bias with the intent on pursuading readers, which I believe is not the intent of WIKI. I also would hesitate with the frequent use of the word "cult". I know the defenition of the word, and that technically there is nothing wrong with that statement, but there is an inherently negetive connotation in that word, again that would try to persuade the unbias reader. In the interest of NPOV I would suggest removing the "false" and "con" statements, and try to use a diferent word than cult. CHEERS! mookkick 04:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think you stumbled across a vandalized version of the article. This article is watched by several stout LDS wikipedians who work hard to keep it accurate and NPOV. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the article could do with more attention to fact. I began to reread the article today and I found several instances of conjecture and misstatement of fact. I am dismayed that we have not been more diligent about reviewing this article. The current article is not factual and carries with it a tone best left to religious tracts, but not for an encyclopedia. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 21:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Smith's last words

I deleted an edit of today that stated the following:

"Smith's last words from the window are reported as being: "Is there no help for the Son of a Widow?" This is also known as the Master Mason's secret call for help, which other Mason's must respond to. Due to this report, speculations have arisen that Smith believed the mob to be organized by the Masonic Order in order to punish him for disobedience."

First, it is unfortunate that the editor is either creating a myth or repeating it. Joseph's final words as he fell to the ground outside the jail were, "O Lord, my God!" (HC 6:618). When making edits of this caliber, editors would do well to document or reference their edits. It will clear up their own misunderstandings before making edits and it will also ensure that your edit has a much stronger probability of contributing something worthwhile. Cheers. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, the probable misunderstanding comes from a lack of understanding of Masonry and fabriation of what Joseph Smith said. Both Taylor and Richards' accounts both report that as Smith fell from the window, he called out "Oh Lord, my God!" Some have noted this is similar to "Oh, Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?", a traditional Masonic call for aid from fellow Masons (see Hiram Abif). These last recorded words have led to speculation that his statement was a call for assistance from any Masons that may have been in the mob, particularly by anti-Mormons. The problem I see with the allegation is how does calling out to one's God turn into a much larger statement. I recall reading even one Mormon woman that supported this allegation. Personally, I find it lacking. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Another interpretation I've heard was that Smith was taunting any members of the mob that were Masons, possibly making them feel guilty for killing a fellow Mason. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 14:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Storm Rider :)

That edit that you deleted was my edit. I read it in two books at the Masonic Library in San Francisco. The only reason I said it wasn't verified is because I don't have the cite handy. But I intend to go back and get them. I'm totally new to this, but couldn't you just have contested or asked for cites instead of deleting my contrib? Also if anyone happens to be in San Francisco before me, the Library is at the top of Knob Hill and has an entire historical section on the ties between Mormons and freemasonry. Captain Barrett 19:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Captain, when making an edit on the discussion page just click the "~" key four times; it will sign and date your entry. Also, using a colon will indent your edit. Each new edit in a thread will have one additional colon to ensure that each is easily identified as a new edit.

When there is something controversial it can either be cited for needing a reference. However, when someone has a degree of expertise in a given field it is acceptable to delete it. Some editors may not bring the deleted statement to the dicussion page, but I generally do so. I would encourage you to go back to the texts you read to make sure. What we know from those in attendance is what I have stated above. In addtion, there is another article that goes into more depth than this main article, Death of Joseph Smith, Jr.. Articles become overly long and when sections get too large they are broken off into their own article such as the section in question. You may want to read it and edit that one instead of this one. Cheers. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 09:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Another good habit to prevent your edits from getting deleted like that is to use the edit summary and explain your reasoning. An unexplained edit from a new editor is often assumed to be a test edit (or worse). wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 14:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oh, yeah!

I leave for a few months, and I come back to look things over, and this article looks incredible! Great job everybody!

I really think that this article is almost ready for peer review, followed by a FAC.

A few things I see:

• Pruning the references section of anything that's obsolete
• Including, under 'family' section, a subsection on his parents and ancestor's family, and also tightening the prose in the plural marriages section
• Further summarization, if possible, of the biography section: it's still a little too long, in my opinion.

But seriously, great job everyone. A lot of the lingering issues that were present when I took my leave have been addressed, and I'm highly encouraged by what I see. Although I won't be actively working much on improving the article myself, I will be checking up more often on things.

--Trevdna 00:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racism

I am not sure if this issue has been taken up before but it seems only right to me that since Joe Smith wrote a lot of stuff about the people of America that were here before the Europeans that those people's view of him and what he said about them should me mentioned somewhere. As a Native American who believes myself to be resonabley well educated I would like to mention that most of what came from the hand of Joe Smith is considered by many in the tribe as very racist and ethnocentric. Almost the entirety of the Book of Mormon is dedicated to telling Native Americans about ourselves as if we did not already know. There is no Liturgical material to be found. Why isn't this mentioned in the article. It is a major issue from where I stand.--Billiot 06:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be fine to include it if we have material to cite. Otherwise, it is original research, strictly prohibited on Wikipedia. — Frecklefoot | Talk 11:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a friend who is both Native American and LDS. She and her family don't consider the Book of Mormon to be racist. There is no clear connection between the people in the BoM and your specific tribe(s). It was a common belief during that time that Native Americans were part of the lost tribes of Israel. There certainly were (and still are) racist attitudes of the "whites" towards natives, but I don't think you would find it limited to Mormons. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 14:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)