Talk:Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.

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 Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr. was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 2007-04-02
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Who cares about his high school grades and batting average on the baseball team? Perhaps this could be replaced with "subpar student."


Perhaps I'm getting my Kennedys mixed up, but isn't Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr. also supposed to have been concerned with bootlegging during prohibition? Assuming these allegations haven't been entirely dismissed, we should be able to make a NPOV mention of them? Our page for Kathleen Kennedy states the allegations as flat fact. -- Finlay McWalter 15:25, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'd say it should be moved here if true (I've taken it out of the Kathleen Kennedy article since it's irrelevant to her). It seems to me I have heard that about Joseph, but I can't remember where and can't find a source at the moment or I'd add it. - Hephaestos 15:31, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
There's plenty of google hits for "joseph kennedy bootlegger", but I don't know how much faith we can put in them. I do think it's fair to say that there are "persistent allegations" that he was involved with bootlegging. -- Finlay McWalter 15:36, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Yes; we could attribute it to the Sins of the Father book at least. - Hephaestos 15:41, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why are the pictures missing? Colipon 05:00, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Discussion is from a long time ago, but there is certainly no serious evidence he was a bootlegger, he cunningly acquired the licences to import medicinal alcohol and predicted the passage of the Consitutional amendment through the required number of states that lifted Prohibition. By the 1920's JPK was a very wealthy and politically ambitious man (remember he had thoughts of becoming a Cabinet Secretary and quite possibly the POTUS_ and did not have the motive to be involved in manufacturing illegal alcohol. Makes for a nice story for hatchet job biographers but just isn't the case. The truth is less interesting. 144.132.89.151 01:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Well here is an insight, from a police offficer in a recent paper, y explaining the two tier legal system, and why some people have been recorded with special treatment in history. By Andre Lichtenfeld, ex-Thunder Bay policeman Jan 8, 2007, 00:57 Expoliceman Two tier Legal System

Readers beware !

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 18:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

His career as a bootlegger is amply documented in the book JFK: Reckless Youth. I might add that this article is inaccurate and slanted; it is basically a (poor) attempt at hagiography. Although Hamilton's book (previously mentioned) is about Jack Kennedy, it is a trove of information about his parents as well--by far the most thoroughly documented account of Joe Kennedy's career. His advocacy of a separate peace between England and Nazi Germany is what got him in trouble with FDR; the claims below on this Talk Page are--like most everything in this article--apparently written with very little knowledge of the man's life. 66.108.4.183 06:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

FALSE: "His career as a bootlegger is amply documented in the book JFK: Reckless Youth. " I just checked the book and there is no statement or hint that he was a bootlegger. Rjensen 07:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Spanish Civil War

I think that this article may give Joe Sr. entirely too much credit for keeping the US out of the Spanish Civil War. Even had his reports from London strongly urged intervention, condemned Franco, or downplayed Communist influence in the Republican movement any significan US involvement in the conflict would have remained extremely unlikely. I also quibble a bit with the statement about Americans being strongly for the Republicans. At most Americans sympathized with Madrid; certainly no clear majority and nothing approaching 60/40 until '37 or '38 when intervention was completely out of the question. Not a serious flaw to the article, just something future editors may want to consider.

I concur--JimWae 20:24, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph and Rose Kennedy's children today

So one of the most influential men in the country: 1. Rode the bus. 2. Solicited medical advice about his daughter's mental instability from the bus driver. 3. Subjected his daughter to a radical medical procedure based upon the recomendation of the bus driver.

That makes perfect sense.

Additionally, why is this section predominatly about Rosemary (who today is dead)?

Since every child of Joseph Kennedy has their own wikipedia entry, I propose that this section be removed. The List of descendants of Joseph P. and Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy should be sufficient.

--134.53.176.101 22:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


I inserted a Section Dispute notice because there are specific claims that need sourcing. As well, this needs a rewrite to properly clarify his actions as legal at the time and cthe changes that followed the Pecora Commission investigates for the U.S. Senate. - Ted Wilkes 22:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

_________________________________________________

Regarding the length of time that Kennedy served as Inaugural Chairman of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, since the Commission was evidently created in 1934 and this article says that he "served several years and resigned in 1935," how does 1 - 2 years of service equate to "several years?" _________________________________________________

[edit] hitler

didn't joe meet hitler and visit germany during his role as ambassador to the uk? WookMuff 00:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

no he did not meet Hitler. Rjensen 02:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh i got confused between real life and a book i read. It was Joe Kennedy Jr. That travelled through germany and they both apparently admired hitler WookMuff 09:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
neither one met Hitler and neither one admired Hitler. The Letters edited by Smith make that clear. Rjensen 16:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
i said apparently, but you are saying that edited letters are reliable indicators of two dead mens thoughts? if neither of them admired hitler, why was kennedy such an advocate of appeasement and, once war broke out, a non-interventionist? Also, joe jr. and john BOTH visited hitler's germany. so... you are obviously a big fan of the kennedy's and don't want unsubstantiated facts to mar them on the encyclopedia. But saying that they weren't hitler admirers is silly. I am talking pre-WWII. I am not saying that after the war joe went around saying "Hitler rocked!!!". I am sure all the "proof" of joe sr.'s hitler admiration is just part of the world jewish conspiracy! WookMuff 23:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The private letters between Joe and Joe Jr make clear they did not like Hitler. FDR appointed Kennedy in 1938 to try to keep the US out of any European war, which Kennedy tried to do. It was FDR who changed his mind. Rjensen 23:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

who is smith and how did he come to "edit" the personal corespondence that you are using as evidence? WookMuff 04:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Amanda Smith edited Hostage to Fortune: the letters of Joseph P Lennedy; she is Joe's grandaughter; she has a graduate degree in history Rjensen 05:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
and no agenda WookMuff 10:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see, so we are then absolutely certain, that she wouldn't expurgate the hitler bits...the obvious and blatant lying that goes on makes me sick sometimes... 195.134.68.6 09:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] McCarthy's relationship with the Kennedy Family

About a sixth of this article is devoted to McCarthy's relationship with the Kennedy family. Is that necessary? Was McCarthy an especially important figure in JP Kennedy's life? I dont' think so. I suggest trimming this section to bring it in accordance with the importance of McCarthy to JP Kennedy. It's worth about a sentence.

McCarthy section is vitally important. The alliance shaped both men and indeed the sons JFK and Robert Kennedy as well. Rjensen 18:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] False statements re Antisemitism

Joe did not like Jews, but Wiki shouild not be giving out false info. I checked every one of the references in the section and deleted repeated falsehoods. For example, Kennedy was NOT a "close friend" of Father Coughlin: they never met or talked; Kennedy once sent him a short thank you note after he was mentioned on one broadcast. Kennedy worried against FDR causing armageddon, not the Jews. Etc. Rjensen 20:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It does not say he was a "close friend", you are deliberately setting up a straw man argument. It says he was a supporter. In fact, as it turns out, Leamer himself uses the phrase "friend": "Joe was friendly enough with the demagogic priest that he wrote Coughlin in August ..." on page 93.

I am looking at each of the citated references on Amazon.com's "Search inside" feature. They appear in each of the books I have cited. Perhaps you are using different editions than those available on Amazon. I am assuming in good faith that you actually looked them up as you claim. Check your indices. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Leamer only says he wrote a friendly thank you note, once, after being mentioned on a broadcast. Leamer does NOT say he was a supporter Coughlin at any point. (Coughlin was at first a supporter of FDR) I did use the Amazon editions--the deleted statements are not in the books.

I have restored with explicit citations, quoting directly from the books in question. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Joe Dinneen, a staffer of the Boston Globe, conducted interviews with Kennedy in which Kennedy made a number of anti-Semitic comments in an effort to exonerate himself from the charge of anti-Semitism. When Dinneen wrote The Kennedy Family, he was urged to remove these quotations from the book by John F. Kennedy himself. Dineen complied.[1]

Please explain how pressure by Joe's son, while Joe was still alive, to remove unflattering references from a biography about Joe, is irrelevant to his life. That seems facially absurd to me. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I too am mystified as to why Rjensen is attempting to remove this material. Jayjg (talk) 22:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, because it currently says nothing about Joe Kennedy, that's why. Exactly what did Dinneen say about Joe? What did Joe actually say? Rjensen 22:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You honestly believe that this has no bearing on Joe Kennedy? an article about a person need not consist entirely of statements expressly made by the subject person. Efforts to suppress public awareness of Joe's statements is 100% relevant to Joe. Why are you so intent on whitewashing these details? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes I honestly believe a non-story that was not published and whose contents are unknown is not much help to users. Including it degrades the quality of the article. Just what are "Joe's statements"??? please tell us and don't keep hiding them Rjensen 00:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what they are, it matters that they were stated by Kennedy and recorded by a historian and interviewer. As such they are a part of his life and another record to his already large predisposition toward antisemitism. Guy Montag 00:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Had Issue"

In the section on Joe's children, I didn't understand how "had issue" or "no issue" after each of the marriages was supposed to be interpreted. Does it mean that he "had issue" with this marriage or that? If that's what it means, it doesn't seem like very important or relevant information. There should be at least be a clearer way to say it (so and so married, over his objections?) And of course he had "no issue" with Edward's marriage in 1992 - he was dead!

Strongly agree; removing this until someone can replace it with something that makes sense and is relevant. Happywaffle 07:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the comments on "issue" have been removed, but, for the record, "had issue" simply means "had children," in the language of lawyers. That's all it means. 66.108.105.21 17:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Knight of Malta"?

In the categories section of this page, it has Joeseph Kennedy listed as a Knight of Malta! I suspect that this is vandalism, considering that if it were true, it would probably be listed elsewhere in the article. I will erase it (also listed as a Knight of Malta is Rick Santorum, by the way, so I think that there is a serious vandal problem here. --Freiberg, Let's talk!, contribs 00:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be true, as well as for Santorum (see evidence posted on that talk page). — PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

I think this is a fine article, but there are a few things to address before I feel it meets GA standards. Some of what follows is minor, but the citations and the family tree issues are important.

  1. The main thing that needs work is citations. The paragraph about anti-semitism has good citations, but the rest of the article has almost none. This is an absolute pre-requisite. I would think most points would be easy to cite from a standard biography.
  2. Please rephrase the sentence that starts "Too disbelieving" in the "Early Ventures" section -- as it stands I'm not completely clear what it is intended to say.
  3. Without dates on the early part of the "Crash" paragraph, I can't tell whether it might be better placed after the "Liquor" paragraph -- someone who knows the subject might take a look and see if these should be swapped around.
  4. The reference to "outsider status" in the section on the Ambassadorship is a little jarring. There is no mention of ostracism of any kind in the earlier part of the piece, except in the very first section, on his early life. I assume there is some source for ongoing outsider status even to this point of a very successful career; a more complete reference to this might be better than the brief aside given.
  5. The reference to Al Smith could use an additional explanatory word or two. As it stands, if you don't know who Smith is, you have to click on the article to find out why he is being referred to, so it doesn't clarify. I don't know this material, so my suggested wording may not be the best, but how about something along these lines: "He sat out the war on the sidelines, along with other opponents of Roosevelt such as Al Smith, eager to help the war effort but never invited."
  6. The ancestors section is too big. I don't see a need for both the table and the tree; and the tree is much too big for the article. It might be more usefully placed in Kennedy family. I'd suggest at least pruning it to grandparents, parents, children, and grandchildren, along with siblings.
  7. Finally, the lead could use a little work. It is really too short as it stands, and doesn't mention some major areas of the article. Take a look at WP:LEAD for some guidelines in this area.

Overall, the article is in good shape, but the citations, lead, and tree are must-dos. If you fix those problems, please bring it back to GA. Mike Christie (talk) 00:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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